8 month terrible sleeper & sleep training not working... help!

[Schwanengesang]

DS (8 months) is a big wee laddie, 99th centile height, 75th weight & into 18 month old clothes. He has always been a pretty bad sleeper, waking every hour or so (can't link sleep cycles), but it seems to be getting worse recently so he will often be awake for 3+ hours in the middle of the night and cluster feed for hours too.

I don't feed to sleep unless it happens by accident (then I just let him sleep). I usually gently disengage when he's sleepy and put him on my shoulder and pat his bottom. Obviously this doesn't help (bad habit) but I just cannot get him to sleep any other way.

We have been trying having DH resettle him at night other than a dream feed and another feed at about 3am, then DH going t bed & I take over. After 2 weeks, DS still wakes up all the time - it seems to have made no difference. DH is now just knackered and grumpy and refusing to do more nights after this week (he works, I don't, so it seems reasonable that he needs to get enough sleep to be able to work long hours).

The cot mattress is raised at the head end, and we are trying omeprazole for 2 weeks (again, seems to have made no difference). Heating is on 19 deg but room usually is colder, DS sleeps in about 3 layers on top/ just nappy & socks, under a sleeping bag (arms out), with a cellular blanket over the top. He seems neither too hot nor too cold.

Daytime naps are usually something like 9-9.30, 12.30-3, 4-4.45.

Dinner is 5.30 (usually grumpy by the end), then bath, then a feed, then I hand him to DH and he is asleep by 7. Then he wakes up screaming about 8.30-9, is resettled, wakes 9.30, 10, 11ish and stays awake grizzling, I go in for a feed at 11.30, DH then spends til 2am resettling him, he wakes at 3 screaming, I feed him, DH then goes to bed, and I spend the rest of the night trying to get DS to stop feeding and go to sleep but he shrieks if I stop the cluster feeding. It stops about 7am when he decides to get up for the day.

He eats something like the following:

Breakfast: 2 ice cubes (melted, obviously!) of stewed apple, 2 tablespoons of rice cereal, tablespoon of yoghurt. Breastfeed both sides about 9am, Lunch 11.30, 1 piece toast, egg, cucumber sticks, 1 ice cube eachof stewed pumpkin & apple to hide omeprazole. Breastfeed both sides before nap. Afternoon tea 1 pouch of rice pudding. Breastfeed before nap. Dinner is often 1 tablespoon wholegrain cereal, half a weetabix, 2 teaspoons nut paste; or chunkily-pureed peas, spinach, yoghurt, mint, cucumber. Then breastfeed before bed, feeds 11.30, 3, & cluster feed 3-7ish. I offer water at meals but he usually doesnt want any (sometimes does, so knows how o drink from sippy cup).

What are we doing wrong? How much should he be sleeping?
What about food?

Arrggggh...

Hi OP, i would batch cook at the weekend when OH can have him, we do simple stuff like bolognese/pasta in tomato sauce/cottage pie/chicken stew etc
We also keep baby food pouches in of things we wouldn't eat (lamb for example)
My baby at that age was on 7oz bottle 7am followed by 2 table spoons baby porridge with half a fruit pouch mixed in, 10:30 snack of breadstick and fruit sticks or crumpet/pancake/toast, lunch she had around 100-120g portion plus a dessert (Ella mango rice pud is her favorite) 2:30 3oz bottle, 4-4:30 120g portion of a meat free meal such as fish or pasta and tomato sauce, 5:30-6 fruit pot, 7pm 7oz bottle.
I know people might say that's not enough milk but she wont take more, for a month now has only been taking about an oz of her 2:30 bottle, she just wants solids. She drinks water well too throughout the day, she eats in the same routine now but bigger portions, 130-150g meals and more textured (nearly 11m old)

I honestly can't remember what I did with ds (pfb)but it doesn't matter as he was awake all bloody night at that age! With dd she was smaller than your baby but eating much more.
Breakfast- one wheetabix with f and a banana, maybe some shreddies. Toast with butter.
Mid morning- we had usually made it to a cafe by that point so would have some toasted t cake or crumpets. If not then some fruit or cheese.
Lunch- hummus and cucumber and pitas, sandwiches, soup, scrambled eggs/beans on toast, wraps.
Mid afternoon snack of some description
Tea- shepherds pie, fish pie, spaghetti bolognaise, veg, stews, various 'tray bakes'
7-7.30- formula feed

On top of that I would offer bf every 2 hours (or whenever she wanted), by 8 months she was still bf fairly regularly but often just for a couple ofminutes. She would wake in the night once and I would either bf her and then bring her into our bed or just bring her into our bed.

Wrt temperature, does your baby have vest+ two tops+ gro bag+ blanket? That would have been too much for my ds, but probably ok for dd (unless she was in our bed, then just a babygrow)

Jumparoos are fantastic. Play pens are great, although we just used a travel cot. How does he nap? If he has a couple of hours in the afternoon I would cook then.

Is he crawling yet?

Thanks everyone

We're not in the UK. Winter here at the moment, zero outside at night, sleety and windy; house is insulated every way possible (roof, floors, walls, double glazing, layered curtains) but still struggles to hold heat. So setting the heating on 19 means chucking hot dry air into a cold hallway & room, heat that just gets sucked out through that damn uninsulated bricked-up chimney in the wall. Even in summer it's always below 10 at night outside. So unsure of his room temp on any given night but it's probably not 19.

Thus clothing has been trial and error going from the recommended number of layers with a crying cold baby, to cautiously adding one layer after another til he actually seems happy and comfortable. When we go somewhere with lots of heating (like the hospital) I remove layers down to what's recommended, and he is fine - so I think it's just htat our house is cold.

Movement: not crawling

Playpens/ jumperoos/ etc: will look into what's available.

Food: getting more in! We tend to eat fairly low-calorie high-volume stuff like stir fries with loads of vegies and brown rice and almost no meat; or brown pasta with hummus and veg. So will start looking through recipe books to see about more calorie-dense food with more protein and fat. And buy in some pouches...

He's currently in a food coma after lunch of toast/hummus/pumpkin, and mashed up egg & sardines & mayo, which he practically inhaled. He also voluntarily drank lots of water. The bib was clean at the end of the meal- always a sign of enjoyment!

Yeah the low volume stuff is good for adults but babies need the fat and calories!

Are you in Nz by any chance? If so then 🥑 Is a good thing to have on toast. But we just chucked butter on everything. His weight has gone up a bit now. He's also addicted to butter...

Sounds good op. Your diet is great for adults trying to lose or maintain weight but little children need more fat and dairy. Brown rice, pasta and bread isn't recommended here because the high fibre just fills them up without providing nutrients. I give mine granary sometimes but mainly white pasta etc. My dc also had limited meat but quite a bit of fish, I think it's easier the chew at this age. Fish pie with creamy parsley sauce and buttery mash always went down well.

I only used pouches very occasionally with mine but they seemed to prefer the For Aisha ones- not sure if you can get them where you are!

Update - lots more food going in, following FATE's timetable for feeds & meals, rice pud is a favourite - but sleep is still pretty bad. Waking after every sleep cycle and feeding nonstop 4-7 am. Naps are also now worse in that the long one in the middle of the day has shortened to 30min. Taking him swimming means he sleeps very deeply with a long first sleep cycle of about 1.5 hours and all subsequent wake-ups are short until the 4am one. But he's still waking every 45 min or so and the cluster feeding at the end of the night is still there.

Thoughts on a dummy as a way of trying to settle without waking between sleep cycles?

Think it's all been said but -

Sounds like he is hungry. He's a big baby having not much solid food. Even my smallest has more than you are giving him. Let him eat until he's sated. As long as it's good, home cooked food he won't over eat.

Stop night feeds. He doesn't need them from nutritional perspective. He'll be cross for a couple of nights but get over it quickly.

Let him settle himself when he wakes. Don't rush to pacify. Children need to learn how to go to sleep by themselves.

Invest in a playpen. We also used a bouncy swing/ aeroplane thing in the kitchen doorway. Babywalker was good too - but only for limited period because they can delay walking and cause hip problems if used excessively

So far tonight he's gone down at 7, woken 7.05, 7.30, 8.15, 9.15 (it's 9.30 here). I have resettled him without feeding each time but it's taken 15 minutes every time.

Thoughts on a dummy as a way of trying to settle without waking between sleep cycles?

Definitely a good idea.

It's not a magic wand, so set some realistic expectations. But its it's a quick, easy and no-stress way to get baby back to sleep.

The benefits of dummy resettles resettle is that

• they don't involve moving baby, so baby gets used to waking and going back to sleep all within the cot, without being picked up
• if you have the cot next to your bed, dumny reinserts can be done without you getting out of bed
• if you also have an easy way to find baby (I sewed ribbons into the chest of sleeping bags with a press stud at the end for a dummy) it means you can find and replace dummy without even opening your eyes or getting up.
• by about 10 months old, as long as dummy is easy for baby to find, baby can learn to reinsert own dummy upon waking. This is a game-changer. There are things you can do to help baby learn this quicker.

If you are currently feeding every wake up at night, you will get some protest at any settling method that isn't feeding. So there may be some battles.

Thanks FATE. Will get a dummy when it stops bloody snowing and I can get down the hill to the supermarket.

Since DH's training last few weeks I have been trying to do as many rock/pat/ssshes back to sleep rather than feeds back to sleep as posdible. This is generally the first few wake ups and after that DS is having none of it...

No joy on the dummy. He won't take it at all during the night, and just sees it as a boring toy during the day, less good for chewing than his duck...

No idea what next. So, so tired that i really wonder how much more i can cope with. Can't get a break.

8 months is really late to introduce a dummy. Worth a try, but it doesn't surprise me that baby won't accept it.

How about leaning into the cot with your hand on baby's chest/back? Some shushing and patting as needed. Baby will cry through this, it's unlikely to be a calm, peaceful bedtime. But should improve with time.

I feel numb with tiredness, so this is probably a good time to ride through a few nights of tears, as they won't stress me as much as if I were not dizzy and walking into walls.

I'm at the same point as you. Can't go on anymore with the lack of sleep so I started 'sleep training' last night- sounds better than leaving baby crying right?! 😰
Maybe we could do it together?
So last night my baby went to bed at 8pm and woke at 9:30pm- settled quick with dummy.
Woke at 10pm-settled with 5/10mins crying with dummy.
Woke at 11pm and that was it- he was awake crying, wanting boob, from 11-1am. 😮 Horrendous but I have to say it was no worse than I feared and his cries were actually mad rather than lots of tears? His cot is up against my bed so I was lying next to him the whole time shushing and stroking face periodically. He then slept 1-4:30 but when he woke at 4:30 he did another 1.5 hours crying (did same as above) and he slept 6-7am. Strangely when he woke at 7am he wasn't crying like previous wakes, he was chatting away and when I turned my head to look at him he was smiling away?! I then fed him Not going to lie, slightly shell shocked this morning (me!) but he seems his usual Self?! Currently all having brekkie

Thanks Polly. We have been trying refusing feeding and rocking and dummies etc., nothing has resulted in much sleep. However last night was a bit better.

He slept 5-6pm (unscheduled nap, was very heavily asleep about 1 minute into a feed, so I just let him sleep) then had late dinner, no bath.
Had a feed at 7, into the cot awake at 7.15 with the dummy, lights out (nightlight - red darkroom bulb - on). He played with the dummy until 8. Cried 'til 8.15 in my arms, then asleep.
Awake & crying 9, picked up & held, cried on and off, down 9.40pm.
Up crying 11pm, fed, asleep 11.10pm.

Awake crying 12.30, fed, down 1am.
Up crying 3.15, held, down 3.30.
Up 4 crying, held, down 4.20.
Up for feed 5.15, fed & grizzled until poo at 6.30am, then we got up for the day.

So 11h30 hours "sleep time" with about 7 hours' sleep and 4.5 hours' awake time in 7 wakeups. Much better than recent nights where total sleep time has been more like 3 or 4 hours.

Forgot to say he was quite happy with sucking the dummy, banging it on the cot bars, etc in the first hour, but afterwards wouldn't have it at all.

I did the feeds at 11, 12.30, 5.15 as there has been a lot more feeding than that previously, and it's pretty dry with the heating (hot dry air blowing into the room). The first feed was very quick so I figured he could do with more at the next wake-up. If we can establish just a midnight-ish and 5am ish feed and sleeping the rest of the time that sounds AMAZING

Wow. Bedtime tonight after swimming and only 2 naps (9.30-10am & 12-2): 6-6.10 feed, in cot drowsy & grizzling, asleep 6.12!!

I think it's the knackered post-swimming post-warm-bath had food at 4pm, raster than last night's sleep training. But today's nap in the cot only took 20 mins to get him to sleep (lots of playing with the dummy), then about 3 to get him into the next sleep cycle from 1-2pm, and the crying was token grizzling rather than real distress. So there may be progress!

The only other thing I would add OP is that I think he might be ready to drop the afternoon nap.

I think DS was on 9:00-9:30 and then 12:30-2:30/3pm by 8 months and had dropped the afternoon one.

Might be worth giving it a try if you're stuck

for you - lack of sleep sucks

Yep, have dropped it, though he is practically asleep by 5pm.

Last 2 nights' sleep:

Monday, day of swimming & no second nap:
2 naps (9.30-10am & 12-2)
Feed 6-6.10, in cot drowsy, asleep 6.12
Awake 7.02, picked up, aslepp in arms 7.04
Awake 7.59, picked up, asleep in arms 8.00
Awake 9.39, feed, nappy change, feed, playing with dummy, grizzling, down 10.56pm
Up 2.08, feed, down 2.23
Up 3.20, down 3.34
Up 4.30, feed, nappy, grizzling, awake for the day

So roughly 10 hours' sleep time at night, of which about 7 was asleep and 3 ish awake in 6 wake ups.

Tuesday (no swim, but also no second nap):

Nap 9.35-10.15
Nap 12.30-2.15 (took 20 mins from 12.10 to get to sleep)
Very close to sleep several times from 4pm onwards

Feed 6.10-asleep 6.20, down pretty much asleep 6.25
Up 7.03, down 7.17
Up 8.17, down 8.21
Up 9.15 cried to 9.30, fed, down 9.40
Up 11.10, down 11.15
up12.30, feed, nappy, feed, down 1am
Up 3, down 3.10
Up 3.55, down 4.05
Up 5 feed, down 5.30
Up for day 5.40am

So about 11 hours' sleep time at night, roughly 2 hours total awake, meaning NINE HOURS ISH ASLEEP!!!!

This is definitely progress...

Is in-cot settling not possible?

Have a read of this mumsnet thread called What worked for us. The opening post has a great explanation for in-cot settling in a gentle way.

I agree in-cot settling will sort it but you will have to prepare for a few bad nights. So Ive night weaned and night 1 I posted about previously. Fast forward to last night, which I think is night 4?, he slept 7:30-12am settled with dummy quickly then that was it until 06:30. He honestly was as bad as your baby until 4 days ago. Just go for it if you feel you can? Is cot up against your bed as Fate suggested? Coz then u won't need to pick baby up you can just lie with arm on them cuddling them, yes he will still cry but it's not as bad you imagine because it's not like you've abandoned them?
Once I have no dummy inserts overnight I intend to them move DS into his own room again. Good luck Hun

Working on it. First ever successful in cot settle from awake to asleep over 20 mins was to ight. I decided to break it down into not feeding & settling in cot as I am a bit of a wuss/ quite tire and it seemed easier

Your putting him down asleep ?
That sounds like the issue.
Baby needs to go to sleep where they stay asleep