What am I doing wrong

[celeryeater]

5mo DD

Bed at half 7
Wake up at 8.10ish?
Takes until half 9 to go back down
Wakes at 12.15
Takes at least 30 minutes to go back down
Wakes at 2.30
Takes until 4.10 to go back down
Wakes at 5.30

Each time she wakes I offer breast because it's the only thing that gets her to go off again quickly but lately she's been waking completely in the night and not going back to sleep.
We have a routine of bath, pyjamas, last feed in a quiet darkened room
She goes down in her own cot first and after the first waking when I'm in bed she comes in next to me on a sleepyhead mattress. DP has been sleeping on the sofa since she was born because he can't cope.
Just so so tired I could cry

I find you or anyone coming on a thread and touting your marvellous parenting skills as the reason for your child's sleep as unhelpful

That's needlessly insulting. I have never suggested that about my parenting.

However I do advocate ways to teach babies to sleep independantly (with comfort). And I am vocal about that to counter the "babies don't sleep, get used to it there is nothing you can do" ethos.

I should add that I vocally advocate loads of ways to encourage independant comforting that I wouldn't use myself as a parent. This is therefore nothing to do with my parenting, marvolous or not.

I'm on a mission to help the Mums of Mumsnet know there are lots they can do to encourage sleep without creating any distress to mother or baby. That's not me touting my marvellous parenting. It's not me being unhelpful. The opposite in fact.

Have you asked your HV for advice? Mine was great when I was struggling with daytime naps- now do one in buggy or sling in the morning and one in cot in the afternoon (10.5 month old).

For me, the sleep deprivation was very closely linked to PND - also, my milk supply didn't increase until 6/8 weeks when I started getting more sleep - better rest =more milk. At that point i could reduce the formula I was giving her. Please be careful OP - a friend of mine crashed her car due to sleep derivation.

There are things you can do to help your baby learn to connect sleep cycles- don't respond to every grunt and wait to see if they actually are hungry. Otherwise you train them to wake for food at the end of every sleep cycle.

18 degrees is a bit cool but I was deciding what to dress her in based on the grobag website www.gro-store.com/grobag-guide
I do get her to nap in the day although as I've said it's usually on me or in the buggy. It's not the same times every day either because our routine changes or we do different things or she won't just nod off anywhere. I never stop her from sleeping in the day. The bedtime really is chosen by her, there gets a point where she crashes. I tried keeping her on my lap last night as suggested but she was just sleeping not feeding and the amount she did suck didn't trigger my let down anyway. Also my bum went numb and I really needed a wee!
I don't know what the solution is. If this is just how she is I still don't see the harm in trying things, either it will work or it won't. There is a Hv who ran a post natal class I went to who said she does home visits to help with sleep so I may contact her.
Only thing I thought about last night was she rubs her face and eyes a lot when half awake that seems to wake her up more and make herself cry. I know lots of babies do this but she really looks itchy and when I try to stop her she really tries to fight me. She does it when feeding too although hardly ever when she's awake fully.

I just meant sleeping in the cot in the day might help her to practise self settling, not that you were withholding nap time

The grobag guide and others are a bit different- jojo recommend more clothes/covers on their guide. Our nursery is 18 degrees at bedtime but drops to 16 overnight so I often put my DD in a long sleeve vest, babygro and 2.5 tog bag. She's also in a sleepyhead which cocoons her a bit.

The eye rubbing thing is what my DD does when over tired. She used to do it a lot and didn't settle well. An earlier bath/bedtime routine (bath, massage, story, milk, bed) helped.

When I say self settling, my DD has a dummy, comforter and white noise so not really self settling at all!

There is no harm whatsoever in trying anything that might work, and I don't want my posts to be misinterpreted as 'don't bother trying anything'. Do try, if you have the energy, but don't pin hopes on anything. It's safer for your sanity!

DS2 was a bugger for rubbing his face and waking himself. We had some marginal success with a Swaddle Up, which doesn't cost a bomb so it's no odds if it doesn't work. It gave him a little bit of movement with his arms but deadened his hyperactive startle. I think it gave him a few extra minutes on each cycle and helped with a transfer into a cot.

Mine does the eye rubbing thing when over tired (also swaying and slumping- looks like she's drunk!). She tends to take longer to get to sleep if she's like that.

We started a bedtime routine at 3 months and she gradually moved it earlier and earlier- initially was going to sleep at about 9pm and having a dream feed at 10.30. By four months she wouldn't settle downstairs in the evening - too much noise and light so we started popping her upstairs to bed which worked brilliantly (although harder for us to get to bed later on as she was still in a side sleeper next to our bed at that point). She kept moving her bedtime earlier (the sleep cues started earlier) until it's now 6.30ish- usually asleep by 7pm.

The HV you mentioned OP definitely sounds worth calling!

was deciding what to dress her in based on the grobag website

I've found the grobag site errs on the side of keeping baby cooler. They have to really, to mitigate against potential SIDs claims. I've always gone with more clothes.

My youngest is currently in 2.5tog, full sleepsuit plus vest. I make a call on short/long sleeved vest each night. Last few nights have been ss, last week we had several days of ls.

because our routine changes or we do different things

Could you regulate your routine? At least to a point.

For example I do all my out-the-house stuff in the morning. Babygroups, shopping, park, appointments, I arrange all of these between 9am-12pm. That way I am always (always always) at home 12-3pm for naptime.

Yes, there as baby groups and classes that only meet on afternoon's. But there are also morning ones and I always choose am not pm activities.

Likewise meeting friends. We meet for breakfast or elevensies. If I have a friend wants to meet in the afternoon, they come to mine for a cuppa because it's naptime so I can't go out.

Elphaba, is it ok to start swaddling a 5mo who hasn't ever been swaddled? I seem to remember reading somewhere it's not advised after 3 months if you don't normally do it.
I'll also look at the jojo website about temperature and grobags. She might benefit from an extra layer.

eye rubbing

It's a tired sign. Have you swaddled before? Because SIDs recommendations are that you don't introduce swaddling after 12 weeks. It can be used long after 12 weeks if already introduced, but not as a new thing.

If you've swaddled before - rip a cot sheet in half along the short edge to make two effective, cheap swaddle blankets.

I found swaddling an older baby really useful through this transition stage.

Crossed post

I will try and be more rigid with nap times. I like my groups around the 1pm mark so I can say nap time is 3 onwards. She is currently crashed out across my lap which to me is evidence she would benefit from more sleep at night too.

They don't have to be rigid. Watching awake time is useful though. If it's heading towards 2 hours (pref 90m) since last waking, it's probably time to try for a sleep.

So I'm terms of your days, you can work backwards from must-do timings. If you need to be out at 1pm then ideally you want baby waking for them. So asleep by 12pm. Back from that, it means he needs to be wakibg from previous nap by 10-10.30am. So asleep by 9.30am? And so on.

I'm out house I am tied to 9am and 3pm school runs. So I am required to manipulate when nap times are to fit in with school runs. You can use the same philosophy with other activities. It us worth making each day as consistent as posdible though.

DS2 was swaddled from birth similarly to how FATE describes, but a Swaddle Up is more like a loose bag made out of t-shirt material so it's not tight swaddling which, apart from any SIDS advice, would seriously piss a baby off who's not used to it!

With naps - pay attention to how long she's awake for, not by-the-clock nap times. At 5mo, start looking for sleepy signs after 90 minutes of awake time. At first yawn or eye-rub, get her asleep and keep her asleep for at least 40 minutes if you can. When she wakes up, start watching the clock for another 90 minutes then repeat. She should have at least three naps a day with this, with night sleep cycles starting after 6pm. Concentrating on this never stopped the frequent wakes, but it made for much happier babies when they were awake.

X-post with FATE. See, we do agree on some things

Ok thank you!

I would agree with earlier posts about later bedtime. I gave up trying any sleep modification/soothing/routines i didn't try very hard and fed them to sleep, cosleeping as this was the easiest way for all to get enough sleep. My first woke fairly regularly during the night until aged 1 yr, so I accepted this would be the way for my next 3 children and was pleasantly surprised that 2 of them were a little better (but never longer than 6 hrs before over 1 yr old).

To me it feels like people were CONSTANTLY asking "how does DC sleep?" (maybe I look tired?) and in the end I would just say fine.
When I said they woke multiple times but we got back to sleep quickly and in the 24 hrs we managed enough sleep - everyone was ok with this at 2 weeks old but at 6 months they started saying things like "it can be awful" or "have you tried . . . . " when I wasnt asking. So I am one of the liars.

What I tended to do (with difficulty) is keep baby awake during dinner/evening, then feed baby and sit on sofa from 8pm as late as possible. then when asleep, get myself a snack and then go to bed 10 -11pm and feed when I got into bed /cosleep. Baby woke for feeds but we slept enough. Baby woke early-ish (cant remember times now sorry) but then often went back to sleep around 9am which gave me a chance to eat/change etc

I considered my sleep/ baby situation pretty good because I stayed in bed and fed lying down. If I had to get out of bed (even just to cross room) or bottle feed a baby once in the night to me that would be a lot worse - but that is for me, other people could probably manage this fine. In the end I feel I just prioritised myself getting enough sleep by doing it this way. I only did it by giving up measuring any sleep/timing (I kept phone/watch out of reach) and by lying down to feed.

I had dc2 10 weeks ago and the thing that I have done that has made most difference as compared with dc1 is put him to bed earlier!! Essentially with dc2 the witching hour until he went to bed was truly grim but with dc2 I just out him to bed at 6.15ish. He still does a total of 12-13 hrs sleep at night

Definitely worth a try in my opinion, especially with a bad napper which both of mine were/are.

we do agree on some things

We agree on lots Elphaba. Most notably that we both give some of our free time to helping and supporting other mums through sleep deprivation. Like several other of the regular posters here on Sleep, I think you should be respected for trying to help other Mums.

lol

Being at home for naps wouldn't have worked for us at all. (The friends in our group that did this missed out on so much and are very distant now.)

Some great advice from FATE. I do also totally get what elphaba is saying - we tried pretty much everything and nowt worked.
lapin sleep consultants can be fantastic but they don't have all the answers for all babies. We tried two sleep consultants (both gave very sensible advice on routines/objectbpermanence but nothing we weren't doing already) we tried the hospital who have a specialist sleep service. They came out to observe us with a huge list of recommendations then were all 'oh, you're already doing that...uummmm.'

I think some babies are just very high needs. I hate the term but it's true. The vast majority can be sleep trained - ours probably could too IF we were willing to crack him with cry it out but I'm not. We did cc but it didn't work.

I think try all this advice - it certainly can't hurt. BUT if at the end of it you're still in the same boat then don't beat yourself up. The professor we were seeing said that in her experience roughly 5% of children just will not sleep through until they are 18mo or so.

It may not be normal per se, but it's not abnormal either. Learn to feed lying down - it helps so much.

One last thing to try: dh settles her in the night. Pick the first wake up, he goes up and settles her. You can feed her if she is truly hungry but he gets her back to sleep. It'll take ages the first few times but she's safe and being cuddled - it's ok for her to yell. Then next wake up feed her, and you gradually reduce the incentive to wake for food.

We agree on lots Elphaba. Most notably that we both give some of our free time to helping and supporting other mums through sleep deprivation.

ElphabaTheGreen likes this.

"very high needs"

I'm never sure about the term. Some children find sleep easier than others, as discussed earlier. But the term "(very) high needs" is too subjective for my liking. The threshold will natually differ from person to person. I believe it will also change with hindsight.

11 years ago I would have said DC1 was very, very high needs. With hindsight and experience I can look back on all the parenting mistakes I made and realise if I had DC1 now, she (the individual child) was my last child and not my first, she'd be a lot less high needs because I would have patented her differently in relation to sleep.

Does that mean my at-the-time diagnosis of "very high needs baby" was wrong?

Likewise - My other daughter is possibly the lowest needs baby in the world, in my current view.

But she was waking in the night until 12 months old. She needed to room-share with me until a years old. At 5 months old we would have times of multiple night wakes.

Others would look at that and think - not sleeping through until 12? Definately high needs. Maybe not "very", but still high needs. Indeed if she'd have been my first child and I had unrealistic expectations maybe I'd have called her "very very high needs"? But she's not. She's incredibly easy and low need in terms of sleep.

I'm waffling. My point is the "high needs" lable is more about making the parent feel better about their situation and less about an accurate description of the child's natural sleep personality.

BUT if at the end of it you're still in the same boat then don't beat yourself up

That's really important and you are completely right Zaurak.

What we were saying earlier about encouraging real and open discussion about night wakings being normal is so that new parents can go into Motherhood with realistic expectations.

I'm the one hand they are told - follow your baby's lead and all will be well with sleep. So they assume they don't need to do anything and baby will be sleeping through in no time.

Whereas chilling out. Not beating yourself up if baby wakes a lot. Not beating yourself up for encouraging independant sleep. Just being kind to yourself - these things help no end.

The OP for example. While I would be doing stuff with a long-term view to independant sleeping at 5 months old, I wouldn't be expecting baby not to need me to get to sleep. I would be expecting night wakes, sometimes lots of them. This wouldnt be causing any anxiety or worry. I wouldn't be seeking to "solve" anything anytime soon.

The anxiety these unrealistic expectations being us most of the problem.

I do not agree with the term high needs either.
It usually comes down to having reflux and/or CMPA so the child is in pain, or chronic overtiredness.