Does sleep really begat sleep in babies?

[Reastie]

Am due dc2 next month.

Dd1 sleep was a nightmare, we got in all sorts of terrible patterns eg until she dropped her last daytime nap I’d have to walk her in her buggy to sleep. Every single day. Often it would take over an hour of walking before she’d finally give into sleep. She also never slept the long hours at night the internet told me she needed. She seemed tired but couldn’t switch off and get to sleep. She’s now 8 and it’s only in the last couple of years things have got settled and easier.

I’ve been reading sleep books in prep for next baby. I need to get things better this time for my sanity! The books seem to speak of sleep begatting sleep. Was that the case for you? I’m now wondering if dd didn’t sleep enough and that was the issue. We would wake her up from naps so she was tired in the evening but then she would never go to sleep in evenings. I’m wondering if our steps to try to make things better, like make her bedtime later because she wouldn’t go to sleep fir hours every evening were the wrong way round and we should have been making bedtime earlier and naps longer. But when we did longer naps she then was even worse at night so I’m clueless really. Dh never believed the sleep begats sleep thing...

Yes, but it's a fine line, mine were a pain in the arse, had to be walked to sleep for well over a year and I had to keep walking of at least an hour. Anything over 2 pm and it would go tits up though so I had a choice of twins that are miserable and grumpy and go to bed or, twins that are really happy but don't go to bed until 10.

I think every child is different!

Yes, if they are over tired it is hard for them to 'switch off' enough to calm and settle to sleep. I would allow decent sleeps during the day but have a cut off time for the last nap, depending on age and bedtime it could be 2pm or 3.30pm.

Absolutely. Good naps during the day are totally necessary or it all goes horribly wrong.

Re the longer naps and worse at night time, it could well just have been the change in routine. It can take little ones days or weeks to settle to a new routine.

Yes, I think this is true. A good daytime nap and not-too-late bedtime made it more likely that my DC would sleep well at night, whereas they tended to have disturbed nights if they were overtired.

Of course you can take this too far. It's no good trying to put them to bed / nap if they're not tired at all.

All children are different. My son is an amazing and easy napper but very wakeful at night, despite going to sleep easily at bedtime. I find the “sleep begets sleep” thing is like all the people who assume that because he wakes a lot at he doesn’t have a “good bedtime routine” - it may be true for many babies but my son does have a good routine and goes to sleep quickly and easily but it doesn’t stop him waking up. Like I say, they are all different and much of it is luck of the draw and depends on their personality

From 8 months of sleep agony I have done to the conclusion that what it means is good sleep begets good sleep. It doesnt mean 'get them to nap as much as possible' which is what I've been ruining my life trying to do.

I think unfortunately, you can inadvertently teach babies to fight sleep. Yes, good nightime sleep follows good day time sleep. It becomes a habit.

How can you inadvertently teach them to fight sleep?

By waking them up from daytime naps (in the hope that they'll be more tired at night time) you are kind of training them to fight sleep and stay awake. It also means they don't get used to dropping back off to sleep during natural light sleep cycles where they wake briefly and drop back off to sleep again - we all have these cycles.

Really? Gosh. Well that’s one of the few mistakes according to MN that I have managed to avoid then. Shame for me it hasn’t translated to waking less at night but there you go.

Eh? Thats not right at all. No one is suggesting you limit naps to one cycle.
Most sleep stuff I think is just a matter of opinion but that's just incorrect.

100% for my dd.the more sleep she has in the day the better she sleeps at night.

My dd is 15 months and has 2 x 90min naps a day, and has done since 6 months and sleeps 12hrs at night

Can she have a word with my son? He has had the same nap pattern as your daughter since 7mo and sleeps 12hours a night but in rather smaller chunks than I would prefer

But 2x90 nins at 6 months is less than they are 'supposed'to have - I think that's why we have to be careful with the idea of 'more sleep'. My 8 month old would sleep for 6 hours plus in the day if I let him.

Is it? I have forgotten already. My son used to have 3 or 4 naps per day before that depending on how long they lasted, usually on me, in the sling or next to me on the bed and rarely longer than 45 minutes. Then he suddenly started going for 90-105 mins Twice a day in the cot at 7mo, and there’s no way he would have squeezed more daytime sleep in than that - certainly not 6 hours but that is where they are all so different.
But the number of people with “good” sleepers who are so keen to find (often bonkers) reasons why it must be my fault I have such a wakeful baby at night...

I'm desperate for my son to go into his cot. He only naps in the sling, pram or car at the mo.

I sympathise. I've just a poster tell me it's my fault my son doesnt sleep and it's a horrible feeling. God knows I've tried everything! Its questions like 'have you tried a bath and dim lights' that make me smile. Short of drugging him I'm out of ideas!
How old is your LO?

He is just 1yo. And yes, he has the “good routine” that is “key”, and he gets plenty of daytime sleep, and he eats well, and he even has lavender drops in his bath, the little prince that he is
He is very very slowly, with lots of two-steps-forward-one-step-back progressions, going from a baby who needed to be held very close to sleep (even in hospital, in that first sleepy 24-48 hours everyone talks about, he screamed the instant he was put into the crib) to one who will sleep on his own for part of the night and in ever so slightly longer chunks, and I am sure he will get there eventually. But it is very very hard on me, and I reserve the right to wish he would wake less at night sooner. And anyone who says I have created this situation can fuck right off.

Hear hear.
Mine has lavender drops too. Feck all difference they make!!

I always found the later they went to bed, the earlier they would wake up.

The earlier they went to bed, the later they slept.

I know it seems totally illogical.

Never worked for my DS. If he had a nap at nursery after he'd stopped napping at home then he wouldn't sleep until later. He still woke up at the same time in the morning, so he was just deducting nap time from overall sleep time meaning he slept for a shorter time at night. He didn't ever get over tired either, as a baby he'd fall asleep and as a toddler he'd just take himself to bed or to the sofa when he was tired. His sleep was naturally at the minimum of the range of total hours for his age, I figured that's what he needed as he wouldn't sleep longer.

Hey, I have 3 dcs and they all sleep really well. 7-6 from about 6 months.

I always focussed more on a big morning nap, often putting them back down just a couple of hours after getting up (as soon as I saw the first eye rub) and then 2 shorter sleeps, going down to 1 in the afternoon.

However, I make no claims that this is the secret to good sleep. I may well have just been a really lucky bastard

It was also a bit of a pain as I was quite restricted in terms of going out. None of them slept well in the car or pram so it meant a lot of time at home but sleep was really a priority for me as I don't do well when I am tired

Good luck!

“sleep was really a priority for me as I don't do well when I am tired”

You see, your post makes a lot of sense and you clearly aren’t a dick about it because you get that it may well have just been luck, but saying this kind of thing just doesn’t make sense to me. Sleep is really a priority for me and I don’t do well when I’m tired but I don’t have a great deal of choice about it. I mean, it’s really really shit being this knackered. I didn’t give birth and think “well, sleep just isn’t a priority for me so I’m going to make sure I have a baby that wakes up frequently”. My son often has really long naps in the morning. Doesn’t stop him waking frequently at night.

Fascinating reading. I’ve read so many different sleep books I’m just feeling confused about what to do and praying I have a good sleeper!

I think that if you have a naturally “good” sleeper you are unlikely to do anything to fuck it up, and if you have a naturally “bad” sleeper there is a limited amount you can do to improve it and what you can do is usually about maximising your own rest so you can survive. The babies in between, however, maybe there are things you can do that will have a positive or negative impact on their sleep habits but it’s very individual I suspect. It sounds like you’ve done your time with your first baby though so I hope you get a sleeper this time round!