Removing sleep associations

[boodles101]

My DS needs to learn to self soothe and I'm unsure how to go about it. He is almost 6 months and for the last month wakes every 1-2 hours. Sometimes he will go back to sleep if I just reinsert his dummy, the majority of the night I have to feed him back to sleep. I have had conflicting advice about removing/keeping the dummy but I understand every baby is different. Ultimately my goal is getting him to sleep by himself for longer periods of time both day and night.
I have been trying to put him down in his cot, drowsy first but he just screams everytime I put him down. I have tried this today without his dummy but I feel like I have taken all his comforts away (including breast) and expecting him to just settle. Should I be removing 1 association at a time? Ie get him to sleep without me first? I'm at a complete loss and have no confidence in what I'm doing.

If he's waking frequently in the night it is due to light sleeping and it is likely to be to do with

• not going from awake to asleep in the cot
• insufficient daytime sleep causing over tiredness
• low level hunger - calorie intake over 24h on the low side compare to their needs

If you take the dummy away you'll end up shushing and patting back to sleep. Or feeding to sleep or rocking. All more parent-dependant than the dummy - which in time baby can learn to do himself. Likewise comforter of some kind. Great for independant sleep when older, useful to get used to early but probably can't be relied upon this young.

Self comforting does not mean no comfort.

Self comforting needs some degree of fine motor skills that come with age.

Entirely reasonable that many babies will be sleeping through by 6 months old. Such children will have comfort in going to sleep. Maybe dummy for in-cot independence. Maybe fed to drowsy and shush patted, or many other options. It's just they then don't wake up because they sleep deeply.

It is also entirely reasonable and within normal that baby will wake in the night at 6 months.

Waking 1-2 hourly all night, every night, always - that indicates a very significant lack of restorative deep sleep and is something to be concerned about. It is not normal.

If this is happening baby must be dealing with some very unhealthy sleep habits. The answer is not to make things hard for baby. The answer is making sleep as easy as possible. You often find parents getting to this point when they are so scared of The Rod For Your Back that they make sleep so hard for baby that baby gets more and more exhausted and sleep deprived - a cycle difficult to get out of.

What is baby's daytime routine like?

Yes I feel like he is in a cycle where he is just so overtired. I get him up at 7am and I then do first nap at 9.30. He will tend to only nap for 30 mins if I put him down but will sleep for over an hour if I let him sleep on me. If only 30min naps then I try to give him 4-5 during the day with approx 90min waking, earlier if he shows signs of tiredness. We have a good bedtime routine of bath, milk, book, bed. He will sometimes go to sleep by himself but usually wakes up with 30-60mins.
When you say make it as easy as possible, do you mean I should just do whatever I can to help him sleep? So give the dummy and/Or feed? Let him nap on me?

fate

Waking 1-2 hourly all night, every night, always - that indicates a very significant lack of restorative deep sleep and is something to be concerned about. It is not normal.

My son has a similar sleep pattern and I'm interested to know more about this. Can you please point me towards the research/evidence behind this?

It depends on your parenting style. Your opening posts suggests you want baby sleeping independantly, on own? Is that right?

In which case the tools of independant sleep involve things to make going to sleep in the cot easier - dummy, comforter. You also need various 'extra' tricks up your sleep for when getting to sleep is more difficult. Ones I would use are:

• going to sleep (in the daytime) in something that moves - bouncer / pushchair / car
• lying on my bed next to the cot and snuggling up to baby in the cot (with side removed from the cot)
• feeding until nearly asleep, into cot with dummy and then firm hand on chest. Some patting and shushing as needed
• if all else fails, feeding to sleep lying down and leaving baby there.

These, of course, are all assuming you are willing to help your baby get to sleep and want to avoid baby crying. The idea would be that the less over tired baby is, the quicker going to sleep is and the less involvement it takes (caveat: until fine motor skills develop around 7-10 months, there will always be some level of parental involvement. Maybe dummy reinsert, comforter snuggle, shush, pat). Then past the 7-10m mark when baby can coordinate movements to self-comfort, less and less involvement is needed until none is needed, just access to own dummy/comforter.

There are other ways to force the issue, they involve leaving your baby to cry though. If your baby is already going to sleep in the cot, largely unnecessary anyway. Quiet, still, calm bedtimes are my way forward - not scream fests.

At this moment in time I just want him sleeping longer intervals. I will do all I can if it just helps him to sleep longer but what I'm currently doing doesn't seem to be getting any better. How do I get him into a deeper sleep?

Sardines18 - You have the same access to Google I do. You can look into it more yourself, if interested

It's common sense and very basic biology that deep sleep phases are necessary for healthy development - in adults and children alike. I bet theres tons of research out there for you to read on the effects of poor sleep, if so inclined to learn more.

I recall reading something on the NHS site about how healthy sleep habits in children are believed to be as important to overall health as healthy eating habits and exhaustion has similar health outcomes to obscity. You can look into this yourself, if interested.

Happy to help with your sons sleep, if I can.

Longer intervals at night boodles101?

The key to that will be night weaning. So using alternate methods to get baby to sleep that is not feeding.

Before you start though - is baby a healthy weight and gaining weight well?

If baby's weight is low or has a habit of dropping centiles, it is not a simple matter of stopping night feeds 'just like that', because the calories may be vitalluly needed.

Are these night feeds breastfeeds?
Are you willing to consider swapping to bottle feeds in the night (expressed or formula)?

fate

I have been researching this constantly and have not found anything that says waking 1-2 hours is not normal and indicative of a very significant lack of restorative sleep. Everything I have read suggests that infants have shorter sleep cycles (typically 60 minutes). That''s why I was hoping you could point me to the source you were referring to.

He is ebf. Was born a decent 8lbs 2 but then took a while to gain weight. He has tracked the 9% since then and gains at a steady pace. Last visit to the HV they were happy with his gain. I have wondered whether I need to try some formula for evening feed. He is also very easily distracted so while i try to feed as much as I can through the day, I wonder how much he actually gets and is he just waking up hungry to make up for it at night. I started on some porridge last week and he ate it all no problems, I think he was definitely ready for it, but I also continued to offer breast too.

At six months I sleep trained all of mine for settling to sleep (not for waking in night) . This did involve some crying (from both of us). It's a bit frowned upon these days but I really believe some babies need to learn how to self settle and a couple of hard evenings are worth it. I know so many school age kids that still take hours to settle for bed.
Start by getting a good evening routine that you stick with in terms of winding down and getting to bed at a similar time. Then put into the cot drowsy but awake.
Different approaches you can use after this point. I used controlled crying but there are other ways that will take longer but shd work such as withdrawing gradually etc etc
Good luck it's hard but so worth tackling

Just to add id still feed in the night at this age esp if on the 9th centile but self soothing shd help if baby is waking up and unable to get back to sleep without you

Don't feel you need to try formula, that's not what I meant. It's just that overnight breastfeeds are more about comfort and mummy-time and less about calories. Whereas bottle feeds are less 'comforting' and more just about calories, so much more straight forward to stop.

In terms of your baby's sleep - I would start in-cot settling in whatever way you see fit. Mine would be dummy in, lie next to cot (on my bed), eye contact, firm hand on chest, dummy reinserts as needed. Calm, still, quiet. If you prefer not using dummy and settling a different way that's fine. But it needs to be done with baby going to sleep in the cot, without being fed.

So when baby wakes, set a time limit on how long you will try to settle. I'd say 20-30 mins. But always try to settle first - every time. If baby isnt settling within that 30 mins, I would lift and feed, put back in cot before fully asleep and settle as above. The idea being that baby gets more used to being settled independantly as the 'go to' option, rather than feeding.

This isn't the quick-fix answer. It won't stop night wakes any time soon. It should help, but is not a magic wand. Just that stopping the dependancy on feeding to sleep is the very first step towards stopping night wakes.

Sardines18 - shorter sleep cycles of 30-45 minutes completely normal in the daytime. The push to sleep at night is greater. I'm not here to argue with you. I am right.

Sardines18 you are correct. Babies do have much shorter sleep cycles and often need help linking sleep cycles back together. Some babies wake every 1-2 hours, some every 4-5, they're all different and nothing lasts forever - unless there is a big reason so frequent wakings such as allergies, illness etc x

Sardines18 this is my absolute favourite infograhic.

I can't zoom that very well to read, but seems fairly readonable from what my eyesight can make out. 4-5h chunvks I think?

I find these sleep charts quite accurate:

www.mybabysleepguide.com/2013/02/average-sleep-charts-by-age.html?m=1

It's not within the spectrum of normal or ok to be waking hourly, all night, every night, for a prolonged period with a 6mobth old. In fact with any age. I'm sorry. I know how hard this kind of thing is to accept when you are going through it.

But it is not something you should endure because someone told you their baby did it too.

Nights of hourly wake ups happen, oh yes. For many months to come. Illness, pain, all manner of different things might give you a run of bad nights. Or periods in the night of hourly wakes - say 7pm to midnight - not great sleep habits but happens.

But NOT all night, every night, always. If that is happening, something needs change. It will indeed probably be due to waking fully in the 'environment check' between sleep cycles - a sign baby needs to go to sleep where they stay asleep. Not uncommon, still an unhealthy sleep habit and not 'to be expected' - it's as a result of poor slerp hygiene.

Imagine falling to sleep in your bed and rolling over an hour later and finding yourself in the back seat of a car. You'd wake up properly pretty darn quick, rather than rolling over and going straight back to sleep. That's the point of the environment check. It's why going to sleep in the cot is important.

FTM85

Thank you for that info graphic. The short sleep cycles in babies were what I was trying to clarify as this suggests even if babies wake every 1 to 2 hours they are still getting sufficient deep restorative sleep in that time.

fate

I do realise that waking between sleep cycles is not a good sleep habit. What is not apparent to me is that this indicates a very significant lack of restorative deep sleep as you claimed. I feel that this claim risks creating even greater anxiety amongst mothers who are already very anxious about their babies.

I wouldn't night wean personally, DD is nearly one and still has a night feed most nights, especially if your little one is only on the 9th centile I wouldn't think its advisable to suddenly drop a lot of his nutrician. He may start sleeping a lot better once he is on solids? Or once he is fully having solid meals alongside milk it may be a better time to drop a night feed.

Have you tried rocking him to sleep/usint the dummy first to see if hes hungry or not?

I would expect the parents of a child waking up and feeding resettling every 1-2 hourly all night, every night, for prolonged periods to be very anxious about that.

Very, very anxious indeed. They should be, their baby is not getting the amount of restorative deep sleep as they should be Sardines18. So something need to change. The uneasy, anxious feeling is likely to be the precurser to that change.

I won't be sure coating anything because it hurts anyone's feelings Getting enough sleep, including deep, restorative sleep, is very important to a baby's health. Anybody's health. Waking very frequently is detrimental to that and means baby is not getting the amount of deep sleep they should be.

fate

You stated earlier:
Waking 1-2 hourly all night, every night, always - that indicates a very significant lack of restorative deep sleep and is something to be concerned about. It is not normal.

Again you have stated:
Getting enough sleep, including deep, restorative sleep, is very important to a baby's health. Anybody's health. Waking very frequently is detrimental to that and means baby is not getting the amount of deep sleep they should be.

Nobody is suggesting that you should sugar coat anything. But I think it is important to differenciate between opinion and fact - the latter of which should always be supported by evidence.

I am not questioning that this is an unhealthy sleep habit that should not be worked on. It is problematic for the parent but I still have not found anything to back up your claim that your child will not get enough restorative sleep in the mean time.
I find this a slightly inappropriate statement to keep making when somebody is already worried about their babies sleep patterns. I do not think it is helpful and again you have provided no medical evidence to support it.

It's factual. You disagree. We could keep going around in circles....

Labouring the point as you are is not helpful to somebody is already worried about their babies sleep pattern. It will not change my mind or that I know I'm right. It won't change what I post.

I gave you one brief answer when you first asked. We are no further forward but you have probably made the op (and anyone reading this) feel far worse than they already do.

So rather than keep repeating the same things, we could just accept I think I'm right and you think you're right... Then we could go ahead and try to help these mums who have babies not getting enough sleep.

FATE just wondering if you can point us in the direction of fact regarding the 1-2 hours night wakings? Because according to many child sleep experts, although exhausting, it is actually normal for short periods (one month is a short period) and as babies grow older they naturally sleep longer.

Genuinely interested to see something fact based I am not probing..

I feel no need to prove myself. None at all. If you feel the need to prove me wrong, feel free to find some evidence that waking 1-2 hourly provides enough restorative deep sleep for a baby.

With all due respect FTM85, you are a (first time?) mum to a 5 month old getting 10-12 hours sleep in 24 hours. You will be fantastic as support and solidarity for babies sleeping very little, but your authority in what constitutes healthy sleep is somewhat limited.

I can understand you feeling defensive on the issue. I have many a "discussion" (argument) with similar defensive mums on this kind of subject. This isn't the first time, it wont be the last.

fate

The reason that I am labouring the point, repeating the same things, is that you have yet to provide me with any facts. You merely just state that it is factual. So far all I have seen is that it is your opinion.

I fail to see how my asking you to point me towards actual research that supports your facts would make others feel far worse than they do. I don't see the connection.

However you are correct in saying we are no further forward. I was genuinely looking for some evidence as I am clearly interested in this having a baby myself who wakes up frequently through the night.

Haha oh dear.

FATE you are a very strange person who seems to spend every breathing moment on mumsnet by the looks of things.

I'm off to enjoy my child who shock sleeps like a normal baby, please carry on scrolling through every post on here. Sorry you don't have anything else to do.

I'm going to keep repeating the same things Sardines18

Im going to continue to say the same thing on any other thread where it's relevant

I'm not going to stop saying it

I'm not going to change what I say.
Because it's right

I'm really not sure if I can be any clearer than that?

Feel free to find some evidence that waking 1-2 hourly provides enough restorative deep sleep for a baby

If you can't be bothered, that's fine. I can continue saying it. You can continue disagreeing. The Mumsnet readers can make up their own minds or do their own research, if they wish to.

This little disagreement could go on forever. We will get no further forward. It's just point scoring and childish.