Cry it out :(

[Neverknowing]

I recently posted about my 8 month old DDs sleep and decided I would continue to breastfeed to sleep and co sleep with her as we were both happy.
I just found out I need an operation soon though and so need DD to learn to sleep through the night ASAP as she will just be with DP at night and he obviously cannot breastfeed her (and must be at work by 7am). I have spoken to other mums at baby group who have recommended CIO, which honestly I've always been very against but needs must and all. I'm extremely sad about it tonight, it's the first night we're doing it and I'm about to put her down.
Anyways sorry for the waffle (can you tell I'm feeling horribly guilty) can anyone tell me if this worked for them and if it did how long it took?!

Never, give her a chance! Don't worry. They really do sometimes just do epic sleeps! Some days naps don't go well but next day can be fine.

You know what way you need thing to be for your family to function so it's up to you to make that routine and once she gets it, she'll be happy too. Kids are very flexible but do love predictability.

Neverknowing - what sleeping arrangements are you aiming for in your 1 bed flat?

If she's only 8 months old and you've been breastfeeding and co-sleeping, it's difficult to understand that you've tried everything (not criticising just trying to understand as you may get some better advice).

I've never done it myself but night weaning and gradual withdrawal (with no crying) can take weeks and weeks (possibly months?).

Your DD could possibly be so tired as being left to cry releases stress hormones which may mean she hasn't had a restful sleep. Or, sometimes they do just sleep longer.

If your DD is in a cot in your room, it's going to be difficult to do CC (unless you and DH are going to wait outside the room if/when she wakes up in the night and then sneak back in).

There is nothing wrong with feeding to sleep so don't feel guilting but it will probably make it difficult to do CC if you are breastfeeding as sometimes she'll fall asleep on the breast and it's often difficult to keep them awake!

You need to decide what you want-if you want to continue co-sleeping long term you could carry on until your operation and then get DH to co-sleep until you are recovered (either with DD on his side of the bed with a bed guard or make cot into side cot as FATE suggests).

Or, if you would prefer her to sleep in her cot, you could try more gentle sleep training methods.

Or, you could do what a lot of people do-start off on her cot/put her in cot when she is happy to go and then bring her into the bed (with DP if you are unable to) when she wakes/is unsettled. It's normally something they grow out of with time and often people do whatever it takes to get the most sleep until it passes.

I understand it must be really worrying and stressful having to go into hospital but I'm not sure CC is your only option and don't really see how it will 'work' anyway if she is in your room.

Does your budget allow for a sleep consultant? If I were in your shoes, I would go down that route as they will be able to advise you the kindest way to get her sleeping through before your surgery and talk you through it each day.

We used one for my (then) 5.5 month old daughter and it was the best £100 spent. There are so many little things that you or I would think are not significant but make a big difference between success and failure and the consultant can give advice on these things.
As a pp said, consistency is the absolutely key to success - changing your mind or going to them after a certain point just means that next time they will cry that much harder for that much longer so you give in. I'm not against cc at all but I would find that impossible to tolerate, especially if I were in the room. Whilst Mumsnet is brilliant for support, I feel a downside to it is that you will start something then posters come along and tell you they don't agree/to try something new which you then consider and you lose the consistency. Don't get me wrong, all advice on here is well intentioned but it is so much easier listening to one person who has qualifications in the area and just putting your trust in them.

Another thing the consultant did was get us into a routine - she explained that getting baby to sleep when their drive to sleep is at it's maximum (particularly for naps) will enable them to go down with minimal protest. There are certain windows in the day where this happens more easily. Likewise, there is a window they will go down easier for the night. I followed her routine to the letter for the first 2 months and now we have good sleep associations established, I have moved around her timings to suit us a little more (so her dad gets more time with her) and she still sleeps well.

There are also lots of other little details she went through and I'm confident that it was these little bits that meant our sleep training was successful.

Oh and just to give you an idea, my daughter is almost 8 months, sleeps in my room and is still ebf (have started solids but it's going slowly). She doesn't sleep through the night (it was never my aim to get her sleeping through the night so we didn't work on this) but does an 8-10 hour stretch, has a feed then goes back to sleep. She does 11-12 hours at night plus total 3 hours napping split over 2 naps (short then long).
Either my husband or I follow a sleep routine, put her down and leave the room. She is asleep within 10 minutes and usually stays asleep for the duration of her nap. She wakes content and does not demand attention as soon as she wakes - gurgles to herself and moves around her cot until we get her.

I'm really sorry I keep missing peoples questions, I'm not tying to ignore any there's just a lot!
DD goes to bed at 7 and we go to bed around 10, at which point she's fast asleep. She tends to wake once in the night at about 12.30 and we both leave the room. She doesn't really cry, just moans and then falls back asleep.
I need her to be sleeping in a cot by the time I get out of hospital as I won't be able to go to her in the night and if she's in the bed there's a strong change I could crush her as the medication I'll be on will mean I will be sleeping very deeply. DP sleeps through crying as he is hard of hearing and on anti depressants which make him very sleepy (again complicated situation) so really when I go to hospital she'll be left to cry anyway. My MIL was going to stay but can't now and as I said she needs to be sleeping in her cot as I won't be able to co sleep when I get out (i wish I could I actually love co sleeping)
@riddles26 this sounds amazing. I will look into a consultant but I have to go to hospital pretty soon so don't have time to follow specific routine for long. This needs to work fast I've already put off having this op to get DD more settled.

She will also only fall asleep if she's fed to sleep, she refuses to be rocked or anything else. I need to teach her to fall asleep independently.

How long do you have? A week is enough time to get a routine started and start teaching her to fall asleep independently then your husband will have to continue it once you go into hospital. If you are both on the same page and happy to follow what an expert says, my advice would be to do that.

You can move things around a couple of months down the like like we did (or not at all and just stick to the routine you have been given).

Often with sleep training, you will have to 'revisit' it at times, for example after your baby has been sick or you come back from holiday or they go through a developmental leap.

I would guess that even if you get your DD sleeping in her cot, you being in hospital is likely to unsettle her and there is a good chance you will have to re-do the sleep training when you come out of hospital.

Is it really practical for you to both leave the room in the night, especially if you are recovering from an operation? I would worry you will both become exhausted. It's one thing getting half woken up in night and staying in bed feeding baby back to sleep. It's another having to wake up properly and sit outside the bedroom then try to get back to sleep again. Imagine if you have to do that several times when you get out of hospital.

Is the medication you are on a short or long term thing? If short term and you would like to go back to co-sleeping (I only mention this as you have said a few times you love it) then you will be putting DD through CC for nothing if you are going to co-sleep long term anyway.

If you want a short term solution to DD sleeping in her cot, I would just muddle through as best you can. (If this is what you want then you will probably get lots of tips on how to do this).

If you want a long term solution then you may need to look at night weaning first, then finding another way for her to sleep.
If your aim is her not feeding through the night and sleeping in her cot in your room with you and DP in the bed, then there will be lots of good advice on here of how to best achieve that.

Your DD will probably be quite distressed having her primary carer in hospital (obviously you can't help this) but I do think there are ways to minimise the upset to her and avoiding CC is probably one of them.

She's going from breastfeeding/co-sleeping to being left on her own to cry, plus no milk through the night suddenly - if you add in ontop of that her mum going into hospital, it really is a lot to put a small baby through.

It does sound a difficult situation, especially when you explain DPs medication and hearing loss but there must be a better way.

Would the cot with the side down on DPs side not work? Surely he would hear/see her waking up then and could comfort/settle her without leaving her to cry.
If he's getting up to leave the room, he must be waking up.

She tends to wake once in the night at about 12.30 and we both leave the room

Is that really what you do? Or are you just saying that because it's been pointed out that CC with you in the room is a bit unusual?

I can't begin to imagine the bizzaire psychology you are setting up there: baby communicating "I'm upset mummy, comfort me like you normally do" and worse than just ignoring baby in another room, you physically get up and walk out on her as soon as she needs you. So underlining in triplicate your discompassion towards her?

That is so awful that I think you are lying. I don't really know why. I suspect there's more to it.

Why don't you just stay in bed and lean an arm over into the cot to reassure her (while still not feeding or picking up)?

I probably have a week @riddles26 but not entirely sure as I'm waiting. As soon as I know I have to go in pretty much. What was it you did with your DC?
We tried co sleeping with the cot side down but our bed has a sort of rim (?) so she could fall down into it (and as Dp is hard of hearing I'd be worried he wouldn't hear her!!)
There's no chance of us ever being able to go back to co sleeping unfortunately

@FATEdestiny this is what we do. I don't see how lying on an anonymous forum would help me. I was originally just looking for a handhold but I'm second guessing this as tbh I'm struggling and i don't really think what we're currently doing is helping for DD in particular. I just want to know what I can do.
I will try putting my hand into her cot because honestly I think she may go back to sleep like this. She seems to still be asleep and tends to go back to sleep fairly fast.
There's not a lot I can do about being in a one bed place ATM, we were trying to buy a house but I had to pull out until I'm better.

Why dont you just lean an arm over the cot and stroke her when she wakes?

Surely that's easier than both getting up and leaving the room

If your husband's hard of hearing can you get something like a vibrating baby monitor so he wakes your little one gets distressed while you're in hospital?

I'll try that @FATEdestiny. The reason we haven't been doing this was because I wanted to 'follow the rules' of controlled crying. I don't want to do anything to make it longer or sabotage our efforts

@NerrSnerr sorry I didn't make this clear DP can hear he just has perforated eardrums from a head injury. I just worry he won't be able to hear her as a lot of the time he sleeps through her crying. Maybe I'm overthinking?
Has anyone tried any other methods they think might be better?!

Ok, that makes it a bit easier to help if it's definitely a long term thing.

Are you looking to night wean her or stop breastfeeding altogether?

Long term, if she wakes in her cot in the night are you wanting to comfort her to help get her back to sleep or stay in the room and ignore her or are you happy to get up and go out of the room?

A bit drastic but a new bed? Just thinking, if you're in a one bed flat and she's going to be in the room with you anyway, it might just make your lives so much easier by being able to settle her back to sleep when she is right next to you.

Thank you for your responses @littletwofeet !!
She has slept much better since we started sleep training her (using fading and ferberising) she only wakes once in the night and goes back to sleep pretty easy, so is practically night weaned already. I need her to fall asleep on her own though. If I feed her to sleep at night, I start at half six and she'll kick and punch my face and sometimes even scream at me until about 11 at night. I then co sleep with her for the rest of the night. When she's asleep she sleeps through until morning but it's been hard and will obviously be harder once I've had the op. She also refuses to go to sleep without feeding. I'll be worried when I'm away it's causing her extra stress!

If you're looking to settle her in the cot when she wakes in the night then I wouldn't do CC at the beginning of the night.

If you want to get her to fall asleep without feeding to sleep at the start of the night, there are gentle ways to do this.

If you want to carry on with CC, I'm just not sure it's the best thing with you sleeping in the same room. You're teaching her that you don't come when she needs you so she literally gives up and sobs herself to sleep. Then when she wakes up in the night, you either comfort her in the cot (in which case why didn't you do that when she was crying for you at bedtime, it's a bit confusing for her) or you walk out when she needs you and leave her alone.
From a practical point of view, do you think this is realistic when you've had your operation.

I know you said it has worked, the evidence shows that it does work short term but long term there is no difference between babies that were sleep trained and those that weren't.

There are obviously benefits to you doing CC (short term better sleep) but there is a detriment to your DD doing CC. You've got to decide if the benefit outweighs this. If you feel it does in your circumstances, then you may have to re-think your sleeping areangents. Travel cot on your landing maybe? Sofa bed downstairs?

I used PU/PD, she was too young for CC and I don't know if I would have the strength to do it (not that I'm against doing it, just very weak when she cries). PU/PD takes longer and more perseverance though so unlikely to be a viable option for you due to time constraints.

I recommend use a consultant because you can discuss your entire situation with them in detail and then they will propose a solution - you will get lots of opinions on here and they will leave you even more confused. That's the last thing you want once you've started an intervention and the one thing that is genuinely cruel is to give your daughter mixed messages as she won't know what behaviour you want her to change.

On the contrary to littletwofeet, the sleep consultant and all research I did said that if you want her to self settle, she needs to put herself to sleep at the beginning of the night, no matter how long it takes as that is when there is greatest pressure to sleep. That way, she can use the same method to get to sleep each time she wakes up. Sleep training with a consultant starts in the evening with going down for the night and the same method is applied for every subsequent nap or sleep.

In terms of sleep training and sleeping in the same room, we never leave the room if she stirs at night. It's dark and it's fine she knows we are there. I make sure she has her comforter, reassure her and get into my bed. If she is crying, I use PU/PD until she is calm (not needed now).

I may put a travel cot in the hallway, I hadn't really thought about the fact it upsets her that we walk out because we had been laying her down and saying shh and then walking out.
I think you're right @littletwofeet. Your advice is really helpful, thank you. This was what I was told to do by my HV when I said that I had to go into hospital so it really can't be that bad. It just feels mean and I am only half hearted applying it because of what I've read on here so I think I need to do all or nothing. Tonight is night three so I'm going to keep doing it for six days and if no improvement then I'll stop.
I'm going to keep updating so that people in similar situations can see the full pictures

Also thank you @riddles26. I need to man up I think I'm causing more harm than good ATM. DD is getting mixed messages because I'm taking advice from too many people just need to stick to my guns.

Hi everyone, DD goes down for bedtime fairly well now. Doesn't really cry by whines a bit, which is still sad tbh.
I've stopped bothering trying to do it for daytime naps for now and I feed her to sleep or she goes to sleep in her pram. She doesn't get any daytime sleep if I do CC for naps because she cries for the hour and then I have to pick her up so I'm not really sure how to do it and there's no info online. So I guess I just gave up because she needs to sleep.
It's also very difficult to keep a nap schedule if we want to do anything in the day unless she falls asleep in her pram ofc.

I know other people will disagree but I don't think that you have to do the same thing for all sleeps. Lots of people do different things for naps to bedtime and their babies sleep fine at night.

Would you not consider lying with her at bedtime until she falls asleep? Especially if you're going to be there in the night when she wakes up anyway. Sorry, I really don't mean to make you feel bad its just you say you feel sad about it and it seems like you're not happy and maybe feel it's the wrong thing to do.
I do really feel for you in your situation, I know there is no easy answer.

I believe that self settling is developmental, some do it sooner than others but they all get there in the end.
I understand that some parents are completely on their knees with a baby who is a poor sleeper and feel they have to do something. I don't feel that it's something that you can teach to work in long term.

What riddles describes isn't really self settling though if she goes to her to reassure her DD, give her a comforter and then goes back to bed.
I fed mine to sleep and they learned to self settle in the night when they were ready, I did start taking them off the boob after about 10 seconds though when they got to a certain age, so this was encouraging them I suppose. A bit the same as riddles going to quickly give comforter/reassure. But it's not the same as self settling where they wake up and put themselves back to sleep with no intervention.

Some babies learn to self settle early and do this of their own accord. Some are probably encouraged by parents-so quick feed/give dummy/comforter but this may go on for months until the baby is really ready to self settle. Other babies are forced into falling asleep on their own and probably just become resigned to it as they are powerless and left with no other option.

Everyone finds their own way of doing things so if you feel that feeding her to sleep for naps or sleeping in pram is best, I would definitely carry on with that.
I really hope your operation goes well.

Littletwofeet is correct that my daughter is not fully self-settling because I intervene to make sure she has her comforter if she starts crying. Sometimes she wakes and puts herself back to sleep without making a noise, others she cries. I give her the comforter and make sure she knows I'm there if she cries because I am happy to wait until she is developmentally ready to sleep through herself, I consider myself to be lucky that she rarely wakes at night so the few times she does, I don't mind the disruption.

If she self-settles at night and you are happy to feed to sleep for naps, this would work. The reverse, however, does not (I learnt this the hard way). Sleep pressure is greatest at night so if they need assistance to sleep then, they will definitely need the same (if not more) assistance to fall asleep for naps when there is less pressure and daylight.

Completely agree that it's impossible to do much during the day when trying to get them to nap on schedule and in the cot - I cut everything that didn't fit with the routine out for quite a while to get her napping (my problem that made me use a consultant in the first place was a complete non-napping baby so I was determined to nail the naps). Your daytime situation is different so go with what works best for you.

As littlebluefeet said, it's a tough situation so go with what works best for you. Don't let anyone judge you for making the best decision for your family and circumstances.
I hope the surgery goes well for you too