8 month terrible sleeper & sleep training not working... help!

[Schwanengesang]

DS (8 months) is a big wee laddie, 99th centile height, 75th weight & into 18 month old clothes. He has always been a pretty bad sleeper, waking every hour or so (can't link sleep cycles), but it seems to be getting worse recently so he will often be awake for 3+ hours in the middle of the night and cluster feed for hours too.

I don't feed to sleep unless it happens by accident (then I just let him sleep). I usually gently disengage when he's sleepy and put him on my shoulder and pat his bottom. Obviously this doesn't help (bad habit) but I just cannot get him to sleep any other way.

We have been trying having DH resettle him at night other than a dream feed and another feed at about 3am, then DH going t bed & I take over. After 2 weeks, DS still wakes up all the time - it seems to have made no difference. DH is now just knackered and grumpy and refusing to do more nights after this week (he works, I don't, so it seems reasonable that he needs to get enough sleep to be able to work long hours).

The cot mattress is raised at the head end, and we are trying omeprazole for 2 weeks (again, seems to have made no difference). Heating is on 19 deg but room usually is colder, DS sleeps in about 3 layers on top/ just nappy & socks, under a sleeping bag (arms out), with a cellular blanket over the top. He seems neither too hot nor too cold.

Daytime naps are usually something like 9-9.30, 12.30-3, 4-4.45.

Dinner is 5.30 (usually grumpy by the end), then bath, then a feed, then I hand him to DH and he is asleep by 7. Then he wakes up screaming about 8.30-9, is resettled, wakes 9.30, 10, 11ish and stays awake grizzling, I go in for a feed at 11.30, DH then spends til 2am resettling him, he wakes at 3 screaming, I feed him, DH then goes to bed, and I spend the rest of the night trying to get DS to stop feeding and go to sleep but he shrieks if I stop the cluster feeding. It stops about 7am when he decides to get up for the day.

He eats something like the following:

Breakfast: 2 ice cubes (melted, obviously!) of stewed apple, 2 tablespoons of rice cereal, tablespoon of yoghurt. Breastfeed both sides about 9am, Lunch 11.30, 1 piece toast, egg, cucumber sticks, 1 ice cube eachof stewed pumpkin & apple to hide omeprazole. Breastfeed both sides before nap. Afternoon tea 1 pouch of rice pudding. Breastfeed before nap. Dinner is often 1 tablespoon wholegrain cereal, half a weetabix, 2 teaspoons nut paste; or chunkily-pureed peas, spinach, yoghurt, mint, cucumber. Then breastfeed before bed, feeds 11.30, 3, & cluster feed 3-7ish. I offer water at meals but he usually doesnt want any (sometimes does, so knows how o drink from sippy cup).

What are we doing wrong? How much should he be sleeping?
What about food?

Arrggggh...

Mine are older now but that doesn't seem like a lot of food. I'm sure mine just had a bowl of puréed/mashed whatever we were having rather than calculating spoonfuls and ice cubes so specifically. Where's the protein/meat??
Mine never fed at night from four and five months (but ff by this time). I also gave them a Weetabix at supper time to fill them up!

Dream feeds don't keep them asleep. I've seen it suggested that it encourages them to wake.

Keep the bedroom dark when you resettle him.
Why are you feeding from both sides during the day? The cluster feeding would make me think he isn't getting enough milk, which is the most calorific thing in his diet. Food is fun at his age let him empty one side and if he asks for more then swap.

my wee boy is 8 months... he can eat a whole bowl of porridge at breakfast etc. I have never done ice cube portions... maybe he's hungry? mine's is breastfed

That's quite small amounts of solids. By that age mine (who isn't a great eater) as bf and eating whole bowls of stuff. Hes at the opposite end of the weight curves despite a predilection for butter and has always been a terrible sleeper. Only started getting it at 18m.
Increase protein and fat - try a homemade mince/grated veggies/tomatoes sauce with macaroni pasta, porridge with butter in, rice pudding etc. Avocados? Fat basically - proteins and good fats.
Feed them what you eat chopped up small - it's sounds like he's hungry and the ice cube sized portions of stuff don't have many calories in.
More food in the day and less at night. Agree that dream feeds at this age can be counterproductive- the change in mine when we stopped feeding at night was dramatic.

I'd also stop counting stuff out in tablespoons - give him a whacking great bowl of spag Bol or porridge with cream in and let him munch it. Keep bf in the day and try to dial it back at night (which I know is easier said than done!)

I wouldn't say that you are not giving him enough food at all, that sounds like loads more than my bf dd who is almost 10 months eats in a day, milk should still be the main part of a baby's diet before they are a year old. I wouldn't worry about that too much, but maybe try to give more fruit and veg rather than rice and cereal which are pretty poor nutritionally in comparison.

It is probably the 8 month sleep regression, we are still suffering through it as dd has also finally started getting some teeth at almost 10 months and is on the verge of walking so won't just stay still at bedtime and feed to sleep anymore. It's hard going but it is a phase and it will pass (or so I am told!) DD has dropped to two naps of about three hours in total by that age, the third nap in the afternoon was leaving her with too much energy at bedtime.

Ok, that sounds fairly simple to fix.

Next question, how do you keep a baby amused while cooking? He doesn't mind the high chair but won't happily sit long enough for me to actually cook anything... all tupperware/ whisk/ wooden spoon / toys get chucked on the floor and he howls to get down. But down he's under my feet/ not safe/ out of sight. I am clearly not good at this!

Ok, that sounds fairly simple to fix.

Next question, how do you keep a baby amused while cooking? He doesn't mind the high chair but won't happily sit long enough for me to actually cook anything... all tupperware/ whisk/ wooden spoon / toys get chucked on the floor and he howls to get down. But down he's under my feet/ not safe/ out of sight. I am clearly not good at this!

Yesterday I made a thread about my 8 month old DS sleep, it had turned to shit lately. I've just updated after a horrendous night with him. You're not alone!

I did also attempted not feeding him last night and it wasn't the battle I thought it was going to be. Although I see that you BF which I know is different to night weaning from formula.

During the day my DS will eat:
B - one weetabix with cow's milk, greek yoghurt and fruit.
L - sandwiches (one piece of bread) with cream cheese/peanut butter. Pieces of cheese. Strips of chicken. More yoghurt and fruit.
D - either something I've frozen, like stew/chicken and veg, an Ella's kitch pouch or some of what we're eating depending on time etc. A banana. A jar of rice pudding/some custard etc.

This is on top of around 35oz of milk.

cross posted silkpyjamas.

If i give him more of what we eat that will be more veg. He doesn't seem too keen on fruit but will keep trying...

owlsanctuary good to know! Will try way more food as per what you are giving.

Next question, how do you keep a baby amused while cooking?

Do the cooking while baby is happy, awake and playing on the floor in the living room.

Imagine you had multiple other children and a family meal to cook every day.

The assumption that you must watch baby literally every single minute is the only issue here. It's a viewpoint only the first time mum can have, it's pretty impossible once you have more children.

Baby proof all rooms that baby will be in. Then crack on and get stuff done at the times baby is happy and playing.

I am a bit PFB, clearly...

FATE any advice on the sleep? You seem to be the oracle round here...

We had a jumperoo (aka the chair of neglect) which served us well for a few months. He loved that and would happily bounce away in the kitchen chatting to me. Then a playpen. Now he's a bit more distracted with play doh or a book or (so shoot me) TV for a bit.
You just have to manage as best you can - I'm sure there are wonderful moppets who play quietly on the floor with toys while mummy cooks organic quinoa but mine sure as hell isn't one of them.
Despite what the mummy mafia will insist on, TV for fifteen mins while you're cooking is fine, and sometimes you just have to cook with a screaming toddler climbing your leg/raiding the cupboards/individually throwing potatoes at the wall.

The first few years appear to be survival based, you have to embrace the chaos and try doggedly to civilise the little buggers. It'll be ok, be kind to yourself, don't expect perfection or a clean house or gourmet meals.
I'm a member of a mum Facebook group and a significant proportion of them seem to be well groomed glamourpusses who feed little Olivia only organic sugar free blah blah blah and never let them watch TV. And that's fine. But we are in a state of perpetual mild dishevellment, we do occasionally have fish fingers for dinner and I do occasionally shove him in front of the gruffalo with a cookie for fifteen minutes while I cook. And that's fine too. He's loved, clean, warm, fed and cared for by parents who love him to bits. Really that's all that matters.

I'd forgotten how good the Gruffalo is. Good idea. I am not an organic quinoa chef by any means, more a crap disorganised muddler in a permanent state of depression at how bloody awful my cooking is. I think our door frames are too delicate for the jumperoo, must have a look at the specs...

Do you have a play pen? I find Ds will play in the play pen happily for 15 mins or so which just about gives enough time to prepare something. I also batch cook at the weekends and freeze. If you try and do one thing a weekend you build up a stash quite quickly.

I got a few recipie books/apps which helped me know what to do (it is hard to know!)

My Ds is just turned 1 so is now having toast and fruit with Greek yogurt for breakfast, a 'picky' lunch, sandwich, cucumber sticks, pepper, sweet corn, cheese, pieces of ham/chicken, grapes, yogurt and then a cooked tea (pasta bolognaise etc) with more yogurt/fruit/custard. I also offer snacks after morning and afternoon naps.

He does throw a lot of food on the floor! If I feel he hasn't eaten much in a day I usually offer purée after tea to top him up. I used to offer purée after lunch too but I'm trying to wean him off purée altogether!

I really sympathise with the waking, Ds is also a poor sleeper and it's tough!

Never mind extra fruit and veg, add in more carbs and protein! Jumperoo are stand alone and great at this age. Try your local Facebook market place.

P.s jumparoo is free standing so no need to worry about door frames!

Also, I use quite a few Ella pouches alongside home made stuff so if you need to I'd buy stuff in. Don't kill yourself preparing everything from scratch if it's not possible.

Jumperoo isn't a doorframe one - it's a fisher price Freestanding one - well worth it!

I have spent many a teatime in tears as a clingy screaming toddler climbs my legs and Smug Quinoa Mums advise 'just use. Sling' or other useless crap (I can't use a sling, my back and hips are totally fucked)

I sometimes have a small success with letting him empty out a specific drawer. But TV for a bit with a Few thing to sing along to together is fine, it's not like you're Parking them in front of it for hours.

Letting them be bored and amuse themselves is a vital skill. They can't do it for long at that age. It it's good to practice.

More fat and protein anyway. See how that goes.

Baby prison (play pen) or circle of neglect (Jumperoo). Plus you might need to master one handed cooking for super-clingy days

Heating is on 19 deg but room usually is colder, DS sleeps in about 3 layers on top/ just nappy & socks, under a sleeping bag (arms out), with a cellular blanket over the top.

Are you in the UK? That's far, far, FAR too many clothes at night. Massively so.

www.gro-store.com/grobag-guide

For a 2.5 tog sleeping bag:

• 16-18 deg room = long leg, long arm sleepsuit (only - nothing else)
• 20 deg room = long sleeved, no leg vest (only - nothing else)

FATE any advice on the sleep?

As has been mentioned by the posters above me, I don't think your baby is eating enough. So you cannot reasonably expect him not to clusterfeed at night if he needs the calories.

Would you consider daytime formula? I had a similar chunk of a baby - 91st centile until walking. She was eating/drinking close to treble what you describe at this age. You can't really do much about your nights until you've found a way to get a lot more calories into baby.

Remember fruit and veg are low calorie foods. You want protein and carbs. And milk - high calories per oz. Don't replace high calorie milk with low calorie fruit and veg - this will give you a hungry baby. More food groups, bigger portions. Here's what I was doing at 8 months:

• 7.30 am breakfast

Porridge made with formula milk Then a slice of toast with something spread on it Then what's left of the 8oz formula bottle.

• 9am full milk feed
• 11am full milk feed
• 12pm dinner

6 months jar of bought, savoury baby food Followed by an assortment if lunch items: ie a slice of bread, cheese chunks, cucumber, slices of chicken, scrambled egg etc Followed by a yoghurt If still eating, followed by sliced fruit

• 1pm full milk feed
• 3pm full milk feed
• 5pm full milk feed
• 6pm Dinner

6 month jar of bought, savoury baby food Followed by a plate full of our family meal Followed by a yoghurt Followed by fruit slices

• 7.30/8pm full milk feed and bed

Then no night feeds and nothing more until morning.

Gradually more proper food was eaten so that the puree wasn't needed. Then as portion sizes continued to increase the milk feeds were replaced by non-milk drinks instead.

I had to sleep train my DS at 8/9 months because he was exactly the same as yours! He couldn't self settle, would only sleep if breast fed to sleep and would wake up constantly through the night and sometimes be awake for HOURS! It was absolutely soul destroying.

Me and DH paid £90 for the advice of a Sleep Consultant and due to complete changes in his bedtime and daytime routines, no more feeding to sleep, putting DS into his own room, some controlled crying and no more breast feeds at night we had a different baby within a week.

I feel for you OP - sleep deprivation is HORRENDOUS