4 month sleep advice please

[riddles26]

I posted a few weeks ago for advice for my (then) 3.5 month old baby who refused to nap but slept through the night without any problems. Fate very kindly replied and offered some advice for getting her to nap but I am still struggling and the predictable 4 month regression has now hit with multiple night time wakings.

She previously would self soothe when waking up at night but now wants the breast when she wakes. No problems there as I am happy to feed her until this stage passes. My problem is her getting back to sleep, sometimes she falls asleep, other times (particularly early morning), she will feed, I will put her back in her cot and she will gurgle to herself for a while and then start crying because she wants to get up. We have a co-sleeping cot so I usually lie with her until she falls asleep.

I wouldn't mind starting the day earlier if she would nap but my biggest problem is still getting her to nap. I have tried the bouncy chair and dummy, the pram (successful on some occasions but wakes as soon as we get back home if not earlier), rocking, feeding, car (absolutely hates the carseat). The only way I have managed to get her to nap is putting her in the cot and allowing her to cry until she realises she needs to sleep BUT with me lying next to her and soothing so not the true crying it out if that makes sense. When I first started trying this method, I had tears on day 1 then her falling asleep with no tears for 10 great days. The regression then hit and she now cries every time I put her down for a nap without exceptions. She does eventually go to sleep for anything between 1 and 3 sleep cycles but the tears are really upsetting me. I don't mind if she has to sleep on me for naps or if I had to bounce a chair for 2 full hours but I just want her to sleep without distress, she needs so much more than she is getting for her development.

In terms of her naps, I have tried putting her down at fixed intervals such as max 90mins awake time, following a routine and also tried following her cues but am still getting tears. I'm now starting to question myself - am I missing her tiredness cues or doing something else wrong?

I was just wondering if anyone can offer any advice on the best approach to take. I honestly don't mind how my sleep is affected at this stage as long as she gets what she needs (I'm sure my opinion on this will change after months of sleepless nights (!) but I just want to focus on getting her sorted right now)

[einalem1984]

I really feel for you! I'll going through pretty much the exact same thing with my 15 week old girl- exhausting isn't it?!
I too have tried everything but she seems to keep changing the rules! Definitely noticed she doesn't sleep as well at night if she hasn't slept well in the day. Also has colic in an afternoon which adds to the fun of it all!!
I don't have any answers for you just wanted you to know that other mummies such as myself are going through this too. All babies cry but it's not helpful for people to be saying they shouldn't cry! X

[SchnitzelVonCrumb]

Fate - none of what you are saying is helpful.

Have you ever had a baby that was a screamer. I too was pretty smug about my parenting until a had a child that just screamed and screamed and screamed. We BF on demand, held, co-slept everything! Numerous tests and still no diagnosis. I am also a very very chill person so I was no putting any stress on him.

Have some compassion ffs

[Ebbenmeowgi]

Actually Fate's advice on this forum is usually spot on and insightful. She's just straight to the point and not a hand ghost iyswim

[Ebbenmeowgi]

Shit, holder not ghost! Though I'm pretty sure she's not a ghost

[riddles26]

Thank you so much Angelik and Enilalem, its so reassuring to know others have been through the same and come out of it. Enilalem I hope your little one comes out the other end very soon as well.

I agree Ebben that Fate usually is very helpful and you will notice in my OP that I said just that but I found her first post in this thread insulting as Schnitzel mentioned. I have no pleasure or enjoyment out of hearing my baby cry and in my OP I did state that it was really distressing me but I had tried everything else I could possibly think of and was using it as an absolutely desperate last resort. I read lots and lots of Fates posts on this forum before I started a thread and she universally advises a bouncy chair and dummy for naps, it appears from responses that this together with relentless bouncing does work for a fair few others too but unfortunately not mine.

[FATEdestiny]

SchnitzelVonCrumb - you read as though "screamers" are born like that. Therein is my disagreement. I don't hide behind any unhelpful assumption that screaming children can be happy, content, non-screamers.

Have you ever had a baby that was a screamer

Yes. With DC1 I have (on many, many occ occassions) talked of the masses of mistakes I made parenting her through the first year. As a result she was an unhappy screamer who I ended up doing CIO with into her second year.

You know the net result of that? I decided not to pretend "she's just a screamer". I decided to acknowledge parenting mistakes I made. Not hide behind them. And how never to make them again.

As a direct result of acknowledging there are ways that I parented that were very wrong me. So I did not repeat my mistakes with my next 3 children.

I made different mistakes with DC2, DC3 and DC4. But I don't sit around and pretend these problems were not down to me. They all are.

Im not a hand-holder, as Ebbenmeowgi said (thank you ). I have compassion, but I show that through practical suggestions and realistic advice on expectations.

I would wholly disagree that practical suggestions and realistic advice is unhelpful. You do the hand holding compassion SchnitzelVonCrumb. That does it mean there is not also a place for to the point suggestions of actual things posters could do differently.

[FATEdestiny]

Correction:

unhelpful assumption that screaming children cannot be happy, content, non-screamers

[SchnitzelVonCrumb]

I've never been on this board before I am only going by what I see on this thread.

Which is: give baby a dummy (OP says baby refuses dummy) bounce baby (OP says baby dislikes this) and that the baby must be stressed while being held because OP is stressed.

[SchnitzelVonCrumb]

Curious to know what were your parenting mistakes.

[FATEdestiny]

I have no pleasure or enjoyment out of hearing my baby cry and in my OP I did state that it was really distressing me but I had tried everything else I could possibly think of and was using it as an absolutely desperate last resort

In an ideal world no one would want their child to be upset at all, surely?

Your OP reads like you are resigned to the fact that you have no other option but to leave her to cry. The inference that you will just have to put up with this way of crying out to get to sleep, even though it's not ideal.

What I was (and will continue to be) harsh about is the assumption you are carrying that because your baby has cried to sleep no matter what you have tried, that this is therefore The Answer - let her cry to sleep.

Nothing works, you think. So any suggestion you are given will be responded with - tried that, that won't work, done that, won't work... until the natural conclusion I assume you are hoping for... just put her down and let her cry then, you are doing the right thing

You won't get that from me. You'll just get more and more suggestions and ideas. Because leaving a young baby to cry, you there or not, cannot ever be The Answer in my view. It can in an older baby. Not in a young baby who has no possibility of stopping their own upset themself.

So I'll just keep giving more suggestions and things to try. Or I'll read the tread quietly without posting, if it becomes obvious that what you are looking for are posters who said "I let my 4 month old cry to sleep and it was ok", because you wont get that from me.

[FATEdestiny]

I digress. Back to the issue:

Fate she is affectionate and happy for a bit then she fidgets and wants to be put down so she can play. Or if she is in a clingy mood, she wants me to hold her and walk around

It sounds like you're missing tired signs.

Wanting to be put down to play when happy, that's great. If baby is happy rolling around on the floor then baby won't be tired at that point.

I would suggest that anything other than this = tired and it's sleep time.

So this clingy mood you mention. Baby wants to be held and you are reading the signs as her waking to look at things and generally be entertained.

I'd hazard a guess that when this happens, baby is very tired and needs to sleep. It's often the case that a baby who is over tired seems "wide eyes and wired" - far from a sleepy look.

As far as tired signs go:

• happy to play on floor = happy/awake
  
• clingy, wants your attention. But still happy to play on floor with attention = now tired. I'd go straight for a sleep at this point.
  
• clingy, crying unless being held = over tired and/or hungry
  
• not happy unless hard-work, focused and ever changing stimulation = very over tired and/or hungry. You can distract from tired/hunger briefly, but for very little time.
  
• not happy no matter what you do. Unhappy being held, unhappy put down. Crying no matter what - chronic exhaustion that will be difficult and require really focused time and attention to get through.
  

There's no great problem getting to chronic exhaustion. There will be certain days babies get to all of those phases of tiredness. You just acknowledge where you are and work harder on sleep (sleep will be easier the less tired a young baby is).

The big problems would be babies who are on the overtired - exhausted end of the scale most of the time. Getting over tired on occassion is no biggy. Getting into a cycle of continuous exhaustion is really quite unhealthy for baby.

It is get-out-able though. It's not easy once in the OT cycle. But you don't need to design yourself to it always being like this.

[Notlostjustexploring]

riddle I'm living this at the moment with my 4month old son so you have my utmost sympathy. He's just too damn interested in the world around him to want to go to sleep or for cuddles, although pram pushing still works for us to get him to sleep. He also cries whenever we are about to put him to sleep but I think he is just protesting as he does fall asleep quickly once out and about. So yes babies shouldn't cry, but if they are crying precisely because they don't want to sleep, you're between a rock and a hard place.

Random things that work/have worked:
After he has fallen asleep in the pram, I wheel him straight to the back garden where he stays asleep.
Piling loads of blankets on him when he's on a bouncer so he's cosy while bouncing
Cuddling him while standing and swaying slightly and he is in an upright position with a nice noisy environment. It means he can still see what is going on and drops off despite himself.
Feeding to sleep but curled up on the bed so it looks like I'm asleep.
Both my mum and Mil can get him to go out like a light, literally just holding him

Good luck.

[Aliveinwanderland]

She sounds just like my DS who is also 4 months. He fights naps in the afternoon time but will have them in the morning. If I try to hold or cuddle him he flies about, hitting and crying. He sleeps in his pushchair if I keep walking fast.

I can usually get him to sleep by lying next to him and letting him grumble annoy. Not full on crying but plenty of cross grumbling with white noise on while I keep sticking his dummy back in.

[LapinR0se]

I actually think fate that you were traumatised by your CIO experience with your first child and now you are obsessed with making sure other babies don't cry. Maybe this is to assuage your own feelings of guilt?
You are very very active on the sleep boards and your advice is always appreciated. However it is not sensible to suggest that avoiding crying is the most important thing.

[riddles26]

Thanks Fate that was really useful. I totally agree with you that I am missing something - she is a happy healthy baby with no reflux or colic so it isn't normal for her to cry herself to sleep every single nap time. I accept it will happen on occasions but I would expect her to go to sleep without tears most times, even more so when considering she never cries at bedtime in the evening and is able to self soothe during the night (regression aside). I have no desire for her to put herself to sleep for naps, if she needs me to do so that is fine, if she needs me to sleep on that is also fine - she is still little and imo, maternity leave is there for me to do these things with her right now.
The clingy and crying mood is without a doubt, being overtired and I have been avoiding getting to that stage by putting her to sleep before it but I have had the tears in doing so which is why I posted. Walking around with her when she is like that is what I used to do but she hasn't got to that stage in the past 2 weeks because I have made her sleep. Perhaps I need to try even earlier than I am - I did do this previously (about a month ago) without success but maybe I should go back to it again now.
How did you used to deal with this when out and about though? How would you get your children to sleep when not in their usual environment, especially when so alert and inquisitive?

Thanks for the suggestions notlost. I will revisit the bouncer with blankets too as I would absolutely love for her to sleep in it. It would make nap times so much easier if she would sleep in it downstairs, especially when going to other peoples houses etc (which I like to do during the day but have stopped to try resolve this sleep issue). I just can't get any success with the cuddling, really wish I could as that would be the easiest thing, but she just keeps wanting to look around then tries to wriggle out of my arms.
I have had my mum and MIL try and both had success at night time but just as many struggles during the day because she is just so alert!

Thanks Alive. Ive been doing the same in lying next to her but been having tears in getting her asleep so want to get her to the same stage as your one - I can handle whinging and accept that as normal but not the full on crying she does.

[Letrix123]

With my first, as soon as she was born she was awake, she was always a nightmare to get to sleep, it would literally take hours to get her to sleep and then she would only nap for 30 mins. I'd find a system that would work for a few days, and then she'd figure out what was going on and I'd be back to square one. It's horrendous. At one stage the only thing that would work was dancing around the living room to Donna summers "I feel love" and then I'd just have to sit on the sofa with her still in the sling with it on repeat til she woke up.
And I remember saying to my mum, "they say, babies at this age should be going to sleep like this, and sleep for this long...blah blah blah" and she said " who are "they" and how do they know so much about your child? "
It really stuck with me. Then I realised the things that I was getting really stressed about was the things that I felt my baby should be conforming to. When I accepted that I just had a baby who didn't want to go to sleep I felt a lot better. I also I had to accept that I would have to work through a variety of increasing random ways to get her to sleep. It gets easier, it's just a bit brutal at the time. But the worse thing is the stress we put on ourselves. That's the most exhausting part of all. And too be honest, I kind of miss dancing around with a baby to Donna summer, dire straights, some 90's trance music, or you are my sunshine...... telling myself that my child is obviously incredibly perceptive and will somehow use that power to one day save the world.... looking after little babies is a massive challenge, but they are beautiful and very snugly

[FATEdestiny]

I would do the same thing again, in the same situation. I wouldn't say traumatised is the right word. Guilty, certainly. Guilty that I got into the situation of having to do CIO and deliberately making sure I didnt get into that position again.

As for helping others. I have the time. I have a ton of experience (mine and other peoples) to draw on. So why not?

[FATEdestiny]

Massive crossed post there. My last post was in response to LapinR0se. I'm at Parent & Toddler group so the reply took me ages to write!

How did you used to deal with this when out and about though? How would you get your children to sleep when not in their usual environment, especially when so alert and inquisitive?

Well, I'm not a great example of that with my youngest. Basically I worked out out trips out around naptime, wherever possible. So if I knew we needed to go to the shop, if get myself ready while she was asleep and as soon as she woke and was fed, would rush out, ger stuff done and be home shsin for naptime.

Wherever possible that is. There will be times when you just manage, get through it even when you know the situation is not ideal for baby.

Have you got other children or commitments you need to work around? I would just go that route if you can.

But I know it's not going to be possible if you have, for example, baby and toddler at home during the daytime. Getting baby used to pushchair and/or carseat naps help if needed.

I would still be using a swaddle at 4 months. So a swaddle, lie flat pram, hood and dummy all come together to calm and sooth a little one.

[riddles26]

Letrix my one has been like this from early on too although as a newborn she alternated between staying awake all the time for a week or 2 then wanting to sleep all day and night for a week or so to catch up from it. The main reason I am persisting and trying to find a way to get her to sleep is because the difference in her mood and personality is so obvious when she has napped during the day and to me that is a clear indicator she does need the sleep. Totally agree about the beautiful and snuggly - I look at her all the time, just amazed that we have managed to create someone so wonderful!

No other children Fate and just a couple of weekly commitments so I can spend the best part of a couple of weeks at home trying to get her sleep sorted but I do try get out during the day and will of course work around her timings but if I am out for slightly longer, would like for her to be able to go to sleep on the move. Pram works well when we are walking outside (I have a lie flat seat and a cocoon which works a bit like a swaddle but allows her arms by her face which is how she sleeps) but getting her to sleep in that whilst stationary is another thing all together - something I will try to tackle once I have achieved her napping in the house i think! I am really trying to build sleep associations so that when she hears white noise she realises it is time to sleep in the hope that she will be able to do that on the move but my first step is getting her to give in to the tiredness and sleep!

[FATEdestiny]

I will try to tackle once I have achieved her napping in the house i think!

Once you've got her into a cycle of healthy sleeping, then everything becomes easier.

Also, once a normal day in your life with baby involves her getting enough sleep, it's not a problem if you have a day here and there when sleep isn't very good. She'll be more robust and more able to cope with the odd nap here and there that is later and/or shorter than normal.

[SolomanDaisy]

Just as an alternative to look at, my four month-old has been a great sleeper, but the last week she has been very disturbed, including crying at situations which would normally make her sleep (I'm currently standing up with her sleeping in the sling). This morning her first tooth is through! I thought it was too early, but apparently not. It might be worth having a feel of her gums.

[riddles26]

I totally agree Fate, I've just not managed to achieve that normal day of healthy sleeping yet! Fingers crossed it will come soon.

Soloman she has itchy gums but the teeth aren't ready to come quite yet as the gums haven't hardened enough (husband's brother is a dentist and checked that out for us!) Knowing my luck, they will come out just as I come to some sort of resolution from this sleep issue!

[riddles26]

Fate I've tried following your advice but am really struggling today (after having a great afternoon yesterday). So from yesterday its been as follows:

1pm: starting to want attention when playing. Put to sleep by lying down with her in co-sleeper and lullaby on. Slept for 2 hours
5pm: as above, showing signs of tiredness. Put to sleep as above and slept for 1hr.
7.30pm: started bedtime routine (massage, bath, feed, sleep). Fell asleep around 9pm
Woke up for feeds during night but put self back to sleep after feeding
7.15am: woke up (would usually ignore her until goes back to sleep). Changed nappy and played with her on bed instead like Eleanor suggested.
8.15am: Starting to get grizzly, put to sleep. Woke up after 30mins
10.00am: Started to get grizzly, tried to put to sleep but she cried. Feeding didn't help so decided to get up with her and try again in a bit. Tried again twice more before she finally went to sleep at 11.15 but woke up after just 20 minutes.
Grizzly almost immediately after waking because she hasn't slept enough but would not go to sleep without tears so kept trying then stopping when she cried. Finally got her to go to sleep (tear free) at 1.30pm but woke up within half hour again.

What does it look like I am doing wrong? Yesterday it worked perfectly and I didn't even get whinging, I honestly thought I may have found an answer but I feel like I've gone back to the beginning today :(

Is there anything you can suggest?

[Aliveinwanderland]

Some days babies are whingy, it can be tiredness, teeth hurting, tummy ache, under the weather, any number of things. It sounds like you are doing the right things, keep going. Some days it will work, other days it won't.

My DS is having a rotten day today. He is grumbling no matter what I do and has had a nap, but is still grumpy. He is doing some huge man trumps so think he has a bit of tummy ache. I'm about to take him for a walk for an hour to blow some cobwebs off us both- I'm shattered today and just want to sleep!

[FATEdestiny]

You don't mention when feeds were, which could be a lot to do with it, but I would suggest that 8.45-10am may have been too long awake. Infact she didn't sleep at 10, so by 11.15 she had been awake for 2h30m.

Compare to yesterday afternoon. 2h awake time (3-5pm) followed a two hour nap. Today 2.5h awake time (8.45-11.15) followed a 30min nap. Hence baby was over tired, so harder to get to sleep and more disturbed sleep whilst asleep.

You seemed to then (11.35) go straight into getting back to sleep, without any awake time? The aim is not to extend naps, that's unlikely to happen. The aim is to make naps frequent. So I would have done a feed and nappy check, making maybe 30m awake time, and back to sleep.

Remember feeds may want to be as frequent as naps. I wouldn't go longer than 2h between feeds at this age. More frequent if needed.

So following the wake at 8.45, I'd have started getting back to sleep (and have given a feed) by 9.30 so that baby was asleep by 9.45-10, rather than starting getting her to sleep at 10am

Yesterday it worked perfectly and I didn't even get whinging, I honestly thought I may have found an answer but I feel like I've gone back to the beginning today

Every day is not going to be the same.

Yesterday you had longer naps. So awake time could be longer.

Today you had shorter naps. Rather than using that to inform your decision that awake time needed to limited and shorter, you kept longer awake time.

Map length dictates awake time. Not the other way around. You won't get longer naps by keeping baby awake more. In fact you'll probably get even shorter naps and an over tired baby.