Does sleep training cause long term damage?

[Needsleepnow87]

I’m thinking of doing some interval sleep training (DS is 9 months)...but I’m worried that it will cause long term emotional damage.

Does sleep training negatively effect your bond with baby or cause issues later on in life?

I’m talking about for older babies (nearly 1), not newborns!

I do like the way you completely avoided my questions there, crazycatlady. Because they are unanswerable, maybe?

@riddles26 yep exactly the same as us. She now knows that being in her cot is non negotiable, and she's actually happy to be in there.

Calm down @riddles26 I wasn’t even replying to my you 😂

@crazycatlady5 you may not have quoted me but you were referring to those who were (rightly) annoyed with your response. @NameChange30 also doesn't leave her child to cry so that they don't call out when upset because there is no choice (the way you implied all those who have sleep trained do in your first post).

Also, FYI, adding laughing emojis to your replies doesn't make them the slightest bit amusing or take away from the nasty attitude you have shown towards others

Could I offer a different perspective?
I'm from a different culture and had never heard of sleep training before living in UK.
Back home it's very " relaxed" bedtimes to allow for parents to spend family time with children etc. Co sleeping is the norm. Toddlers usually move to their own little room once they start school. Or continue to co sleep until they are ready to move out.

Mine co sleep still at age 3 plus. We all sleep well at night. Is she happier for it? Don't think so. Never met a grumpier clingiy child. Am I a better parent for getting more sleep? Tearing my hair out at regular intervals usually while mainlining coffee. But will we continue to co sleep? Yes ! Because as a family and a parent that is what I'm comfortable with.

Without any concrete evidence or studies to suggest otherwise it's really difficult to say what's right and wrong regarding sleep training. What you will however hear is a lot of anecdotal evidence.

At the end of the day it'll probably be a personal choice unless or until a medical body suggests sleep training is detrimental.

I agree with riddles I find the sleep training debates on here quickly get hysterical with the anti sleep training folk. I don’t presume what we did was right for everyone, but it it certainly wasn’t abuse.

We sleep trained both in the 10 month range - end of ML, ft work, we couldn’t function without decent sleep.

I don’t like all this ‘yes it’s hard for you but...’ so it’s ok if you get divorced because you are both exhausted and row constantly, it’s fine if you make multiple tiredness related mistakes at work as you’re on your knees - as long as the baby isn’t sleep trained!

Another “well said” for all your posts riddles!

I started with PUPD before progressing to gradual retreat and still pick up DS when I feel he needs a cuddle - I think it’s reassuring for both of us tbh!

Thanks @NameChange30 

I'm in exactly the same boat as you - we've also been doing gradual retreat for a while (although not managed to retreat past the door at night since the 8-12 month sleep regression period and multiple bouts of teething). She sometimes cries for a cuddle 5ish minutes after going in her cot - I take her out and cuddle her for 10 minutes and then put her back in and she goes to sleep happily. I have to admit, I absolutely love the cuddle too and she goes down so calmly after it that it's definitely the right thing to do.

Completely agree with your last paragraph @SnippitySnappity. I sleep trained my daughter earlier than I ever anticipated because her sleep was so bad that I felt it was affecting her development. However, had I done nothing then, I would have had to consider something when I was going back to work if she was waking multiple times a night every night as errors in my line of work could mean harm to someone else's child which is unthinkable to me. (I'm sure all these anti-sleep trainers would rapidly change their tune if they knew I were the doctor treating their child and chronically sleep deprived to the point where I struggled to function safely)

Those who have done it successfully, how often did you need to re-do the training? Do you recommend any particular methods?

I ask because we seem not to have had any long term improvement and have tried 5x (as I posted upthread).

I am not willing to do CIO but maybe CC.

I need to fix DS' sleep as it is affecting all of us. I am on my knees, DH is very tired, and while DS is happy enough, he is frequently too tired to function during the day, after nights where he has had unhealthily small amounts of sleep.

I plan to do CC myself in a couple of weeks, while DH is away. I think I need to do it (rather than DH) as DS frequently won't settle with me, wanting to feed all night long. I'd love to cuddle and feed my lovely little fuzzy baby all night every night, but we are all seriously so tired we can't go on.

Schwanen
How old is your baby?
What have you done so far?
Are you still feeding at night?

On advice from my child psychologist friend, we started by cutting out night feeds completely (nb DS was 9 months old and a healthy weight) - seems drastic but she said it’s actually kinder because the consistency means they understand more quickly that they won’t get milk. When cutting out night feeds you do anything you need to comfort and settle the baby, for us it was basically cuddling/rocking a lot and playing him twinkle twinkle. The first night of two was hard as he cried a lot but we were obviously comforting him and he adapted quickly, within a few nights he was settling easily. The next stage was reducing the amount of rocking/holding we were doing which we did gradually but it was bloody hard work as we had a few weeks of basically holding him all night between us. Not recommended! Things have improved since we’ve got a bit stricter about putting him down which has involved a bit of crying (with us to comfort him). In hindsight I think we could have done it sooner but we were hampered by illness, teething etc which meant I wasn’t prepared to.

(Personally there’s no way I could have done it without DH to share the work and for moral support!)

I agree with what namechange said Schwan - if you've got a health visitor you trust, they may be able to work out a plan - I had the nursery nurse attached to my HVs come out and work out a plan with me on sleep training.

riddles my first daughter's behaviour was (and still is, even at 7) so much more challenging when she's tired we felt decent sleep was vital for her too - she was happier after we sleep trained her, she can't manage her emotions when she's tired and overreacts. We let her stay up for odd kid related events and the following few days until she resets are always tough.

Parenting - there isn't a one size fits all answer - my second DD wouldn't co-sleep after she was 8 months old - as soon as I stopped BF at night, she wouldn't co-sleep, she'd just make it clear it was time to get up so that wouldn't have worked for her.

@Schwanengesang

OK, so I’ve just gone back and read your first post:

“DS is 15 months. He is chronically & acutely sleep-deprived. On a good night he only wakes every 45 minutes, most nights he can wake 20-30 times, sometimes with a battle to get to sleep (12.30am bedtime anyone?) or 2-3 hours awake from 2am. He sleeps about 20 minutes during the day despite all attempts to get him to sleep more.”

I thought my DS was a terrible sleeper but but yours is worse. It’s quite shocking tbh and it must be so so hard to cope with. Sympathy and respect to you for surviving so far.

What’s he like when awake, other than tired and probably grumpy?! What’s his health like generally?

I wonder whether riddles26 might have a perspective on it (as a paediatrician)? I’m not a medical professional but I would want to rule out any underlying medical issues. I would be going to the GP and begging asking for a paediatric referral.

@SnippitySnappity that's exactly how my daughter is. Also, if she's given the opportunity not to sleep, she grabs it with both hands! I kept thinking she would eventually grow out of it and fall asleep when she was exhausted but she just doesn't - the world is far too interesting. Teaching her sleep associations has meant she knows when it's sleep time now and goes to sleep happily.

@Schwanengesang the advice you've been given so far is great. I used a sleep consultant when sleep training my daughter and it was an incredible difference. After the first consultation, I was a bit as the routine I was given was the same as that in most baby books (which cost so much less) but it was the documenting logs and having someone analyse them and tell you what you could change that made all the difference. She also helped me successfully create sleep associations and introduce a comforter.
I used PUPD but that is not recommended after 7-8 months as it is thought to be stimulating. Gradual withdrawal is the gentlest method post 7-8 months or you can use CC with appropriate intervals. Most wouldn't recommend CIO now fortunately.
I haven't had to fully redo the training but she has needed more help than usual in falling asleep when unwell/teething/going through a developmental leap. She sometimes also needed comfort in the night during these phases but not always. As I said earlier, she's consistently slept through from 13 months but sleeping through was never the aim for me - i was happy with a wake up (or 2) as long as she went back to sleep quickly after feeding and got enough sleep.

Namechange30 unfortunately with that much information, I can't rule in or out any medical condition. It could be a case of a difficult sleeper which could be improved with sleep training alongside an expert or there could be something else bothering him.

I would advise speaking to GP as they have the full medical background. If they have ruled out any underlying medical cause, I would consider sleep training with the help of a sleep consultant/night nanny. The advice and hand hold will make all the difference.

I agree it does sound so tough and I have so much sympathy for you, I don't know how you are managing to function.

@Schwanengesang
You might find this article helpful? (The website/blog is one of my favourite sources of sleep advice as it all seems very sensible)
www.babysleepscience.com/single-post/2014/11/05/Interpreting-Night-Wakings
Especially this part at the end:
“Off cycle wakings and ultra frequent wakings should be discussed with your chlld’s pediatrician and interpreted as discomfort. Look for signs of overheating, illness, pain or teething, reflux or allergies, or itching.”

Cross post. Yes that makes sense riddles. See GP to rule out any underlying medical cause and if none then use a sleep consultant. Although the cynic in me wonders if a GP would be thorough or if they would be dismissive... personally I’d be picky about who the appointment was with!!

Also, yes, sometimes we can tell with 10 year olds if sleep training has taken place. Especially when we have to attempt to undo some of the issues these children have by holding nurture groups.

What? You have nurture groups for children from loving stable homes who have been 'damaged' by a few nights of sleep training when they were babies? I call absolute bollocks on that.

I have worked with nurture groups. Trust me, those children had a bit more on their plate than infant sleep training.

And I always think that those who refer to 'attachment disorders' when talking about sleep training, don't actually have a clue what 'attachment disorders' actually are.

But why is sleep training so much worse than other things that are encouraged on MN? A recent thread about someone who couldn't get their toddler dressed and out the house had all the posters encouraging her to force the clothes on her child, which would take a lot of force, or to drag the child out of the house half naked! Other threads are about leaving children to cry at new nurseries, or to force them into car seats even if they are screaming.

Why are some things damaging to a child and not other things?

OP this whole area is highly emotive and riddled with pseudoscientific bullshit.

I do believe those people who have concerns about sleep training are coming to it from a place of good intentions. Of course it's right to be responsive to your baby. I dislike the vocab of 'training' an infant as it sets the child up as a problem or an adversary. Few people would recommend full-on crying-it-out as it's so distressing for everyone involved.

BUT there is sod all evidence that sleep training methods lead to attachment disorders or mental illness. Nobody has ever yet shown me a decent peer reviewed study that gets close to establishing even a systematic correlation, much less causation. What evidence does exist on attachment problems tends to derive from cases of extreme, chronic neglect and abuse. Making a leap from there to presuming lifelong damage after a couple of stressful hours over a few nights in a happy caring home, well...

Taken to extremes, this stuff is just another stick to beat mothers with (and sell parenting books). Follow your common sense, look for moderate solutions, and do what works for your baby and you.

Thanks to NameChange30, riddles26 and SnippitySnappity. Started gradual retreat method tonight (having previously been feeding to co-sleep initially at bedtime). First put down was 25 minutes of crying. Will see what the rest of the night holds... (talking about nights at this time as I am close to the antipodes of the UK)

@riddles yes I look at her classmates and their parents seem to get away with keeping their dc up til 10, that would be a nightmare for dd and she also loves staying up and never ever falls asleep without her routine (except on longneck car trips if she’s been up late).

Not all children are the same - my dd is a very determined and amazing girl but she has to have a routine set as she just can’t do the self regulation and can’t get away with burning the candle. Dd2 otoh, sleeps much, much less and isn’t at all phased by late nights.

Just a mention also to ask your HV if you have a good one as obviously free - I agree with riddles that reassurance is very useful, mine were good on this although many have had unhelpful ones.

schwan good luck!