5 year old, really need a new perspective on bedtime!

[whyismykid]

it’s long but i’m desperate - anyone cracked a bedtime nightmare and want to tell me how?

DS is 5.5, he has always been an awful awful sleeper - as a baby he took hours and hours to get to sleep - He would scream and scream and just wouldn't settle. Nothing worked consistently - for the first six months i spent most of each 24 hour period trying to get him to sleep - rocking, feeding to sleep, carrier, buggy, white noise, a gazillion 'magic' sleep aids bought from Amazon late at night (Ewan the sodding waste of space / glowing seahorse / bear with a recording of my own voice !?!?). It was desperate and I was falling apart.

It got a little easier once we started bringing him into our bed because at least there was some sleeping going on and i started to be able to think, but from 1 year old we have tried everything to help him to sleep independently and nothing has worked.

A year of the no cry sleep solution, no improvement. Six months of gradual retreat was pretty good but we couldn't get further away than the top of the stairs, we still had to be in sight. after three months (!) of putting him back to bed with no eye contact or speaking i was ready to kill the 3 day Nanny. We’ve tried relaxation CD’s, guided meditation, The Rabbit who wanted to Fall Asleep, massage, lavender baths, whale song. We have a consistent routine, bath, stories, kisses, bedtime. He gets lots of love during the day and he is able to play by himself to a degree but it all changes at night and he fights sleep so violently, screaming for us to sit with him, out of his room, and i’ve run out of ways to help him. We make sure he has time of physical activity each day. Starting school - which loads of people promised would sort him out has not, and he’s about to his second year. He’s not afraid of Monsters or Ghosts, he just doesn’t want to fall / can’t asleep by himself.

Whilst he now at 5.5 he generally sleeps through the night, bedtime is an awful screaming headache from start of bath 6:30pm to when he finally falls asleep, usually between 9;30pm and 10:30pm. He definitely needs less sleep than other children, but he quickly racks up a deficit and because he can’t nap, it just affects his behaviour - he is becoming increasingly aggressive and it’s really upsetting. For three months this year DH and I took it in turns to sit with him every night until he fell asleep and he was probably asleep an hour earlier on average - behaviour improved, smiles all round - but that’s still 1 - 2 hours each night after bedtime- and I find it hard to be affectionate to him at this time as i’m so frustrated that I can’t get on with what i need to do ( exciting stuff like cleaning / washing / occasionally having a conversation with DH etc). We are currently trying a star chart - he has got 2 stars in three weeks for falling asleep by himself by 9pm - the reward is something he really wants.

What else can I do to help him sleep? Should we just sit with him every night and hope that eventually he will be able to do it by himself? We need a new angle or perspective on this, I love him so much but it’s starting to wear down our relationship and our family.

(Probably not relevant but DD is very different, but calmer, happier to be alone, she just tells us when she has had enough stories and chats to her toys in her own room until she falls asleep)

Have you tried making his bedtime later? DD is 5 and we don't start bedtime routine until 7.45, as otherwise she will lie in bed awake until 10pm or later.

DS (6) is exactly the same and the only thing that helps is when he has LOADS of physical exercise during the day - I mean hours and hours. I think some kids ( lots of boys) really need to be moving and using their whole body for most of the day. Obviously that's not always possible and then we have the same problems you have.

Lots of sports, lots of movement that involves the whole body, etc etc . I feel for you!

I would definitely suggest a later bedtime too. About 7.30?

My DS (7) isn't a good sleeper, never has been, but bedtime, is bedtime. If he can't sleep I say to read a book until he's ready for bed. I'm firm but fair about it, bedtime varies between 7.30-8.30 depending on how tired he is etc. Once he's upstairs there is no coming back down and I don't sit with him.

What does your DS do when he can't sleep?

I'd agree with starting the routine later.

In addition, I'd introduce something fun that would generate a few good laughs, followed by quiet time to relax.
Laughing generates feel good chemicals in the body and releases built up tension.

It worked quite well with ds when he was struggling to fall asleep as a young child or older baby.

Goodness it really does sound like you've tried everything! It sounds so hard.
When DD went through a phase of not staying in bed we would put her back saying "time for bed, night night" and kiss goodnight on repeat until she gave in. I think it reaffirms that you meant it the first time whilst staying calm and reassuring whereas the saying nothing technique seems a bit cold and whilst it works for some maybe it would distress others?

I honestly don't know what else you can try other than asking your GP about whether a referral to a sleep clinic would be possible.

Have you looked at his diet? It transformed bedtime in this house when I started looking at food labels and changing what they ate.

Thank you so much for replying, I hope my desperation isn't too obvious but I really appreciate your time.

To those suggesting later bedtime - Currently bath at 6:30pm, stories from 7pm to 7:30 and then we say goodnight. So starting the bath at 7:30? then goodnight at 8:30pm? Worth a try, though late bedtime on holiday just lead to late sleeping - I was sitting with him until 10:30 or 11 most nights and then we ate dinner 😬
(we haven't always stuck to the clock, but we are trying to set clear expectations for him)

StubbornMare- when he can't sleep he shouts for us, constantly comes downstairs, throws things, creeps down and sits outside the room we are in - and when returned to bed he screams and sobs. the only way to stop him coming out would be to lock him in his room which I don't think I could do. I would love bedtime to mean bedtime - but how do you achieve that? We have tried punishments / incentives / shouting / bargaining but he doesn't care, being with us is more important.

Lweji - we definitely need to release the tension, (all of us!) it's just that relaxing / calming down afterwards is hard for him but I'll think this through (jokes in the bath maybe?), thanks!

it sounds so stressful for you all.

DS1 was a dreadful sleeper until he was 6. He would go off to bed and to sleep ok but would be up between 2 and 10 times every night. We used to let him get in with us as he would go back to sleep that way. Just after he turned 6, he was in hospital for a night as he was dehydrated due to a d&v bug. After he was allowed home, he slept 9 nights in a row, all night. We then had a couple of months of intermittent all night sleeps and now (5 months on) he sleeps through pretty reliably. I'm not sure what changed though!

I would agree with a later bedtime. DS2 goes between 7.30 and 8 in the week, around 8.30 at the weekend. School holidays it's nearer 9 some nights. He just wouldn't be tired enough for bed at 6.30 and he would have a tantrum if we tried to start his bedtime routine that early.

Once he's gone to bed, he doesn't come downstairs again at all. We go up to him if needs be but we've never brought him downstairs after lights out. Sometimes I'll send him up to get ready for bed and let him come downstairs once he's got pj's on and teeth brushed/face washed. We don't do a bath every night as he's got eczema and also a bath makes him over excited. Maybe try shortening the bedtime routine?

Reward charts don't work with DS1 really. He's not bothered by stickers. What we have found is working at the moment is a marble jar (thanks to a MNer for the idea!). He gets a marble for specific things eg. tidying up without a fuss, and loses a marble when he's been asked to do something more than twice, or if we get attitude or lashing out. When he gets a certain number of marbles he gets a treat.

Hopefully some of the suggestions you will get here will work as I know how desperate it can feel when they just will not sleep.

DismalDaphne - he generally eats well but that's definitely worth thinking about, thanks

Also my DS1 matured hugely between the end of reception and the end of year 1 - he's much easier to reason with now and the proper screaming tantrums have become much less frequent so possibly age/maturity may be on your side over the next few months too.

Thanks milliemoodle - we don't 'let' him come down stairs though and never have - not even as a baby, but he's a very strong boy and I can't physically restrain him, can't stop him getting out of his room without locking the door.

Very interesting point about shortening the bedtime routine - he has a long bath and 30 mins of stories as I felt they were helping him relax, I'd never considered they might be hindering him. What do you do as part of the bedtime routine? And what do your DCs do after dinner if they are going to bed later? Screen time exacerbates the problem so we avoid that, outside in summer in guess but winter?

Fingers crossed on the age thing!

It all sounds very difficult. I would also try a later bedtime. Possibly much later. What happens if you just let him stay up?

You say you think he needs less sleep. Yet you're getting him in bed at what, 7, 7.30? My 5 yr old needs-less-sleep DD is rarely in bed before 9 and reads a bit after that - but bedtime is calm and cooperative, and she will ask to go earlier if she's feeling tired.

We've tended to find that the time DC go to sleep is remarkably unrelated to the time they're put to bed. DS as a toddler used to go to sleep punctually around 9pm. It was the same if bedtime was 7pm or if bedtime was 8.45. But if the latter you had 2 hours less fight on your hands and everyone was happier.

It does get easier when they're older and you can reason with them more. Reading for pleasure also made a huge difference for us - even if they're not asleep you can park them happily in bed with a book and get on with your evening. And once they're snuggled in with a book they're much less inclined to move anywhere when you do turn the light out.

We saw a consultant on the NHS about sleep, the lady advised no screen time or TV time, no iPads, iPods etc 2 hours before bedtime as the light interferes with the body getting sleepy.

We had to keep a diary, and they can prescribe Melatonin to aid sleep. Melatonin is naturally in cherries so maybe have some to give a natural source.

Sorry, slow typing, I missed lots of updates.

I'm thinking you need to get out of the habit of bedtime being a battle whatever. Maybe as well as starting later you could strike some kind of bargain - you'll sit next to him on the condition he has his eyes closed and is really trying to sleep.

Talk him through how to do that too - is that something you've tried? I used to talk DD through relaxing every bit of her, then set her up with something nice to be thinking about as she drifted off. Might be counting in 2s, or thinking about what we're going to do on holiday next week, or thinking about all her favourite superheros, different every day. A quiet talk through their day to help them wind down their brains in bed can help too.

I get what you mean about not 'letting' him come downstairs (as opposed to him coming down by himself) and I hope my post didn't come across as suggesting you do, I didn't mean it to. I meant we never brought DS down ourselves; if he came down himself we'd take him straight back up, but I can see that's not as straightforward when dealing with a 5.5 yo as opposed to a 2/3 yo.

DS1's current bedtime routine is upstairs, pj's on, bathroom for toilet, brush teeth, wash face. Bedroom for reading and spellings, then he gets a chapter or so of his story, then a cuddle and the main light goes off. It takes 30-45 mins usually, if we do reading and spellings. 15-30 mins if we don't. If it's bath night then I wash his hair and him (although trying to encourage him to use the sponge himself now), then he's allowed to play with bath toys for 10 mins or so while I tidy up. Bath is around 15 mins, a bit longer if DS2 has gone in with him.

He used to mess about a lot at bedtime so we have a 'three chances' system. If he messes about too much he gets a warning, if he carries on, he loses a chance. If he loses all three chances, he doesn't get his story read to him. It works for us and he very rarely loses a chance now.

He's allowed his lamp on until he's asleep, I usually go up and turn it off once he's asleep. Sometimes he plays with a toy in bed for a bit (he thinks I don't know, but I do!). I don't mind that as long as he's not out of bed. Occasionally he gets out of bed and if he does we'll either call up or go up and see what's going on.

I find if he's not really that tired he'll sometimes protest a bit at bedtime but usually he's pretty good.

Same problem with5 year old DD. After trying everything, and after years of sitting with her to get her to sleep, we have now reluctantly accepted that she just falls asleep late.

What we focus on now is enabling DH and I to have some decent evening time to ourselves by following the usual 7.30 bath / bed schedule, but allowing her to keep her lamp on and look at books - we go to the library every weekend and borrow about 15 each time to make sure she has enough new books to hold her interest. 8 out of 10 nights this is effective and she "reads" to sleep without disrupting our evening. It's still usually about 9 /9.30 before she drops off though.

To be fair, she never seems tired during the day as a result so we don't have that element to deal with...

Sorry forgot to answer what DS1 does after dinner! We tend to eat quite late so usually it's up to bed pretty much straight after dinner. He's allowed to watch tv with us sometimes, but no computer games or other screens before bed. Usually it's max 15 mins of tv before bed.

Also, to be fair to the DreamSheep, she now switches this on independently when she recognises she is getting sleepy as it is often playing the lullaby when we go to switch off her light - so finally, after 5 years, it's doing the job!

Sounds like you have tried a lot! I just wanted to say that it's important to remember that as kids get older sometimes things work that didn't work before so don't be afraid to try things again as he gets older and has developmental changes. Also, if you are thinking of rewards perhaps try the 'grab box' idea where you wrap up lots of small but interesting toys and he gets to chose one. Have you tried rewarding for quiet play in his room rather than sleep (it's impossible to make yourself sleep...hence why I am
On mumsmet when I should be asleep but I don't feel tired...).

Reward chart!
My DS1 would scream blue murder because he always wanted to be in my bed. I spoke to his teacher about it one day and she made us up a reward chart which he would take back to school at the end of the week and she would let him pick a prize from the 'treasure chest'.

Also might be worth rewarding any improvement? So even if he doesn't go to sleep straight away, praise and reward firstly for staying in his room (even if he's calling you), then for staying in his room quietly, then for staying in bed quietly, then for going to sleep without fuss, then for sleeping all night, etc? It might take weeks but any improvement would help?

Have you any other people who could encourage him to stay in bed? Thinking about it, DS1 has a schoolfriend who also didn't sleep through the night. His Nan promised him a Lego figure once he'd slept through 7 nights in a row. I was chatting to her in the playground one morning about sleep, and she also promised DS1 a figure if he slept 7 nights in a row. He was so desperate to get the Lego figure first that I think it helped! Is there someone else (besides family) who could promise a reward for eg 7 nights in a row of no fuss at bedtime?

Personally I would do a quick bath and story at 8.30 and have him ready for "lights out" (settling to sleep) at 9 but with you and DH taking turns to lie with him. I reckon if he realises that you/DH will be consistently with him until he falls asleep then he will relax more as the time goes on and start falling asleep sooner and sooner. If he is sure someone will be with him he will stop being stressed at bedtime and will just get on with the sleeping. Yes it takes a chunk of your evening but you're already losing massive chunks of it and everyone being stressed at the same time.

Thank you everyone for your comprehensive responses- this is all really helpful Lots for us to think about.

The external Person might be worth trying - I might try talking to his new teacher.

Pugwalls - I love that the dream sheep is working now, I gave all of the 'sleep aids' away to a friend in a fit of peak, maybe I should have held on to them!

And MeanAger - taking the panic out of the situation is exactly what we need to do - it might help us all back down from our current position.

So here is our new plan:

We are going to try having him play by himself downstairs (we have just agreed on Lego and Drawing) whilst I do the bedtime routine for DD (who just tells us when she is sleepy and then chats to her toys in her room until She falls asleep).

Then he can come up for a shower at 7:45 ish depending on tiredness. Then a quick story and one of us will stay with him until he falls asleep for a few months or until he has caught up.

I'm also going to pay more attention to his diet, and physical activity.

Thank you all, I'll update x

Good luck why. I really hope it works and that bedtimes aren't a battle any more. Please do update us!