4 month sleep advice please

[riddles26]

I posted a few weeks ago for advice for my (then) 3.5 month old baby who refused to nap but slept through the night without any problems. Fate very kindly replied and offered some advice for getting her to nap but I am still struggling and the predictable 4 month regression has now hit with multiple night time wakings.

She previously would self soothe when waking up at night but now wants the breast when she wakes. No problems there as I am happy to feed her until this stage passes. My problem is her getting back to sleep, sometimes she falls asleep, other times (particularly early morning), she will feed, I will put her back in her cot and she will gurgle to herself for a while and then start crying because she wants to get up. We have a co-sleeping cot so I usually lie with her until she falls asleep.

I wouldn't mind starting the day earlier if she would nap but my biggest problem is still getting her to nap. I have tried the bouncy chair and dummy, the pram (successful on some occasions but wakes as soon as we get back home if not earlier), rocking, feeding, car (absolutely hates the carseat). The only way I have managed to get her to nap is putting her in the cot and allowing her to cry until she realises she needs to sleep BUT with me lying next to her and soothing so not the true crying it out if that makes sense. When I first started trying this method, I had tears on day 1 then her falling asleep with no tears for 10 great days. The regression then hit and she now cries every time I put her down for a nap without exceptions. She does eventually go to sleep for anything between 1 and 3 sleep cycles but the tears are really upsetting me. I don't mind if she has to sleep on me for naps or if I had to bounce a chair for 2 full hours but I just want her to sleep without distress, she needs so much more than she is getting for her development.

In terms of her naps, I have tried putting her down at fixed intervals such as max 90mins awake time, following a routine and also tried following her cues but am still getting tears. I'm now starting to question myself - am I missing her tiredness cues or doing something else wrong?

I was just wondering if anyone can offer any advice on the best approach to take. I honestly don't mind how my sleep is affected at this stage as long as she gets what she needs (I'm sure my opinion on this will change after months of sleepless nights (!) but I just want to focus on getting her sorted right now)

newmother she is ebf. She has had 45mins-1hr of sensory/yoga/swimming (take your pick, we do all 3 most weeks!) followed by a 30+ minute feed during which she closes her eyes as though she will sleep then comes of breast and is wide awake!

There's loads more you could try. Plus you can keep on retrying things. You have to actively teach many babies to switch off, it's not something that comes naturally.

Not lame Newmother8668. This was aimed at me:

"When you actually parent your children as you spend an awful lot of time dishing out largely unhelpful advice.....or maybe your children are all sat with a dummy glued in their mouths"

That message was uncalled for Fate :(

Please suggest what is best for me to try to get her to unwind. A dummy is the only thing I will not revisit - I've tried them since she was 3 weeks old and each time she has hated it so much and really gets worked up when I give them to her. I definitely agree she needs to unwind somehow, if she could, she quite likely would be able to put herself to sleep as well

I'm out of advice now, but I think you will have to repeat what the suggestions and she will eventually nap. My son went through this the entire four or five weeks and then snapped out of it. I also found that a later bedtime helped compared to sleep schedules I read online.

I've tried them since she was 3 weeks old....

Like many new mums before you and many new mums to come, you just have to keep on cycling through. Trying something for a consistent amount of time, trying something else, trying something else and so on. Then going back and retrying things you've already tried.

Certain techniques work better with an older baby, some better with a younger baby. So many of the things you tried with a 2-3 month old that may not have worked then, may work with a 4-5-6 month old. Likewise techniques that may work for a 6-9 month old will be ineffective at 4 months. Just because they don't work now, doesn't mean they will never work.

Like lots who've posted on this thread having been there themself, you just kept trying things. Retrying things. There are ways you can do the same things, but differently. That's why you'll get people suggesting, try the dummy this way, do pushchair walks this way, cosleep this way, how about this way... and so on.

There reaches the end-point in suggestions only when you reach the end-point of trying. You either keep trying or you accept that you must adjust your expectations.

I don't know if adjusting your expectations is what is needed? Your baby isn't like your friends babies. That just may be the way it is.

I don't know you or your baby, so I don't know if you just have unrealistic expectations and your baby is just being a normal baby?

There is no "Magic Wand". Nothibg I say to you will "do this for a week, sleep will be suddenly start working". See my 2 year old, she was 12 months old before she could go to sleep without some hard work by me. She's the world's greatest sleeping toddler now though (imo).

But I spent most of my days getting her to sleep or her being asleep when she was 4 months old. That in no way stressed me out. It's normal. All the baby groups could wait, she benefited from them far more once over 12m anyway. At 4 months, mostly she just breastfed and slept while I watched box sets.

All I can do is suggest the ways mothers have been helping babies to be go to sleep for eons. For fear of being a broken record, some well established ways to sooth baby to sleep include:

• milk. Doesnt your baby ever get to the "milk drunk" stage?

• Sucking

• Movement (pushchair, car journey, rocking, swaying, bouncing, baby-wearing)

• Cuddling close. Lying together on a bed or being held close.

• not being moved once asleep

• fresh air

• under-stimulation (at this age), not over stimulation

• background noise

• being physically held still and calm. Swaddle does exactly this when tiny. Wrapping your arms tightly around flaying baby arms and legs when older.

• dark, subdued, non stimulating sleep environment

• some sucky babies don't like "fuss" at sleep time. Just to be left alone in the calm to feed/suck to sleep.

Thanks newmother. I have a later bedtime than all the books etc suggest as we have found that is what works best for her although it did become a little earlier recently, mainly because we noticed she was ready to go down for the night earlier. If I'm honest, I don't go by books too much because they just stress me out even more. We have a fixed bedtime and rest of the day I try follow her cues.

Fate I'm very reluctant with the dummy because that is one thing I have gone back to numerous times since she was small (and have tried multiple brands, most recently tried 2 weeks ago) and each time she has ended up more agitated.

I take your point with all the other things though as they haven't all agitated her more in the past, just not always succeeded in achieving sleep. In my eyes, I can't reach an end point of trying because she needs sleep so I have to find a way to make it work; that is one thing I'm determined to do. As for comparing with friends, we all have our own challenges as mothers and this is mine so I am not expecting her to be like any of their babies. I'm happy with the prospect of spending most days getting her to sleep as long as I don't have the screams and tears that I'm currently dealing with - that is what is really upsetting me and in turn stressing me out. I feel like this reaction isn't normal when needing to go to sleep. Whinging and grizzling is fine but not full on crying and screaming.

How long did you try a method for before deciding it isn't working and moving onto the next one?

How long is a piece of string?

It's good to have a repertoire of techniques, rather than waiting for The Magic Answer.

Maybe some techniques that work occassionally, but all the time. Some work better in the not-over-tired mornings. Some "emergency must-sleep" situations (long car journey was always my go-to for this). I do different things on days I can't be arsed and want the easy option, compared to days I am energised to focus on something.

So searching for The Answer (as a singular thing) may not be helpful. Just keep trying and retrying. Varying slightly and trying again.

There may also be benefit in accepting you have a grumpy baby. Some babies just are. There's a boy the same age as my 7 year old, he was the grumpiest toddler I have ever known in my 12 years of parenting. He was fine as a baby, better once he started school. But my God, he was never happy as a toddler. Always whining and crying. His mum tired everything. In the end she just had to accept sitting in toddler groups (for her own sanity, not her child's benefit) with a crying/whinging/clingy not in her knee. Pretty much 24/7. Not a parenting fail in any way, I don't think any way. He was just like that.

crying/whinging/clingy not boy*

(Autocorrect and fat fingers on my phone)

Could your husband take a few days off work to work on sleep? Or your parents/in laws stay with you for a few days? We had very similar problems to you, and my husband had a few days off work (4 or 5) and he did all the naps for that time. I think I had got myself so worked up, I was probably winding her up more! He really helped her getting in a better pattern, which I was able to pick up afterwards. Also, I think more than anything having a break put me in a better frame of mind to work on it again. He loved getting some quality time with her to!

I know you said your parents/in laws had helped with sleep occasionally but I think there is a big difference between them doing it once or doing it for a few days to get you both out of the negative cycle of winding each other up at nap time.

Obviously if she is EBF you would still need to be around to feed as required, unless she will take a bottle of EBM? I found physically removing myself from the house for a bit each day was better for helping me to relax, rather than sitting there wandering if she was going to sleep for him, so helped me to reset more.

Her naps are far from perfect now, and she does still cry from time to time but they are better. She still goes to sleep much better for him though!

Funny you say that Octopus, I've just spent a couple of days with my parents this weekend and they have just seen truly how much she cries and how painful it is to hear it (for them as well as for me). They've come to the same conclusion that they would like to spend a bit of time with us to help out because we are in that cycle and as angelik said earlier, it has become a battleground between her and me. Husband has a week off in a couple of weeks and we were thinking of going away but I think we will follow your suggestion instead so I can get a break from it all as I am really struggling. Since I started this thread, I have had a full good day and otherwise just positive outcomes on the odd nap here or there. She has been awake for 7 hours and counting today, both me, husband and parents have tired to put her to sleep more times than I can count and she has screamed and cried each time without exception

Fate I agree that there isn't a magic wand but as I've kept saying it's the tears and screams I can't handle - the very ones you said at the start of the thread should never happen. Aside from nap time, she is not the slightest bit a grumpy baby - happy, playful and plays with everybody (not just me). We retried the bouncy chair this morning - she cried for more than 30 minutes without stopping despite either my husband or I being there and soothing her. I had to get her out because I couldn't deal with hearing or seeing her tears

It does sound incredibly stressful for you. I hope your parents/husband can help you crack it. My husband still does the majority of weekend naps, because I find having a regular break from trying to get her to sleep helps us avoid getting back to that battleground state you talk about (which we definitely have been in, and do still sometimes get in when we have a bad week).

But if she is happy and playful when you are not trying to get her to sleep is it possible she doesn't need as much sleep as average? So you are trying to get her to nap when she isn't tired? Our little girl is definitely neither happy or playful when she isn't napping well!

She's four months old. This is what babies do. I think you're reading wayyyyyy too much into all this and forcing her to nap hook or by crook. You need to majorly relax. Whatever works now won't work in two months and it will go on like this for several months.
One of my sons simply never slept more than 20 mins during the day til he was 11 months old when he started having an afternoon nap.
I threw my "parenting" books away and just went with it. He napped on me sometimes, occasionally in the buggy, sometimes in my arms. Other times not at all. I also don't think your baby should be crying this much. It's not necessary. Just go with their pattern, take as many walks as you can in the hope of a nap taking place, and don't stress.

I think she does need less sleep than average. My problem is she refuses to nap at all and then the lovely playful, happy mood disappears and is replaced by a cranky and grumpy baby. The few days she has napped well (my definition of well is more than 2 hours of napping over the entire day), I have a happy and playful baby all day.

I am lost with regards to when to get her to nap - I have tried everything from following her cues to following a fixed strict routine and everything in between (following each one for at least a week, if not 2).

Thanks oly, I try so hard to avoid the grumpy mood later on but the majority on here have said not to stress so I'm going to take that advice and just not try when it's only me and her at home. Like octopus said, I will get my husband and parents involved more instead and hopefully they will be able to establish something without it being so emotionally charged between me and her

I think you can drive yourself crazy and you will enjoy your baby much more if you can try to relax. Some babies just don't need much daytime sleep - this will not affect her development at all. I know how you feel. My son was torture and then at 11 months started taking a 1.5-2 hour nap daily. I couldn't believe it. He never napped in his cot before then. Flat refused. I wish I had stressed less and put my feet up more with a cup of tea and a box set. It does all pass so quickly I promise. Night-time sleep is the main thing to try and establish. But even that comes and goes due to teething etc. None of my 3 kids have reliably slept through every night til they were 2! You feel like you're going mad at times but somehow you all get there in the end. And you forget about this phase!

I just came back to update in case anyone else ends up in the same situation as this thread taught me its much more common than I initially thought. I ended up sleep training my one just after she turned 5 months old. I started off trying to do it myself (with reasonable success) but then felt it was unravelling so I used a sleep consultant via Skype.

Nothing she told me was completely new - I had either read it on here or in a book before but the way she put it together to devise a routine for my baby and documenting it all for 2 weeks with follow ups from her made a big difference. The regular follow ups make you follow through when you want to give up. Each time something did not go to plan, she was able to explain how/why and the knock on effects. The difference has been incredible - she may not sleep as much as textbooks but she naps regularly without protest and wakes once/twice at night but it is for her feed then straight back to sleep. She is a happy, delightful baby almost all of the time. We get through most days without any tears at all because she is getting the rest she needs and I am enjoying my days with her so so much - I really wish I had done this earlier.

A massive advantage of using the consultant is that I can just put her down in her crib, say goodnight and she will go to sleep herself when it is nap or night time - no rocking, shushing, patting or anything else required. I know we will still have plenty of bumps with the inevitable illness, teething and future regressions but I feel I have the confidence to deal with it and settle her back into a routine as the situation improves.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to help me, I really appreciate it