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Can I please have your honest opinions on CC? HV is recomending I am not sure.

374 replies

eenybeeny · 02/03/2007 12:47

My HV is recomending CC for my 6 month old.

Our problems with his sleep are these:

  1. He only naps in his pram. He screams and screams when I try to get him to nap in his cot during the day.
  1. He wakes up to 6 times a night for one thing or another.
  1. He wakes anywhere from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. and is ready for the day.

Please give me any advice you have and let me know... is CC cruel? I really dont know. Normally, the thing is, when he cries I want to rush to him to help him. I dont know if I can leave him to cry. Please help!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
DaddyJ · 08/03/2007 22:40

No delay perceived, thank you for the recommendation, itsmemummy.
I have just read the introduction and it does seem a fascinating book with insights that encompass sleep but go well beyond it - I would like to know more.
Would you mind if I replied on a fresh thread, in the Philosophy section maybe?

kiskidee · 08/03/2007 22:53

regarding the paper on www.us.oup.com/us/pdf/spirito/Mindell.pdf link:

it is not a sleep lab case study. it is parents taking their kids home sleep training them. it is a compilation of a variety of studies under a variety of settings, eras from the 80's onwards.

Sleep lab case studies will be fascinating because such a study would focus on the responses of the child while being sleep trained.

some parts of it was shocking like this: 'If the child came out of the bedroom, parents were "to administer one swat and without talking, return their child to bed."? effing hell, is that one of methodologies advocated by scientists for treating a 'problem'. No wonder we've got problems.

and this one was laughable: Extinction procedures can be quite stressful for parents. yes..... and..... what about the poor kid.

so they talk about graduated extinction (which is ferber's method?) which should be less stressful. On who?

i never said cc in any of it forms did not work in stopping night wakings. i agree, it works. it works on the same principles as Pavlov's dogs experiments work. the brain of a baby has less frontal lobe than adults do. more like a dog. but i would hope that adults are beyond training children like i would train a puppy.

i wonder though, why the normal waking patterns of young children in this piece of research is treated as a problem to be fixed.

children wake up because that is what they do. not because it is a disorder.

is it cc safe though. it is done to achieve an infant to sleep 'through the night'. In quotes because there are a lot of definitions of that term.

what results is that infants go into abnormally deep sleep troughs. if sleep apnea occurs during the night, it raises the possibility that the child may not have the natural brain development yet to wake himself up. it is shown that co-sleeping mothers - in sleep labs - may rouse their infants out of episodes of apnea. Now, how does a woman do that while she is asleep? another question yet not fully answered.

in the US 3/4ths of sids deaths occur while infants are sleeping alone in cots. this is despite the many manufacturing guidelines for cots and parental guidelines regarding bedding and risks of overheating.

the majority of co-sleeping deaths occur when several risk factors come together. alcohol, drugs, overtiredness and inappropriate sleep locations, etc are involved.

why is it then that cot-sleeping is considered the gold-standard?

why is it that in Japan, SIDS is almost non-existent when the Japanese are more prone to apnea than Caucasians are?

I know you hate the words 'may' and the like. that was funny reading you dispute material based on words like may. did you ever study syllogisms in uni? That is why people use words like 'may'.

your dislike of the words may and could, etc. seems to imply that you think that any of the research we are discussing are conclusive and should be set in stone otherwise not worth considering.

malaleche · 08/03/2007 22:57

Am a bit confused - does anyone persevere with cc after it hasn't worked within 20-30 or so minutes, going in at intervals within that time, and letting their babies 'fall asleep through sheer exhaustion' ?- that wasn't my experience at all. Was I just 'lucky'?
Does Ferber seriously expect parents to wait up to 45 minutes before going in to a crying child(this would be on day 7, if you haven't cracked it by then)? I mean, in my experience it doesnt take that long. It took both my dd's 2 or 3 nights and a maximum of 4 minutes between visits with a maximum total time of 25 minutes from putting baby in cot to baby falling asleep. I really can't believe it would take much longer than this. Maybe it does if the baby is older than 3 - 6 months? And I dont understand why cc should be less damaging to a one yr old than a 6 mo. Too much mumsnet recently, getting tired and incoherent, have to go to bed...

malaleche · 08/03/2007 23:01

Oh, dadyJ i wasnt chiding you just thought that people tumbling on this thread and newish to the subjet seemed surprised at the tone - thought they might not relie what stge of the dicussion wee at - it could lok strnge if you thought w'd just started the dicusion, bed, typing is becoming codlike...

melpomene · 08/03/2007 23:15

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but my vote would be don't do it, especially at only 6 months old.

When dd1 was 6 months old my HV swore to me that "CC always works." We tried it, and it was the worst parenting mistake I have ever made. DD1 cried for hours on end, night after night, for about 2 weeks and her sleep didn't get better at all.

We finally came to our senses and went back to a more relaxed approach, which included co sleeping some of the time. We also tried some tips from the 'No Cry Sleep Solution'.

DD1 is now 3 and is a good sleeper. But she often lacks confidence and I sometimes wonder if that is the result of the CC nightmare.

kiskidee · 08/03/2007 23:32

malaleche: from your post at 22:57:55, i'd you haven't been around mn long enough.

DaddyJ · 08/03/2007 23:33

itsmemummy, I have set up a new thread under Philosophy.
We can of course start with CC but I hope we get to post about
the implications of this new research for how we bring up our
children and live our lifes.

malaleche, you are a born peacemaker your posts always have
a soothing effect on me, even in the heat of the debate!

kiskidee, I respect your opinions and if it had not been for your
views I probably would have never researched CC thoroughly enough
to come across the Eckerberg and the France papers. As far as Science
is concerned they prove that CC does not do any damage.

However, itsmemummy is proposing that there might be another angle.

DaddyJ · 08/03/2007 23:33

itsmemummy, I have set up a new thread under Philosophy.
We can of course start with CC but I hope we get to post about
the implications of this new research for how we bring up our
children and live our lifes.

malaleche, you are a born peacemaker your posts always have
a soothing effect on me, even in the heat of the debate!

kiskidee, I respect your opinions and if it had not been for your
views I probably would have never researched CC thoroughly enough
to come across the Eckerberg and the France papers. As far as Science
is concerned they prove that CC does not do any damage.

However, itsmemummy is proposing that there might be another angle.

bloss · 09/03/2007 01:51

Message withdrawn

bloss · 09/03/2007 01:53

Message withdrawn

Soapbox · 09/03/2007 01:58

I don't agree with your analysis Bloss, but it is a good post

Beachcomber · 09/03/2007 08:40

Hello everyone.
I have been reading this thread with interest as I had a pretty similar experience to Bloss. My DD2 woke frequently as a newborn for feeds/comfort (as they do) then developed good sleep (waking three times a night) and then around 4 months began waking every 45 mins to an hour.
We were cosleeping already so that wasn't a solution for us, walking her sometimes helped and soothed her and sometimes distressed her terribly.
I didn't feel that there was much we could do until she was a bit older so we put up with the situation, we were all exhausted and grumpy. I also have a 3yo to look after and between general tiredness and the baby crying loudly, things weren't great for her either. Daytime sleep was very difficult for my baby too.

So once the time 'felt' right we explained to DD2 what was going on and encouraged her to settle herself to sleep. She did cry, but no more (and often less) than she had with us trying to comfort her. After 3 nights things were much improved and she stopped waking every hour (often still wakes 3 times and she is 9 months old). I was not trying to get her to sleep through the night because I couldn't be bothered to get up to her, I was trying to be a good parent and find a solution for my baby who was clearly distressed.

I think that a lot of parents who have done some form of cc with their babies have done so because nothing else was working and their baby was distressed. To be either 'pro' or 'anti' cc doesn't make sense to me. I think, like with most parenting, what is right for one child is not always right for another.
To suggest that cc is always harmful and damaging to the bond between mother and child , strikes me as simplistic and rather utopic (and rather offensive towards other parents).

To those who think that cc should never be used in any form and under any circumstances what would you have suggested I do with my baby?
I breastfeed on demand, coslept, use slings, cloth nappies, etc and have lentil weaving tendancies and yet used a (watered down) version of cc with my child. I didn't enjoy doing it, but then I didn't enjoy walking up and down for hours at night with a screaming distressed baby in my arms either (if I tried to breastfeed her to sleep she would get terrible wind and become even more distressed). I sometimes regret not having done something earlier as I think it would have saved my child a great deal of distress and nights of crying.

So what would you have done??
Answers on a postcard....

3sEnough · 09/03/2007 08:54

Honestly - it worked. 3 early evening crying sessions were worth it to see mum, dad, siblings and babies happy in their own room, own bed waving goodnight to me and blowing me a kiss at 8 months old prior to sleeping for 12 hours every night - preferable to mum and dads' accident prone driving, foul tempered zombies who were rotten to their children and each other through sheer exhaustion. IMHO it's a no brainer (puts on hard hat and flack jacket and waits)

zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 09:06

it always seems apparent in these debates that people are talking about a spectrum of behaviour there is a world of difference between the extremes and there is no doubting that some people are extreme

3 months is extreme as an age to do this imo

and so are the extended periods over which people are trying to do it

I recommend some of the techniques which are advised for adults who suffer insomnia to parents who feel sleep deprived. Tackle your own attitude to night waking and you will find that you can cope much better with repeated night waking...a lot of the psychological impact on daily life of feeling you are missing sleep can be handled with better approaches. ie Train yourself to be less anxious and stressed and your relaxed approach will benefit your family and may even lead to a more relaxed baby who will sleep better.

DaddyJ · 09/03/2007 09:29

This thread has got so long it's worth remembering why things kicked off in the first place:

Because it was strongly alleged that any kind of crying is bad and no one should even consider CC.

There is a great deal of empirical evidence to disprove that, including powerful and moving posts by
bloss and beachcomber on this thread and so many others on the CC Support Thread .

You challenged us to prove CC that is not harmful and we showed you scientific studies that prove Controlled Crying
does not do any harm.
The most conclusive is Berndt Eckerberg's study from 2004 which, if you are concerned about CC
but would like to know more, is genuinely well worth investing in.

It is entirely legitimate to disagree. All the personal opinions against CC are perfectly
valid and I would strongly defend anyone's right to their own beliefs.

But bullying people into feeling guilty or scaring them into not considering the option at all
based on personal beliefs only - that cannot be right.

zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 09:35

measuring psychological damage is very difficult

similar debates rage over discipline eg smacking and the naughty step, boarding school, child care etc

do you mean empirical or anecdotal context suggests the latter

most of the support through mn is anecdotal and none the worse for that

kiskidee · 09/03/2007 09:37

"But bullying people into feeling guilty or scaring them into not considering the option at all
based on personal beliefs only - that cannot be right. "

good summation, especially since it is coming from you.

i would be happy if everything i typed was ignored, and the links i posted be investigated fully and yours too, of course.

i only want parents to stop thinking that cc is a convenient, fix it all option when a lot of studies point to it being more of a last resort one.

malaleche · 09/03/2007 09:44

Melpomene: if it doesnt work after about an hour,(not leaving them for an hour) 2 or 3 nights running leave it for a couple of weeks and try again - this is one of my recommendations about doing cc - if it doesnt work and youve given it a good shot wait, and in the meantime sort other things which could be compounding the problem - dummy use, naps etc I cant help wondering if those who have had such bad experiences with cc have actually done it 'right'. I know it's not as simple as that but...I wouldnt blame your dds lack of confidence solely on cc, it could be absolutely anything causing that, or a whole variety of things.

Bloss, 3senough and beachcomber, agree with your posts. Glad people more eloquent than i are putting it across so well.

er, zippi . i didnt FEEl i was missing sleep, i WAS missing sleep. No amount of mind over matter was going to alter that.

Kiskidee - No, i havent been around mn long, only about 2 months or less - but what did you mean?

All and everyone - have just put dd2, nearly 6mo, down for morning nap, she smiled as i wrapped her in her blanket put her in her cot and kissed her, contnued to smile as i left the room, did not cry at all and was asleep when i went back 2 mins later. She spent half the night in our bed as she had a snotty blocked nose and couldn't get back to sleep when she woke last night. Best of both worlds.....

zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 09:48

malaleche

yes you do miss sleep but it is your psychological reaction to it which has the detrimental effect on your day as a consequence

you said earlier:

"To the people who think some of the posters on this thread are being a bit heavy on the non-ccer's - this argument has being going on for some time and over several threads and patience in both camps is wearing a little thin...I would say this thread is the eye of the cc storm."

this argument has been going on for at least 25 years lol and a good few on mn too!

malaleche · 09/03/2007 09:52

DaddyJ - thanks for the peacemaker comment, actually im just a bit pathetic and scared of people shouting at me
I dont agree that the studies prove without a doubt that c is harmless. I dont think anything we well-meaningly expose or submit our kids to is entirely harmless - there are too many variants to be black and white about it. I hope cc is not harmfull, i feel that using it has had a beneficial effect on my dds and whole family.
Have to go, dp is threatening to send me to a pyschologist for additin to mn!

malaleche · 09/03/2007 09:56

(That was 'cc' and 'addiction')
zippi are you saying tiredness has NO physical effect on the body????
DP getting angry with me hogging laptop, says hes going to go on the site and tell everyone to f off, [runs away]

jetjets · 09/03/2007 09:56

Message withdrawn

zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 09:59

anxiety about lack of sleep is disproportionate to the actual physical and mental debilitation

so if you approach lack of sleep in a positive way then you can minimise its efects and indeed it may mean that your baby/childre/yourself sleep better

it is about taking control back and don't doubt the powerful pyschological impact of being in control for improved well being

I think this is also why people like cc..because they feel they are in control of the situation

Beachcomber · 09/03/2007 10:15

Zippitippitoes, I'm quite taken aback by this comment;

'Tackle your own attitude to night waking and you will find that you can cope much better with repeated night waking...a lot of the psychological impact on daily life of feeling you are missing sleep can be handled with better approaches. ie Train yourself to be less anxious and stressed and your relaxed approach will benefit your family and may even lead to a more relaxed baby who will sleep better.'

I think you are making assumptions about people with very little knowledge of their actual situations.

Are you suggesting that my baby was waking at night because my 'attitude' wasn't good enough?
Are you suggesting that my baby's sleep was broken purely because of her parent's stress?
Are you suggesting that this is the case with all babies whose sleep is broken??

There may be some parents who are superheros and martrys who don't need some sleep to function well but I am not one of them. My initial motivation for doing some cc was because my BABY was in so much distress not because I wasn't able (or willing) to put up with some normal new parent tiredness.

zippitippitoes · 09/03/2007 10:22

no

I was giving you another angle to help by offering the suggestion that being anxious about your own lack of sleep can make things worse all round

you need a multi faceted approach