CIO sleep training advice

[Swedemummy]

Long time forum reader, first time poster.

I have a 4 mo LO who was sleeping so terribly (

I'm not against CIO but your baby is very little. They don't only wake for food but comfort or if they're teething etc... My 6mo has a very similar nighttime schedule to yours and sometimes she sleeps from 7pm til 2am, sometimes she's up at 9pm. In all honesty if a 10min feed will get her back to sleep I'd rather do that than let her cry. It's when they're waking every hour (or more!) that it's an issue really. He's clearly not expecting to be fed back to sleep every time he stirs or he wouldn't manage 3.5 hours.

I had to Google the method you mentioned and I can't say it's something I could do.

gb.education.com/magazine/article/weissbluth-method/

My DD is not far off 4 months and most nights wakes every 4-5 hours but sometimes 3 hours. Sometimes a little comfort and reassurance gets her back to sleep, sometimes a feed. It's completely normal for babies this age to still wake throughout the night and they often go through phases of waking more often that usual. I read recently that at 4-7 months they realise that you exist even when out of sight, so they know you are gone. But without understanding the concept of time, they don't know when you are coming back. Personally if he's not seeking food at 2.30am, I'd just offer a little comfort to reassure him you're still around and he will naturally stop waking in time. He's still very little and this is just part and parcel of their development.

^^sorry, when he wakes at 11.30pm but not interested in feeding.

4 months is too young for sleep training - regardless of how I feel about CIO - and there is a massive sleep regression at 4 months which will make baby wake frequently. Their sleep cuddles are changing to resemble an adults and they don't know how to cope with it.
He's likely to still need regular feeds during the night for some time. My son woke every 90 minutes until he was over 1 or sleep through the night until over 2, night weaned at 18 months. Adults wake at night for a variety of reasons, it's unrealistic to expect a child not to, especially one who has no concept of time and won't understand why sometimes you ignore him and sometimes you come back. For complete honesty, I think CIO is cruel at any age but I would be giving the sane response to someone who hadn't trained their child and who was just wondering why their child was waking.
For your own sanity, I would adjust your expectations, honest. Babies are biologically designed to wake at night and to leave them to cry doesn't teach them to sleep, it just teaches them that you don't care enough to come when they cry. They still get elevated levels of cortisol (stress hormone) and for example think of the old Romanian orphanages full of babies that didn't cry - it wasn't because they were 'good', it was because they'd learnt there was no point in crying because no one came. Your baby's wake schedule looks normal, just love them and cuddle them, otherwise why have a baby in the first place?!

Sleep CYCLES, sorry!

That looks like brilliant sleep compared to my DS - he is 18mo and still wakes 1-2 times a night. Don't have too high expectations for a 4mo - that is still tiny!

Don’t do it they are too young!!

I'm unsure what you're having issues with in the night. Your routine seems pretty good, my 5 month olds is:
Bath, bottle and bed by 6pm (self soothes, no sleep training needed)
Dream feed at around 9-9.30pm
Awake for a feed at 2.30am - this one really varies, some nights she sleeps through, some nights she doesn't, I just go with her.
Up for the day between 5-6am.

I'd be wary to try and drop night feeds so young as there is every chance your baby is waking because they need it. If my baby stirs I never let her get to crying, I go in, change and bottle, then back down within 15 mins.

I did CIO at five months as nothing else was working. (Well, I could bob DS on left shoulder only to reggae music. All night. That was the alternative). It worked in one night. BUT I still had to do night feeds until I persuaded him to drop them at around seven months by sending my DP in to offer water at the 1am feed.

I’m currently going through the fun of sleep with my second, who’s 6 months old. I wish she slept like yours. I hate to say it but I didn’t think your babies sleep was bad at all. Mine loves to dodge a nap unless I’m right next to her or she’s out in the pram. And even the next to me isn’t close enough by night 😂
It’s biologically normal for babies to wake frequently. Especially at that age. Breastmilk is digested so quickly that they commonly do get hungry sooner.

With my eldest I fought against it all and was a very stressed parent. This time round I’m just going with it. And eating my body weight in hobnobs

Also over Christmas is a tricky one if you are choosing to use cio methods. Many babies would naturally look for more comfort in new and different environments and situations. I wouldn’t want to deprive my baby of that. But nor would I want to distress them with stop/starting. Hopefully someone who has used these methods will be able to offer better advise.

I strongly believe sleep is essential for growth and development so am in no way against sleep training or controlled crying but CIO is not appropriate for a baby as young as yours. At 4 months, they don't yet have the ability to soothe themselves so can get really distressed crying, they start to develop this after 5/6 months at which point controlled crying can be considered but most tend to opt for alternative methods until older still.

That doesn't mean you can't gently teach your baby to sleep for longer stretches but your presence and touch is really important when still so young. My second is currently 11 weeks and ebf - he was recently waking every 1-2 hours for a feed at night when I knew he didn't need to be fed so often. I knew he could do 4 hour stretches but was waking for comfort feeding which in turn would give him wind resulting in waking shortly after to be burped and then want comfort of feeding back to sleep again for the whole cycle to keep repeating itself. So when he woke within 4 hours of the previous feed, I would get up and cuddle him back to sleep each time. If 4 hours had passed, I would feed him. Within a week, he was staying asleep for 2x4 hour stretches.

I have also been gently training him to settle to sleep whilst in his crib with me patting him from a couple of weeks old but not allowed any crying as he is just too young for it.

Given age of your baby, your routine is acceptable but if you know he can do longer stretches without feeding, there is absolutely nothing wrong with helping him do that. Just because someone else has tolerated frequent night wakes until their child was a toddler certainly doesn't mean you have to as well. I feel that some on MN sleep board (not referring to anyone on this particular thread) consider themselves to be better parents just because they have let their child wake them all night for 2-3 years (or longer). However, I wouldn't do cry it out when he is still so little.

So sorry for late response everyone and thank you so much for all your input. I’ve decided to not do any cio on holiday and as some of you have suggested focus on trying to soothe when he wakes up after only few hours. Yesterday was back to waking every other hour but I put it down being in a completely new place and having travelled all day, poor thing. Fingers crossed for this evening. Thanks again!

4 months is too young for sleep training. CIO is not a method of sleep training, it's just putting them to bed and ignoring them completely.

Also at 4 months I would expect a breastfeeding baby them to wake up for a feed.

@willweeverfindout thanks for sharing, nice to know you tried cio and it worked. In terms of night feeds - do you mean you didn’t drop any but always fed when baby woke up? Or did you do any cio during the night?

@Swedemummy I'm curious why you want to carry on CIO if your baby is now sleeping quite a good amount for their age?
A 4 month old waking up every 3.5 hours is good! My 5 month old still has a night feed and a wake up for a feed during the night so I think letting your baby cry when they wake for a feed is probably not the best idea at 4 months.

Just to add, I'm not against CIO training by any means, but I don't think you should be trying it during the night when they are waking for a feed which is perfectly normal at this age.. you've cracked the self soothing so I'd think that's enough of the training for now

That should have said a dream feed and then a wake for a feed

I disagree that every 4 month old waking up and crying during the night always wakes up for a feed. Food is everything during the first few weeks of life but after 6-8 weeks (as the baby develops cognitively and, as an indicator, learns to smile) other factors (e.g. comfort) become equally important. After 3 months of age a healthy baby probably cries for other reasons more often than he/she cries for food.

Traditional paediatricians (hated by proponents of attachment parenting) will say that as a general rule a healthy thriving baby needs 1 night feed after his/her weight exceeds 6 kg (13lbs). A healthy baby fully established on solids and having 3 meals a day and a balanced diet can sleep through the night without feeding. This rule of thumb definitely worked for my DD. Of course, there may be occasional exceptions but if I had been OP, I would have followed the approach recommended by @riddles26, i.e. I would have tried to resettle the baby by cuddling or shushing/patting and started to slowly extend times between feeds.

Jesus Christ almighty. He is 4 months old! Shame on you. He's hungry and needs his mum.

@swedemummy as I recall I fed at roughly 1,3,5 am overnight. The CIO largely only worked to establish the long first part of sleep. Then a couple of months later sending DP in with water (ie DS couldn’t smell me) at the 1am feed resulted in two cross nights where DH was shouted at for maybe ten minutes then DS dropped night feeds except the 5am one which by then I figured he probably was hungry. He would have this then go straight back to sleep until 7:30/8 in bed with me.
DD on the other hand was far easier. I used the cio method again, but she simply gave up all night feeds after one night and a thirty minute cry. She was/is a big baby though. Again, she was waking pretty much every 30-60 minutes through the night. Grim.
I didn’t leave them for long if we were away from home though. I think I just quickly fed to settle and then back in bed. HTH

I didn't know about CIO. Now I've read about it I think it's appalling, especially for such a young baby. Though he may not always need feeding, when he wakes he does need cuddling and reassurance. Being close to you is very important.

My DD sleep trains her DS. Started at 14 weeks. He's now 21 weeks. BF up til 12 weeks.
Routine as follows:
Wake around 7.30 7oz feed. Play for an hour. Nap for an hour. Play for an hour. Repeat every 3 hours, so feeds 7.30, 11, 2, 5. After 5 o'clock feed, stays up. 7pm get ready for bed- bath, cuddles, feed. He usually takes much longer with this feed and is very sleepy! Bed for 8 - 8.30 and sleeps through til the morning. Sometimes he wakes in the night but just talks to himself for maybe half an hour then falls back to sleep. Wakes around 6.30 - 7 and talks to himself in cot for around 1/2 an hour again before getting up. All his daytime naps are in his cot. He uses a Sleepyhead but is getting a bit big for it now.
He's been in his own room since this started, with a camera and a movement sensor, so my DD doesn't disturb him. He's put straight down awake ( apart from his last feed when he's practically comatose!) and is really good at self soothing. He doesn't cry himself to sleep or cry when he wakes, usually just when he's been playing for a while and wants his milk.
He's a very contented baby, loves cuddles with his family, bouncing like crazy in his jumperoo, talking to everyone in a sing song voice, and generally thriving.

How could you leave your tiny baby to cry? It breaks my heart! I wish I hadn’t read this - I feel sick!

I'm not a fan of CIO personally due to forming negative associations with sleep. I've been using the little ones sleep programme and have found it quite good although you need at least 2 weeks to get the routine going. DD is 4 months and sleeps 6-6 with a feed at 10/11pm. The idea is to ensure that she has enough naps of the right length and good feeds during the day as well as a good bed/bath routine.

Self settling is also really important and CIO isn't actually teaching that skill as much as hoping they wear themselves out. We use lots of cues to tell her it's nearly bed time from her bath, massage, dimming the lights, feeding in the same place. It works much better IMO.

I don't like being a keyboard warrior but this is heartbreaking to read. What are you going to do when your baby starts teething (which will be soon if not already) and cries for you in the night then? I'm so sad for your little one. Parenting is a round the clock commitment not just a day time activity, leaving babies to cry alone for our convenience at night is sickening.