Does sleep training cause long term damage?

[Needsleepnow87]

I’m thinking of doing some interval sleep training (DS is 9 months)...but I’m worried that it will cause long term emotional damage.

Does sleep training negatively effect your bond with baby or cause issues later on in life?

I’m talking about for older babies (nearly 1), not newborns!

I did the Ferber method with my eldest when he was about that age - maybe a bit younger. I was going off my head from lack of sleep and was probably unfit to drive and certainly unfit to work (I remember using my work phone as a calculator and being flummoxed when it didn't work).

He was sleeping through the night after about 3 nights. He was the same after the sleep training as before - same lovely cuddly baby. DH and I were a lot better though.

He is 21 now, was a happy baby, happy toddler, very laid-back adult, has no problem sleeping and no problem with relationships.

I’m with Crumbs.
My friend is a child psychologist. She works for the NHS and helps parents of babies and children with sleep problems (among other things). She told me that teaching a baby to self-settle is good for their emotional development, because it allows them to learn some independence and resilience. We were talking in the context of a baby dealing with the slight discomfort of struggling to sleep, by the way, not serious distress, which I don’t think you’d expect a baby to deal with by itself.
I’m in favour of gentle methods, I prefer gradual retreat to controlled crying for example as I prefer to be physically present to soothe my baby when he’s crying.
I was very anti sleep training to begin with, couldn’t tolerate allowing my baby to cry without picking him up, and did very very gentle attempts at sleep training, but it wasn’t working.
After months and months of sleep deprivation (parents and baby) we were absolutely desperate, I snapped and decided I was not going to rock the baby to sleep any more. He protested a LOT every time I put him down and it was horrible (very upsetting for me) but it was only one bad night and he got it. Now he’s sleeping much better and he’s happier during the day as he’s better rested. Plus DH and i can be better parents.
I think a baby who is cared for and securely attached will experience no negative long term effects whatsoever if left to cry for limited periods (with regular reassurance from parent whether CC or gradual retreat) over a few nights. I think the effect of sleep deprivation on the baby and the parents’ mental health is much much more detrimental.
I have had feelings of hatred towards my baby as I’ve been so exhausted and frustrated. That’s not ok.

Completely agree with all of the above who have said that the stress of sleep exhaustion on a parent and even on a baby who hasn't learnt to sleep and is over-tired can have a much more detrimental effect on a family as a whole and the children it than a couple of nights of controlled crying, assuming it works.
We have found with our children that a couple responded well and learnt to sleep very easily with controlled crying and that the other didn't and it made her too distressed. She has eventually learnt to be a good, but still light, sleeper as an older child. If nightmare sleep can be sorted, sort it!
Children cry for all sorts of reasons, and as long as you keep going back to them I'm sure it isn't any more harmful than any other thing that you have to teach them they can't do and they have a bit of a cry over. It's just hard while you are doing it.

This may or may not be relevant to you depending on the reason you’re considering sleep training. This may be relevant if it is a case of frequent wakings during the night rather than a baby who won’t go to sleep in the first place.
I absolutely did not want to do controlled drying with either DS1 or DS2. The two were very different in their sleep though. By 8 months DS 1 was waking at two regular intervals for feed, by ten months he was sleeping through (used ‘wake to sleep’ technique to help him drop his feeds). DS2 however was still waking every hour and a half or so at the same stage. I found it difficult to decide if he actually wanted me or was just having a winge and getting himself more comfortable.
I solved this by finding a monitor with a ‘mute’ setting. It’s a BT one. When on the mute setting you hear nothing unless baby cries loudly and for a good few seconds, maybe 5, and when this happens the monitor beeps to wake you. When I started using this DS 2 is now on a similar schedule to his big brother. At the other wakings he just settles himself back to sleep.
I now realise that me going in and cuddling him every time he woke to have a grumble was probably just annoying him! I also found he’s happier sleeping on his tummy now as he can move around more easily and get himself comfortable.
Hope that’s helpful.

Do any of you know whether and how you were sleep trained? Can you tell how any other adult (or even 10-year old) was dealt with in the night, by the negative way they form relationships or whaever? No, I didn't think so.

I also think it's horribly privileged to categorically state your belief that crying or having a parent do a "bad" thing to the baby destroys their relationship with that parent and all other relationships the baby will build for the rest of her life. What about the babies who need painful medical procedures? Those whose parents need to hold them down to be anasthestised for much-needed surgery? Or those whose are involves uncomfortable or even painful routine processes like injections? If your child was faced with such a situation, would you hestitate in case it destroyed her model of trust in relationships?

When my babies wake in the night, they cry. Presumably with all the cortisol and all the rest of it. I don't understand why waking multiple times a night for possibly years on end and crying each time, is superior to a few nights of crying and then healthy sleep with no crying at all thereafter.

In short, it's entirely an individual parenting choice. There is no convincing evidence to suggest short-term or even long-term harm. Children need very little - they need food and comfort and rest and love. I believe sleep is vitally important not just for the sleep-deprived parent but for the sleep-deprived baby too.

Our method OP was staying in the room and soothing whilst DS stayed in cot and screamed. Ditched that after one day as our prescence made it worse and so we left the room for gradually increased time over two days. Maximum time left to cry was 10 mins. In that time he would quieten down and start up again, it was hard but I tried to keep it to 8-10 min intervals.
It took three days and now I go in immediately as I know if he's really distressed. Had to do it again after after sickness/teething (that was fun) but now every night he chats himself to sleep and also just chats in the morning before we go get him up.
It's one of the best things we every did but it is really hard at the time and it's not for everyone.

I think one thing to do is look at the reason people sleep train. What your baby is doing is actually completely developmentally normal. Yes, it’s hard for you. It’s by far the hardest part of parenting. But he can’t help it he is doing what is natural. Sleep training doesn’t help him sleep through the night. He will wake just as often but will have learnt that calling for you gets him nowhere. What a sh*tty message to receive at such a young age.

I personally think it is barbaric.

I also find the link between the huge rise in mental health issues in countries that favour sleep training over those that don’t very interesting.

🙄

What's with the eye roll? She's right.

Sometimes babies have to cry. I have twins. They're too big now to safely hold them both at once when they're flailing around and upset. Frequently throughout the day one of them is left to cry. Similarly sometimes we are in the cry and they start up. I can't stop the car to.comfort them so I keep driving. After a few minutes they call down. I do hope this isn't doing them serious damage because frankly I can't see what the alternative is.

sycamore - that's interesting, I usually read these threads and have a similar thought from the opposite direction. I know I was sleep trained (CC, although I think with longer intervals than some people choose) and I also know I have an avoidant attachment pattern and it has made some aspects of my life very difficult. And obviously, obviously sleep is only one aspect of the parent-child relationship. But I always read this and know my mother would be one of those confidently saying "it does no harm... mothers need rest too... better parent in the daytime if you've had better sleep... you can't tell any difference at x age".

I try to avoid commenting because my view doesn't help exhausted parents and at the end of the day, we all have to do what we have to do to get through. I'm grateful I was able to comfort my child at night (every hour of every night, until he was 2.5) until he outgrew that need. I think it's been good for him, and for me. And most likely we would have been fine regardless? But I'm genuinely grateful, looking back, that we didn't have to find out.

I don't really buy the stuff about teaching or better yet 'allowing' them to self-settle. I didn't teach my child to walk by taking my own hands away, I didn't teach him to talk by ignoring his pre-verbal communications, I didn't teach him to self-soothe by withdrawing my comfort.

Also, yes, sometimes we can tell with 10 year olds if sleep training has taken place. Especially when we have to attempt to undo some of the issues these children have by holding nurture groups.

@sycamore54321 has hit the nail on the head perfectly. There is no convincing evidence either way on sleep training but there is a shedload of rock solid evidence on how damaging chronic lack of sleep is to a developing mind, not to mention the dangers of severe chronic sleep deprivation to a parent who is driving etc.

To say you are 'messing with cortisol' shows a complete and total lack of understanding of what cortisol is and how it works. The only way you can genuinely 'mess' with cortisol levels is by giving cortisol injections I appropriately to a healthy child. Cortisol levels rise and fall over the day and they rise in response to excitement as well as stress. The study measuring cortisol has drawn no meaningful conclusions whatsoever.

And just to clarify as @crazycatlady5 seems to think time and time again that
sleep training = abandoning a baby to cry until they fall asleep
You do not need to leave a baby to cry alone to sleep train if you don't agree with it. I have never let mine cry or get worked up on her own. There are a variety of methods to sleep train - when I did it with my daughter, she learnt that when she woke up, I would be there for her and would pick her up (I did PUPD) but she still had to go back to sleep - this wasn't negotiable. Of course she protested at first, as she was used to getting her own way and dictating when she slept (hardly ever!). However once she realised that she didn't get to choose anymore, she started sleeping much longer stretches at night and napping well. From then onwards, she was a much happier baby during the day when awake and her weight gain accelerated (despite dropping down from unlimited to just one night feed). She is 15 months and has been consistently sleeping through the night for the past couple of months.

I come from a country that doesn't favour sleep training. Let me assure you that mental health problems are just as prevalent but they are stigmatised and hidden away. Also, the lifestyle there is very different to that here (for a start, it's unheard of for a child to go to nursery until they are 2.5-3 years old).

Sleep training doesn’t help him sleep through the night. He will wake just as often but will have learnt that calling for you gets him nowhere

Two genuine question about this.

Do you think the baby spends as much time awake during the night, but instead of crying they just lie there and stare silently at the ceiling?

Does a baby who has been sleep trained and learnt that a parent never comes never cry at any other point of their day - in pain, sad, just pissed off - because what's the point?

I can't imagine either scenario actually happening in real life.

I haven't read enough about cortisol levels to comment on whether sleep training has an effect on a babies development or mental health. But the idea that a baby in an average loving home (not one who has been abused or neglected, in which case it is tragically understandable) has "learnt" that an adult won't come so just stops crying strikes me as bollocks, considering that sleep trained babies still continue to cry during the day and night like all other babies do.

Valerrie
No she’s not right - clearly I (and others) disagree, hence the eye roll. This is nonsense:
“I also find the link between the huge rise in mental health issues in countries that favour sleep training over those that don’t very interesting.”
It’s a huge unsubstantiated leap that confuses correlation with causation. There is no evidence whatsoever that sleep training causes mental health issues. It’s just scaremongering by smug people who want to make sleep deprived parents feel guilty. Sleep training is not “barbaric” and frankly it’s not a respectful or measured way to discuss the subject. Even if you disagree with sleep training methods and would never do any of them yourself, it’s not adding anything constructive to the discussion by using emotive, blaming language like that.

I'm a paediatrician and unfortunately see the effects of abuse far more than I would ever want to. I find it absolutely despicable when people throw about terms like 'neglect', 'abuse' and 'barbaric' for sleep training babies in an age-appropriate manner in a loving home. It's fine not to agree with it and do it yourself - there are other acceptable parenting practices I choose not to use with my child but to insult other parents who are bringing up their children in way that works best for their family is nothing short of disgusting. It is also a massive insult to the poor children who have genuinely suffered from abuse and neglect.

@Valerrie I do not believe for a single second you are referring to healthy children who have been sleep trained using an appropriate method for 2-3 nights in their life when you say that you can tell sleep training has taken place once they are older. The children you are referring to will have had a lot more problems to need to attend such groups.

When you sleep train using a consultant, the first thing they tell you is to really listen when a baby cries and distinguish between the different sounds they make. Are they protesting to the changes you are making? Or are they genuinely in pain? Do they want a cuddle? If they want comfort then - of course - you give it to them. Likewise if something is wrong. If they are protesting, there are options on how you deal with it and you don't have to leave them to cry alone at all.

Well said riddles. Thank you for posting.

Incidentally the thing that causes me the most angst as a mother is interpreting the cries. I find it so stressful to hear my baby crying that I respond to protest cries out of fear that they are pain or distress cries. It’s been a learning process for me and it’s a work in progress!

@crazycatlady what countries are you speaking about? I often see Japan on here touted as some Mecca of co-sleeping. Japan also has horrifying rates of suicide in teenagers for example. Do we conclude one causes the other?

No she’s not right - clearly I (and others) disagree, hence the eye roll. This is nonsense:
“I also find the link between the huge rise in mental health issues in countries that favour sleep training over those that don’t very interesting.”
It’s a huge unsubstantiated leap that confuses correlation with causation. There is no evidence whatsoever that sleep training causes mental health issues. It’s just scaremongering by smug people who want to make sleep deprived parents feel guilty.

This is hilarious People who sleep train get so wound up when others come along who don’t agree with it. The Op asked for answers and we are giving different opinions, such is the case when it comes to sleep training.

Sleep 'training' is probably one of the best decisions I've ever made for my DS in his short life so far. We have a wonderful close relationship and he knows he can depend on DH and me whenever we are needed. He also understands and accepts what bedtime is and how to settle himself down to sleep. He has never been left to cry for hours, we went in every minute, then two mins, five mins, ten mins. It took one night and it was painful at the time but the rewards for all of us have been amazing. And he is absolutely happy and relaxed, one of the most joyful little creatures I've ever had the pleasure of meeting.

To suggest that he is somehow damaged or neglected because of it would be laughable if it wasn't so insulting and minimising to children who are actually damaged and neglected by the adults in their lives.

Actually @crazycatlady5, I think you'll find, I said there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with sleep training and choosing not to do it. There is nothing about that to wind anyone up - your family, your choice.

Many people (whether they sleep train or not) do however find your disgusting judgemental attitude towards other parents together with your completely unsubstantiated leap between mental health and sleep training something to get annoyed about. To be honest, the latter is a clear indication of your ignorance and lack of education more than anything else reminds me of another poster who seriously thought Gina Ford could be responsible for society's mental health problems.

We didn't do any controlled crying with DD, we (without really realising it) did gradual retreat, which in hindsight was a process that went on for probably a month or so, but I could leave her to cry and it felt natural to us.

Personally I much prefer this method. It let's the baby learn very slowly and most importantly calmly.

*couldn't

@NameChange30 I was the same which is part of the reason I chose PUPD - this way I was always there comforting her as I couldn't stand the idea of her crying for another reason and me not being there. To be honest, the cries of protest stopped very quickly, once she accepted sleep was not negotiable, she stopped protesting. If she cries now, I almost always comfort her unless it's clear she's screamed out in her sleep and still fast asleep.