Can I please have your honest opinions on CC? HV is recomending I am not sure.

[eenybeeny]

My HV is recomending CC for my 6 month old.

Our problems with his sleep are these:

1. He only naps in his pram. He screams and screams when I try to get him to nap in his cot during the day.

1. He wakes up to 6 times a night for one thing or another.

1. He wakes anywhere from 3 a.m. to 5 a.m. and is ready for the day.

Please give me any advice you have and let me know... is CC cruel? I really dont know. Normally, the thing is, when he cries I want to rush to him to help him. I dont know if I can leave him to cry. Please help!

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Thank you everyone for your thoughts and also the articles you linked to. I have read through them and also read through the posts...

My husband and I just can not do CC right now. I dont know if that will change in the future but for now we have decided its not for us. But thanks for posting I think I have had a pretty balanced response.

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Very thoughtful post danae thank you.

I was about to order 'The Science of Parenting' when I came across an interview with the author.

It was this quote, 'The blunt truth is that uncomforted distress may cause damage to the child's developing brain.' that triggered alarm bells.
No scientist who values her reputation would use the word 'may' in the same sentence as 'blunt truth' while making such a charged statement.
Where are the caveats, the parameters of the scientific tests undertaken?
It almost touches on satire! You could have a lot of fun making up statements like that:
'The blunt truth is a hurricane may hit London which may lead to a massive drop in house prices.'
Better sell up now - quick!
'The blunt truth is people who frequently post on Mumsnet may risk losing their partners and
may be neglecting their children so much so that they may end up sad and lonely.'
HELLO!?! BONJOUR!?! This is science, is it??

This, for example, is science. Compare and contrast.

That poor innocent word 'may' does come in for an awful lot of abuse on extremist anti-CC
websites - this one is a particularly unpleasant example. The word 'may' gets used EIGHT times, the word 'could'
THREE times. It would be hilarious if it weren't so nasty - the last 'quote' reinforces that
this stuff is not science. It is just propaganda or spin, as one says under New Labour!

And above all, it is scaremongering and ever since becoming a parent I have developed a healthy
contempt for companies that try and press the 'fear' button to sell me stuff - or loopy lobbyist
groups who try and force their belief system onto people using scare tactics.
The parent equivalent to 'Sex sells' is 'Fear sells' and these people know it and exploit it to the max.

This article brings a bit of sanity to the debate of science of parenting.

The more research I do the more I come to the conclusion that parenting is very similar
to religion. It's about beliefs. Or to quote the anti-cc camp: 'Just because there is no
evidence that it exists, does not mean it does not exist.'
Precisely. Just like God (or Allah or Jehova or [name your God]).

So, should we be really arguing about beliefs?

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I think 6 months is a bit too young for CC.

I did do CC, but DD was 20 months old and old enough to understand what was happening and to reason with.

I think there are better and as effective systems for helping such a young baby sleep longer than CC.

hulababy - what methods would you recommend?

No recommendations here I'm afraid as never used any. A friend successfully used the no cry sleep solution already mentioned here, although her child was older.

bloss, in many many cultures, women who fail to bf are extremely rare. in those cultures where bf is the norm, where women have grown up watching other women bf then bf rates are close to 100%.
it isn't instinct that is at fault, it is the layers of culture laid on top of it that get in the way of successful bf, and make it acceptable to leave babies to cry.
the stuff about high levels of cortisol having a detrimental effect is pretty well accepted tbh, see also the studies about nursery care &c

My question would be, how can you be sure that you're dealing with a 'sleep problem' in a 6 month old? You're never 100% sure why they're waking so to not respond wouldn't solve the 'problem' if the problem ain't sleep. IYSWIM

All cc will do is exhaust them so they do fall asleep (job done) but personally I wouldn't be able to sleep knowing I'd just let her cry herself to sleep. (She's 6 months too and there is no pattern to her wakings other than it happens frequently.)

hear hear GN! Se you on SIFTW!

bloss, regarding your flippant comment below I omitted to make it very clear:
The blunt truth is wearing underpants on their heads may psychologically damage your children.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Right, I am watching something unmentionable but related on Five Live now.

Bloody ad break.

Regarding cortesol levels, yes, I have no doubt that they rise in a crying baby,
just as stress levels rise in a teenager that has to sit exams, but at what point is
it damaging? And what kind of damage are we talking about? How does it manifest itself
and how do we measure the damage? Not the cortesol but the long-term damage itself?
No one knows.
So how can anyone claim that there is any damage?

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs but this has little to do with science.

eenybeeny - sorry I've not read all the responses to your thread but FWIW I have a DD who happily went into her cot for naps and bedtime (all night) from about 8wks with barely a peep and have a DS(13mths)who won't go near his cot during the day, & has to be walked outside in his buggy to sleep, and regularly wakes 3/4 times a night very distraught and needing comfort (usually ending up in our bed). We've tried most things non CC related and have discovered that "he just needs us". Some children just need more reassurance than others - it's a PITA but there you go, parenthood. It's not for long in the great scheme of things. I'd say enjoy it - but it's not exactly a barrel of laughs is it. Sorry I can't be of more use but I'd really go with your gut feeling and if you feel, even slightly, that CC isn't for you then don't do it.

daddy j - i love you - will you marry me?

hey, wait, i'm already married!

seriously...I second you 100% And i love ur analogy about parenting being like a religion.

Why are people so judgmental about parenting that they wouldn't partake in - eg cc.

I think it's all about justifying ur own position in life. What's wrong with saying - sucs and such doesn't suit me but it works for many others and leave it at that.

I've eaten lots of humble pie since giving birth - it's all part of the learning process.

Read a really good paper recently that describes how having been flooded with cortisol means NO new learning can take place. It wasn't about cc either, just a point about something else.

I'm a HV too. CC does work and I used it with my own child (when he was 10 months( BUT it has to be in a form you can cope with. I couldn't possibly leave my baby the suggested 10 mins - 5 mins was too much and in the end I settled for sitting in the room with him and settling him every 2-3 mins. I also lifted him if I thought he was getting hysterical as my instincts told me to. It probably took longer than the traditional CC but within 3 weeks he was sleeping through the night.
I haven't read about the "No Cry Sleep Solution" but it sounds kinder to Mum and Baby so must read about it.

So - CC works but you might need to adapt it as I had to - waiting 10 mins just seemed so hard on both of us.

amijee, I am blushing now..in a smiley sort of way
Hope things are going well with your ds!

If M. Sunderland spent 4 years researching 'children's reactions to painful situations' and
she still can only make statements containing that telling word 'may', then it is probably
fair to say that this particular debate cannot be decided by science - let alone by
alarmist opinion masquerading as science.

eenybeeny, you and your dh know best when it comes to your son and I am sure you will
all sleep better soon. A lot of people prefer the softly-softly approach and keep CC as
a last resort.

You asked whether CC is cruel - no, it's a fairly balanced way of communicating a message
and teaching a skill. It involves effort on the part of parents
and baby who expresses that effort through crying (and sometimes so do the parents..).
Some people insist that all cries are the same and necessitate an immediate response by
the parent and only once dc starts talking can you really tell what their needs are.
Fair enough. Different strokes, folks etc.

My opinion is that if your lo has found his rhythm and goes to bed every night at 7pm
after bath time and after having had a long and satisfying boob session - then that would
be a good time to start CC, whatever his age (3,4,6 months). The 'Don't do CC before 6 months' thing
is yet another one-size-fits-all opinion. Unfortunately, this one gets repeated ad nauseam, often
accompanied by pseudo-scientific fearmongering.

HVs recommend CC at 6 months as most babies are developed enough to sleep through the night
without another feed and by then are doing it out of habit rather than need. We were given the same advice.
If you feel that your lo does need one or two feeds during the night it would still make sense
to use CC for the post 7pm sleep period just to get the ball rolling gently.

We co-slept until 3 months (taking all the health warnings into account) and then gently
moved dd out of our bed and over a period of several months first taught her how to settle
herself and then how to sleep 7-6 using CC (again doing it as baby-friendly as possible but
having a hearty chuckle at all the 'psychological damage' bla bla).

We still don't do CC during the day because there simply is not a firm rhythm in place.
Morning naps can start anytime between 8-9:30, afternoon naps between 12 and 2pm -
v hard to find the exact time to put her down. On the very few recent occasions when we have done
she just nibbles her toes and hums a merry tune for half an hour..

Whatever you and your dh do, be bold, confident and don't let anyone take away your
choices by playing the fear card.
We live in a very risk-shy society (m'learned friends have a lot to answer for) but
as usual taking calculated risks can pay healthy dividends.

daddyj - are you an ordinary daddy or do you have a medical/psychology background? You are very interesting!

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I was on the other CC support threads. Here are some somewhat jumbled and random thoughts: I did cc with dd1 at 3 months on Ferber's, then, advice. After 2 or 3 nights she was going to sleep by herself with no crying. During cc she never cried for more than 10 mins with me going in at 2 or 4 min intervals. Then she fell asleep. She never cried hysterically or in a way which seemed damaging to her.
Due to general chaos and PND DD2 was 5 and a bit months by time i got round to it with her.
To cut a long story short, i did cc for a couple of nights but had to be more organised about naps and nap and bedtime cues in general before i really got any result. DD2 (now 5 months and 3 weeks) now has 2 naps a day of about 1-1.45 hrs, before she slept maybe 20 mins twice a day and was miserable from 5.30pm on, making it impossible to do anything nice with DD1 never mind get her supper and bedtime done with any degree of calm. I think routine and cues are all important, DD2 knows when i wrap her in her blanket and put her in her cot that she's at a place and time where sleep is the best option. This morning i bfed her a little first and there was about 2 mins of angry crying, i went back in, stroked her face, said it was just a wee nap and left. She went to sleep 20 seconds later.
I think Ferber is just covering hmself when he says you shouldn't do cc with a child under 1 y because of all the 'research' that is being aired. Personally i think a 1 yo would suffer more pyschological damage with cc than a 3 mo. I think cc shouldn't involve leaving a child to scream or sob. Only you will know if your child is responding in a positive way - it's a very subtle thing and no-one else can describe your experience for you in a book. I think there are 'windows' where it works better than at other ages. The 5 - 6 month mark is bound to be harder than 2 or 3 months because of seperation anxiety, which incidentally i dont think has anything to do with how well a baby can see. I don't expect dd2 to sleep through the night yet (she wakes once or twice for a bfeed) although her sister was sleeping from midnight to 9am at 3 mo, they are different people after all, but i do think having naps and falling aleep easily at bedtime is beneficial for dd2 and all the family. I agree that sleep begets sleep. Now that dd2 is napping she gets sleepy at naptime.
My advice as a parent who has had mixed experience with cc is that you first put a daily routine in place and then make sure you always do everything exactly the same at bed and nap times. Then if you're not happy try cc for 2 or 3 nights/days at naptimes but be flexible, i went in at 2 min intervals or multiples of 2 not the 5 and 10 recommended. I think i got just as good a response and quicker. If your baby is screaming the place down take it more slowly but try to cut out another of the things that is preventing him from going to sleep on his own i.e. pick him up but don't feed him (unless it's time for a feed obviously).
I agree that leaving a baby to scream for hours can not do any good but i think leaving him to cry for a couple of minutes, max 30 - 45 with you going in at 5 min intervals for several nights running, will not do any harm if the rest of the time he gets loads of love and cuddles. I resent the posters who say ' i love my baby so much i couldnt possibly do cc' - do you think people who do cc don't love their babies? There are many ways of mistreating a child in a western society - a crap diet (I can get just as angry about sugar as some anti-cc-ers can about cc), too much TV, starting daycare before the age of 2 or 3, bringing them up in a polluted city...there are lots of things many caring parents do without thinking twice that cause far more damage to a child's body and soul than cc. This is becoming a rant, I'll stop here or it'll turn into a book too. 'Hi' to the others from the CC support threads - We're getting there and everyone in our house is sleeping more now and in a better mood when awake- Hurrah!

Ferber has NEVER advised CC for babies only 3 months old. He implies it in his book (badly written in that respect) but has always said 6 months as the minimum age in subsequent interviews.

Sorry, i only read the book, not the subsequent interviews.

DD1 didnt read the book or the interviews and she responded very quickly to CC. She was, however, an exceptionally easy baby in many ways.