Does this count as crying it out? Other suggestions?

[7thInningStretch]

DD is 8 months old and screams herself to sleep every night from anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour. She used to feed to sleep and that was fine but it's just stopped working. She wants me to walk with her but my back is buggered and I just can't do it for that long. I'm holding her and shushing and patting but she's so upset. She's just sobbing. Any ideas?

What happens between 6.30pm and 9pm?

Also, what was happening when she fed to sleep, and how recently did that stop?

She has a bath, sing a lullaby, say goodnight to various stuffed toys. Then I lay down with her to feed. She used to nod off and then I'd lift her into the cot or if she didn't she'd start howling and I'd get up and walk until she fell asleep. Since she started to crawl it's all gone completely to hell. Now she feeds and pops up on all fours and starts mountaineering all over the bed. I pop her in the cot. She plays until she's fed up then starts howling. I lift her out try to feed to sleep again. She mostly refuses and starts the crawling/howling. This goes on for ages and ages while I slowly lose the will to live. She will go without screaming if I just walk with her but I just can't do it any more. She's too heavy.

At this point I would try just leaving her for five minutes or so and seeing if she's just so tired that she'll drop off.

If not I'd do controlled crying or similar method.

I really think it sounds like she's tired, but just can't bring herself to lie down because she's too excited about her new skills!

It doesn't sound like something you'd be comfortable with though, which is absolutely fair enough.

I don't think I've got any other advice (maybe just wait it out?), but good luck!

OK. I would stop trying to mimic what you used to do and start afresh, with a new way of settling.

Firstly set your expectations - this is not a magic wand. It won't be easy. It won't give you results straight away and it won't necessarily stop night wakes etc.

I would feed baby downstairs, before amy part of bedtime routine starts. Then upstairs 7-8pm, depending on naps (aim for 4h awake time) and do your normal bath/teeth/song routine then into the cot. Fully awake.

Lie yourself next to the cot (I assume it's next to your bed) on your bed and lean an arm into the cot. Or if the cot is in another room bend down into the cot as stood next to the cot).

Hand placed firmly on chest/back/side. Not pushing down but quite firmly, so baby can feel you there even with her eyes closed.

It sort-of gently pins baby down, as well as being your reassuring presence. A second hand helps if legs are kicking around. You are trying to teach baby that in order to to to sleep, she needs to lie down on her cot and be still. So make these (not going to sleep) your goal.

If she squirms around, keep her still with your hands. If she fights against your hands then remove your hands and lie her back down, starting again. Any time she goes for getting up, moving, squirming around - you encourage stillness.

So while doing this, you also want to encourage quiet alongside the stillness - then you get calm. Calm is the initial state that is needed before baby can relax and then sleep.

So to encourage quiet I would use a dumny to comfort suck. Or maybe a muslin square to vgew on or a cuddly toy. Introducing a comforter toy is a good idea. They don't normally get noticed until 12 months old or so, but having it in place ready for then is a good idea.

With your firm hands do gentle pats or strokes to try and calm baby down. Not constantly, that gets too simulating, but if she needs calming. The off shushhhhh helps too. But again, not all the time. The main aim is still, quiet, calm.

As soon as you get to still, quiet, calm, don't move a muscle. Stay there, hands on baby and wait. Completely still, don't try to extract yourself otherwise it just teaches mistrust ("as soon as I relax, mummy goes. So I must fight to not relax so that mummy stays").

As I said, this isn't going to work 'just like that'. But you have to have faith and trust that you can do it. That baby can do it.

I really appreciate everyone's help. I'm willing to try pinning her down but she's going to be hysterical. Is that really any better than controlled crying? I feel a little funny about pinning her down while she screams but I reckon DH could do it. How many nights do you think it would take?

I should have said she has silent reflux. But it seems well controlled with Ranitidine. I wonder if it used to hurt when she laid flat and now she screams when she lies down because she anticipating the pain?

Don't let her her hysterical. If she fights against your firm hand, let go, lift and resettle her back down.

As I said, this is not a magic wand. It's not going to be easy.

Controlled crying involves leaving baby to cry on own. So no, definately definitely not controlled crying.

Gosh, you are completely misunderstanding me if you think she needs to be pinned down while she screams

If you prefer harsher methods, I'm happy to back out and let others talk you through controlled crying or whatever. I'm all about gentle techniques though.

One of my twins would fall asleep on my bed, looking at me while I sang to her.

Ds would feed to sleep with Ewan the dream sheeps white noise. This progressed to Ewan's music. Every time I fed him at night I played Ewan, every single time. I think Ewan woukd send me off too! However he transitioned from my bed to his bed, age 2, fantastically, whenever he woke he pressed Ewan's music hoof.

My other twin likes a tiny scream if she's bored of feeding. 1 or 2 mins. She also likes her cheek being tapped!

Feed to sleep laying on your bed?

I agree she sounds overtired but it sounds like you're trying to get her down at the right time.

One of mine went through a phase where wouldn't lie down to feed to sleep and wanted to sit up/crawl. Sounds really similar to what you describe.

What worked was feeding diagonally across my body in similar to biological/laid back nursing position. I had to hold quite firm and sort of rock with my leg/rock my body until settled. I used to pat bum and shhhhhh loudly.

I had to do this for naps too-it almost meant I was fighting to keep baby on me but the alternative was what you describe, hours of screaming.

It was just a phase and then went back to feeding more normally and easily to sleep lying down.

You have just described exactly what is going on in our house, to the letter! DS (9 months) used to settle by 7.30 with a shhh pat and a dummy no problems. Has done since he was 8 weeks old. He has just started crawling and can pull himself up to stand, this seems to have completely shot his naps and bedtime - nothing else has changed so it must be that?? Nothing works to get him to sleep now, he seems wired whether he's been awake four hours or six, screams once he's in the cot and just keeps pulling himself up over and over again. It's like he can't help it, enjoys it loads and then gets totally beside himself because he's tired and can't stay still. I would happily feed or rock him to sleep but he won't have it! He just seems to want to scramble about until he drops and the gaps between naps are therefore getting ridiculous. It can't be good for him to be awake so long but if I try and force the issue we have hours of crying. I can't stand to hear him cry so hard so after tonights fiasco no way am I doing that again. Trouble is he just clambers everywhere and it's 10.30 before he's asleep. So in conclusion I have no advice but lots of sympathy, maybe this is a dreaded 'phase'. Hopefully a short lived one. Following!!!

I wasn't meaning to misrepresent your idea FATE. I'm bone tired and that was more just my abbreviated way of referring to what you were suggesting. I promise I'm not planning on sitting on the baby. I was trying to think about what would be the kindest way for her if it's all going to involve lots of screaming anyway. It's awful for me to listen to her cry and I suppose I'm after the fastest solution (although there may not be one!). That said I don't think I have controlled crying in me. Sorry I'm rambling. I need to sleep. She's clearly very uncomfortable tonight and is still unsettled at 1am. She hasn't done a poo in a few days so perhaps she constipated or teeth or the reflux meds need to be adjusted or evil fairies have descended upon her. Surely it's one of those, right?

I have to say it is cruel to the child to just put them in the cot and leave them. They depend on us and when we do that to them it is proven to be damaging both emotionally and pyschologically . Your best bet is white noise . An app or YouTube. YouTube has brilliant womb sounds which work a treat but never leave them alone to cry it out because they learn to not depend on or trust you

Also white noise works in literally seconds to calm then sleep in minutes. TV static works too. I also suggest lie on your bed ( feeding or not )with baby. Bring in mother's arms is all the comfort they need to feel safe and relaxed enough to sleep.

Mine all dropped to one nap at that age & fought sleep & woke in the night to sleep crawl

Things that worked -
Bounced on gym ball with baby in arms
Walking with baby in sling (wrap)
Lie on the bed in the dark & be very very boring (but have a boob out...)
No transfer once asleep on bed, just get a bed guard
Two of them needed their legs held still by hands or blanket

On the CIO question the hormones are quite different if there is a trusted caregiver with them (think of the difference between crying on your own v.s cuddled up by your DP).

'They depend on us and when we do that to them it is proven to be damaging both emotionally and pyschologically'

That is absolutely not true. If you don't like the idea of controlled crying or other similar methods, that's fine, each to their own. It's extremely unhelpful to cite imaginary evidence that it causes psychological and emotional harm though!

There is no evidence whatsoever, that an otherwise loved and cared for, securely attached baby will suffer any harm whatsoever from crying for short periods.

If you are conducting a long term study into the effects of controlled crying and have research that shows that children who were 'sleep trained' in this way have suffered long term psychological harm I would be very interested to read it! Do please post a link.

www.bellybelly.com.au/baby-sleep/controlled-crying/

www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports%3famp#ampshare=www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports%3famp#ampshare=www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201407/parents-misled-cry-it-out-sleep-training-reports

www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/family-relationships-and-sex/parenting-controlled-crying-may-harm-babies-in-later-life-20140724-zvyek.html

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8636950.stm

evolutionaryparenting.com/controlled-crying-cortisol-and-attachment-a-critical-look/

Ok, I'll read through them.

Link one: Is not a link to a study, it's a link to a parenting website reporting second or possibly third hand their view of the research. On this site they say:

'There have been recent studies (Middlemiss et al., 2011; Price et al., 2012) on the effect of controlled crying on infants, which have shown varying results.

'No studies on controlled crying that we have reviewed stand up to rigorous scrutiny'

They make no claim of some magical research that shows any link between controlled crying in well loved babies and any harm, psychological or emotional.

The second link is from Pinky McKay a well known advocate against controlled crying. She cites the AAIMH as does the other link. The paper from the AAIMH is over ten years old I believe. And they specifically say in the paper that the reference list does not include any studies on the impact of controlled crying on infants.

They've used other evidence (e.g. from Romanian orphans) to support their claims. There is no research quoted that shows that well loved babies or even normally cared for babies suffer harm from CC.

The third link is not to a study, it's to Psychology Today! So, is again a journalists review of very patchy research.

In this article she states that the research 'doesn’t even examine harm to babies!' and that the research in not well done due to 'poor designs, fidelity, analysis show it is UNRELIABLE.'

The link you gave me to prove the research.....says the research is unreliable at best and doesn't even examine the issue at hand at worst.