Does removing the breastfeeding-to-sleep association work?

[Ilovebuttons]

Hello, sorry if there is already thread on this, but I'd love to hear what you wise mums have to say on this subject. I have a 5 month old who wakes frequently during the night and has trouble settling and napping (he is not keen on sleeping generally!). I have always breastfed him to sleep - trying to get him down any other way is not at all popular, but I'm willing to put in the effort to change things if it will help him sleep longer. Any success stories/advice?!

Well - it's meant too. I'm not entirely convinced though it has kind of helped us. But it was very hard to get him there; meant forcing a bedtime routine on him that he really was unhappy with for a couple of weeks. I think it's worth a try - try the no cry sleep solution for tips - but if it's too painful for either of you, stop. How the baby goes to sleep isn't necessarily linked to night wakings, tho it does often seem to be. We actually cracked the night wakings first but not til he was 9 months old. And now he's back at it again 9 months later.

thanks for that cockles, how did you crack the night wakings?! They're the real issue for me, just don't really know what to do. I have the no cry sleep solution and have (half heartedly I admit) tried her technique for removing the your nipple before they're fully asleep with no sucess. I don't even mind if he wakes a couple of times in the night, but it's every 2 hours or so at the moment.

yes - definitely. my ds was sooooo attached to my boob as a sedative. He would sleep in the day only in his buggy (not bf to sleep after abt 3mths) but at night would bf to sleep and then wake 1 - 2 hourly to be bf back to sleep again . I was exhausted, he was exhausted but i loved bf and was reluctant to stop. However, at 8mths things were getting critical and i decided (lump in throat) to give a bottle at bedtime and deal with the consequences. He did not bat an eyelid at the bottle but it didn't send him to sleep as I had suspected it wouldn't. he cried etc. and it felt awful but i knew i had to break the habit for him as it was doing nobody any good. He continued to wake in the night for boob but far less often and after abt 4-5 nights was sleeping through for around 10 - 11hrs. It was a hard decision but sooo necessary for my sanity and the sake of my ds, dd and dh. hth

I think it works, but I also think it's a combination of things.

As they get older the boob is no longer the be all and end all to them, so they will be more receptive to falling asleep without being fed. Also, I think for some babies it takes time for them to learn to sleep for long periods of time. However, I think you can speed that process up by removing certain sleep associations.

I say certain sleep associations as I believe nearly everybody has some type of sleep aid, whether it be bf'ing, a milky drink, or reading a book. It just depends what you and baby are happy with.

I removed bf'ing to sleep, but replaced it wíth rocking and singing. It took time and a few tears of frustration from me and ds, but it worked and I think it was worth it.

If you want details of what I done, let me know.

also, fwiw, it was my mum who made it all crystal clear for me. I told her, during a teary, desperate conversation that the only thing that would send ds to sleep was my boob and that i was stuck in a vicious cycle, she pointed out (not sleep deprived obviously) that it was not sending him to sleep, it was why he was waking up! It was a moment of clarity for me and my turning point.

thanks so much, it's brilliant to hear about your experiences. I'd love to hear how you did it coleyboy

The night I stopped BFing to sleep was the night DD started to reliably sleep through. She was never a terrible sleeper but would wake at least once for the breast. I replaced the breast with a very clear and rigid bed time routine. She gets bath, into PJs and sleeping bag, BF, up to draw curtains, bedtime story (same one every single night), bed. The first night she did cry when put in bed awake but settled after about 20mins of CC. That night she slept through. The next night she cried for a couple of mins and then slept through. Now she wimpers for her cot if she is really tired and is happy as soon as she is laid in there .

IMO breaking the BF/sleep association was the key for sleeping through the night and having naps in her cot.

i think it is highly reasonable for babies to want some comfort at 3am, it won't last forever. however, i found the best thing when i had enough was to get dp to resettle ds, no danger of milk there!

I should add that reading the same book every night has been a great effect. She only gets that book befor sleep and now she hs such strong associations with it that she goes still and floppy as soon as I get it out. It works at nursery too where the carers read it for her.

Are you ready for this... apologies in advance for the length!

I started off getting to know his sleep cue's. Once I spotted them I would start to feed him downstairs (whether he was hungry or not, he would feed!), then as he got drowsy we would go up to the nursery and continue the feed. Whilst feeding I would rock the chair (a cosatto rocking chair - the best thing we bought!) and sing softly to him. Once asleep I would put him in his cot. At first he would sleep for 15 mins, but after doing the same routine 3-4 times a day, the period of sleep would increase. If he woke up when I put him in his cot, I would rock and sing again, but not feed.

Once this was going well I would do the whole feed downstairs, then go to the nursery for rocking and singing. Then put him in his cot when he was asleep.

Eventually the sleep association became going to the nursery and rocking and singing, so he no longer required the feed.

Then, he got so used to the whole sleep routine I could put him in his cot half asleep and he would get himself off to sleep.

It took time, but it has worked really well for us. The first few days were the hardest as it didn't feel like it was working - even though it was, albeit slowly.

It enabled ds to sleep better in the day, get to sleep at night, sleep through the night, and it set him up to get himself off to sleep.

Hope this makes sense!!

IME it's very difficult to remove the feeding-to-sleep association, but you can add new sleep associations. Then, if you use only the new associations, and always fit them in between the feed and the putting down to sleep, then you can get the baby to go to sleep without bfing. I'm in the middle of working on this with ds2 - it's been a very long haul but it's worth the effort.

I find that if he has not napped in his cot at least once during the day then it's harder to get him to go down in the evening. So I try not to have him take every nap in the buggy (very tricky when there are 3 school runs to fit in to the day).

I certainly think that the way he falls asleep in the first half of the night affects how he wakes and falls asleep again later in the night - the bit of the night that's particularly ugh for me!

your method sounds great coleyboy, I'm going to try it - it actually sounds do-able. thank you! and I bet you're right about a nap in the cot helping prettycandles. I can't tell you how much of a boost it is to read all your comments - love it!

BTW, Ilb, I find that the NCSS Pantley Pull-Off does work, but you have to do it methodically and alertly - no good trying to get the hang of it at 3am! I always feed lying down if at all possible, day or night, and at night or before a nap ds2 would alwys try to feed himslef to sleep, but he now sometimes comes off the boob himself and sleeps next to me instead, almost exactly as she describes Coleton doing. He never did that before I got into the habit of doing the pull-off when he had fallen asleep. That was probably my first step in weakening the boob-association.

Coleyboy how old was your LO when you did this? DS is BF to sleep at night, which I'm fine with for now (he is 14wks) but thinking about trying to change this when we move house in a couple of months, when he will be going from crib to cot (and maybe in his own room, if we can cut down on night wakings!).

I started when ds was 12 weeks old (as his daytime naps where non-existent unless he fell asleep whilst feeding), and he started to sleep through when he was 14 weeks.

DS is now 10 months old and still sleeping well - for now!!!

The biggest piece of advice I would give is be patient and stick with whatever method you use.

Oh, and ds nightime (and my) wakings were less frequent when he was in his own room, as we are both light sleepers.

just wanted to say I have been using nearly all your suggestions (greedy I know!) and I'm already seeing some improvement. Making sure he gets lots of sleep in the day (in his cot) seems to be really helping, but I think the main thing is that now I have a plan I can stick to - I was making things worse by being really inconsistent before. I'm so grateful for this site and the lovely people who take time to help other mums!

Oh Good news!!!

I know what you mean about being inconsistant, I used to bounce from one 'solution' to another and didn't get anywhere.

I had the same problem and after 6 months of utter sleeplessness decided we had to do something about it. I took him to a cranial osteopath which really helped - not so much with the getting to sleep but I think it helped him sleep more deeply - before that he seemed to havde a 45 minute sleep cycle.

At the same time we stopped co sleeeping (he'd wake up every 2 hours for a feed) We introduced strict bedtime routine with lots of cuddles, a final breast feed and then bed while still awake.I expressed some milk and put it on a breast pad in his cot which really soothed him. Since then he's only been waking once a night and the last couple of weeks (he's now 8 months) he's slept right through. Good luck - I was in despair, thinking we'd never crack it but we did.

hmm I think that good night was just a blip, he's basically still waking every 2 hours. Arrrgh!
Slightly off the point, but what is your take on dads with full time jobs helping at night? My partner thinks he shouldn't have to because he has to go to work. Obviously looking after the baby is a job too, but he says I could sleep when he naps in the day (I can't! In fact I'm finding it harder and harder to get to sleep at any time - not helping!) In a way I see his point, but I feel resentful that he only gets the nice side of being a parent - he's happy to show him off and play the devoted father to friends and relatives but has no idea about what I go through. He told me off for saying I felt like I didn't have a life of my own, saying it was an awful thing to say?! He has so obviously not experienced that 3am desperation.
phew - moan over, I feel better now!

Definitely think working partners should do their share! At a bare minimum they can do Friday and Saturday nights. But mine does more than that - we both work part-time now, which changes things a bit, but even when I was still on Mat Leave he did more. On really bad nights we split the night in half so I do til 2.30am and he does til 6.30am. Or if I'm really tired or ill I'll sleep in the spare room with the door shut and he'll be on duty and only bring LO to me if he can only be calmed with a bf. It is hard if you've got to go to work the next day and be reasonably functioning, but it's really hard to be stuck at home with a sleepless baby too.

And if you can't sleep when LO naps(I hardly ever can either), that's simply a fact which needs to be taken into the equation. It's no good saying you could sleep - if in practice you don't sleep then you're not getting any extra sleep so you need more help overnight. Or at least afternoon naps at the weekend.

Sorry, being a bit strong but I feel really strongly about this. I know so many men in RL who say what your partner does and I think it's rubbish!

I totally agree! I have a strange guilt thing though, where I find it really hard to make him help. I think lack of sleep makes me doubt myself and I wonder if I'm really in the wrong... Thanks for that, it's what I need to hear!

buttons - what works for dh and i is this: when he is home in the evenings, i got to bed really early - 8 or 9 ish. he then does the 11pm feed, and gets to bed b4 midnight. by the time lo wakes again, normally 3ish, i have had a good 6 hours sleep. dh then gets to sleep midnight-7am. i know this depends on your lo's sleeping patterns, but perhaps you could find a similar system so you both get a decent chunk of uninterrupted sleep.

Buttons - i am in exactly the same position as you. I sleep with 6 month old dd in her room and so dh has never ever had a disturbed night. DD was ill at the weekend and wouldn't take medicine so i got him up 3 nights in a row to help - he is in bits today. have stopped feeling guilty now ! the problem i never thought about when you do it the way we have is that my dh cannot settle her if she is upset as she has only ever had me for that - bedtime, illness and all naps, the worse kind of sleep association! it is difficult to sell the idea of sharing the bad times aswell as the nice bits but i will not do it this way next time. dd is normally v happy and content though so i am very lucky. I will echo the message about being consistent. I made the mistake of thinking dd was so well established in her routine i could make changes - i should not have done this as things go haywire pretty quickly and difficult to get back to where you were.

yeah, I've mad a rod for my own back in many ways! I tried to get dh to settle our ds a couple of nights ago and ended up taking over because he was just working himself up into a massive state (dh and ds) - took me ages to calm him down (ds only!). I was up EVERY HOUR last night - hell! This was with ds in bed with me too - I think he's got a cold and is hating the heat, but it doesn't make it any easier knowing that! dh has actually suggested I go and sleep at my mums for a night and he can take over, which sounds wonderful, the only problem is ds is exclusively breastfed and won't drink from a bottle or cup... I think we'll try bagsundereyes suggestion first - I'm going to buy some ear plugs today!
I don't actually know how I'm functioning on so little sleep. Why aren't mums given more credit - we do the hardest frickin job in the world!

Hi,ArtichokeTagine. How come it was so easy for you? Only 20 mins crying for your LO? I tried to break my son's sleep association with bf, he cried for 2 hrs and ended up vomiting. Then I gave up....what can I do???