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Sleep

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Original poster

Removing sleep associations

50 replies

boodles101 · 08/07/2017 16:28

My DS needs to learn to self soothe and I'm unsure how to go about it. He is almost 6 months and for the last month wakes every 1-2 hours. Sometimes he will go back to sleep if I just reinsert his dummy, the majority of the night I have to feed him back to sleep. I have had conflicting advice about removing/keeping the dummy but I understand every baby is different. Ultimately my goal is getting him to sleep by himself for longer periods of time both day and night.
I have been trying to put him down in his cot, drowsy first but he just screams everytime I put him down. I have tried this today without his dummy but I feel like I have taken all his comforts away (including breast) and expecting him to just settle. Should I be removing 1 association at a time? Ie get him to sleep without me first? I'm at a complete loss and have no confidence in what I'm doing.

OP posts:

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 10:56

seems to spend every breathing moment on mumsnet

You'll get some breathing space in about 15 mins FTM. I'm about to go on a first time contact lenses fitting with my 12 year old. Allow for a 2 hour appointment they said so won't me around much over lunchtime.

This afternoon toddler will be napping, eldest out with mates (in her contacts...possibly), 11 year old on the scooter park and the 7 year old playing footy with the neighbour on the garden.... I may be mumsnetting then

Next best time to pop along when I'm not here will be Monday morning - I'm strawberry picking with my mum

There's lots of times in not on mumsnet. But i do spend a lot (most) of my down-time here. Toddler sleeps 3h every afternoon, others at school, I'm a SAHM - I have lots of downtime

EdwardGorey · 09/07/2017 11:09

Because according to many child sleep experts, although exhausting, it is actually normal for short periods
Um...aren't you guys in agreement on this being okay in short bouts?

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 13:06

I think there would be some debate as to what constitutes a "short period of time". It is indeed open to interpretation.

I was considering a short period of time as cutting teeth, being ill - may be 3 or 4 nights. These happen regularly with pretty much every child and are completely normal. I'd start worrying after 4 nights with very disturbed sleep if it wasn't improving, and would know its time to try something different. If it got to more than a week, I'd be concerned. I think the PP mentioned a month. Herein is the debate.

(DD12 has her contact lenses, she is over the moon with them. Putting in and removing like a pro! If anyone cares....)

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 13:20

www.parentingscience.com/baby-sleep-patterns.html

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 13:21

The minute you start comparing baby sleep to adult sleep you're on a slippery slope no matter how many children you've had.

FTM85 · 09/07/2017 13:33

Tilly claps

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 13:38

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 13:41

I'm not. And I don't (although I do often talk of developing adult-like cycles rather than the passive sleep of newborn).

Anyway, interesting blog post. It's not research, just an article, but interesting none the less and I agree with most. No mention on the normality or not of prolonged hourly wakes ups, if this is unhealthy or not, but I enjoyed reading it anyway. Thanks TittyGolightly

(I do keep wondering if I should write a sleep website, just to allow folks to link to it like: "It must be true, heres the proof. It's on t'internet, on a website with a sciencey name no less. Of course it won't be biased and secondary interpretations")

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 13:42

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 13:43

Anyway, interesting blog post. It's not research, just an article,

It references several pieces of research though, which is rather more scientific than saying "it's true because I say it is".

Timetogrowup2016 · 09/07/2017 13:44

Oh fate.
Let it go.
You don't always have to have the last word you know ;)

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 13:50

It does TittyGolightly. None of the secondary references say prolonged hourly wake ups in a 5 month old are normal.

Do I get a clap FTM85?!?

Anyone would think I'm used to dealing with these kinds of debates from defensive Mums Timetogrowup2016. I recall a few with you... ;)

Timetogrowup2016 · 09/07/2017 13:53

I guess really it's just a matter of opinion.
It's really not worth arguing over .
It won't achieve anything at all

HSMMaCM · 09/07/2017 14:01

If you're too tired to resettle between sleep cycles at night, you could try a shush pat after a daytime sleep waking and see if you can stretch that nap to an hour and a half. Once learned during the day, it might be easier at night.

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 14:02

You are the wise voice size of reason time.

This is most certainly not helping the op. It's probably making her feel worse, so not in the spirit of a help and advice board.

I think it's been well established now that there is a difference of opinion. Im ok with that, it's no problem to me that people don't agree with me.

This is achieving nothing, will change nothing and is not helping anyone.

Timetogrowup2016 · 09/07/2017 14:07

lets just say if their is a way of stopping 1-2 hourly wake ups whether it's bad for baby or not surely people would want to try and stop them . No one wants to be woken that much for weeks or months on end . So maybe we should focus on advice for that

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 14:16

It does TittyGolightly. None of the secondary references say prolonged hourly wake ups in a 5 month old are normal.

It says:

Babies may experience arousals every 50 minutes or so. If you’re lucky, these arousals are only partial and your baby goes back to sleep without a fuss. If you’re unlucky, your baby becomes fully aroused—and let’s you know about it.

The OP doesn't say the baby is waking hourly and having prolonged wake ups, either.

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 14:27

Oh good Lord!

Arousals is different to waking (as the unreferenced piece you have copied says).

What an utterly pointless discussion this is

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 14:34

And if you wish to reference Siegel 2005,
who I think will be your best bet please provide a relevant quote from his papers directly along with the link. Because I have no inclination to read the hundreds that there are.

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 14:34

What's the difference between "fully aroused" (in this context) and "waking", Dr Fate?

FATEdestiny · 09/07/2017 14:50

Honestly Tilly, I could go to great lengths to explain about arousal, the purpose, how and why it exists. And how waking properly at the arousal is very different to the arousal (not waking) between sleep cycles. I'm In fact I know I've done this explanation several times on the mumsnet forum boards before, if you want to search my posts.

Do i want to give the time and effort that takes here? To people who are not interested in my knowledge, are being at best unhelpful and at worst obnoxious?

No. No I don't.

In answer to your post I got 3 paragraphs into explaining. Not copy and pasting, but explaining in the wider context and taking in several sources. But deleted because honestly, the point-scoring mentality here is awful.

I get that you do not agree with me
I get that you think you are right
I have no problem with that

And yes, I have a PhD (and a PGCE) in a science subject. Its not relevant here. But no need to be rude

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 15:11

You could have avoided all that waffle with one sentence! What is the difference between fully aroused and awake? Quite a simple question. Fully aroused, to my mind, means there is no further arousal available to be had. So it's not possible to be fully aroused and partly asleep, is it?

TittyGolightly · 09/07/2017 15:14

I'm not having a go, by the way. Not sure how we're supposed to know you have a doctorate (presumably not in the child sleep arena) when every request for evidence for your copious advice is met with "google it".

I agree with you about some things. Not all, but some.

TheWeeWitch · 09/07/2017 15:26

I'm grateful to you, Fate, for the time and effort you put in to helping people on MN. I've never had a bad sleep issue with either of my babies (because I happily feed to sleep and co-sleep at night and for daytime naps until they are toddlers) but nearly always read your posts and think that you give so much so freely. I've learned a lot.

Igottastartthinkingbee · 09/07/2017 15:29

All babies are different OP and they all go through phases at different times. Mine both took until they were two years old before they really settled into full uninterrupted night time sleep. Please speak to your health visitor or gp (some doctors surgeries have paediatric specialists) if things don't settle down. Personally I wouldn't night wean yet, but obviously that's your decision. Actually one thing I found was that once I started to wean onto solid food they actually needed more milk at night for a while. Because they'd be filling up on puréed carrot or apple during the day and not getting enough calories in. That came as a shock as loads of people said that sleep improved when weaning started! Not so in my case! It does improve once they've having proper calorie high meals until teething puts it all to shit again

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