What am I doing wrong

[celeryeater]

5mo DD

Bed at half 7
Wake up at 8.10ish?
Takes until half 9 to go back down
Wakes at 12.15
Takes at least 30 minutes to go back down
Wakes at 2.30
Takes until 4.10 to go back down
Wakes at 5.30

Each time she wakes I offer breast because it's the only thing that gets her to go off again quickly but lately she's been waking completely in the night and not going back to sleep.
We have a routine of bath, pyjamas, last feed in a quiet darkened room
She goes down in her own cot first and after the first waking when I'm in bed she comes in next to me on a sleepyhead mattress. DP has been sleeping on the sofa since she was born because he can't cope.
Just so so tired I could cry

Maybe it's better to say it's not abnormal rather than saying it's normal. How many families in your NCT group? I'm guess no more than 10. So it could say be 10% of similar aged babies sleep badly. My dad is a bit over 4 months and is sleeping horrifically at the moment. She doesn't really nap (and if she does for very very short ones only) and won't be put down ever. She screams in a pram, screams in a car, she only likes being held or being in a carrier. Doesn't mean she's abnormal. It does mean she's a pain in the bum though!

1. They may well be lying - the title of your post is self-condemnatory isn't it? I must be a bad parent, and it's my fault if my baby doesn't sleep. Easier to just lie, say my baby 'sleeps through' (by however I choose to define that) and everyone will believe I'm a brilliant mum.
2. All babies are different. The more honest you are - and everyone is, for that matter - about normal baby sleep, the more night waking will be accepted as 'normal'. Frequent night wakings are firmly on the spectrum of normal for the first two years of life. Some buggers people get sleepy babies, some don't. It's a developmental skill that comes at very different times for different babies. You can't force sleep any more than you can force walking or talking. They'll sleep, or respond to sleep training methods, when they're ready, and not before. Until then, batten down the hatches, and make friends with co-sleeping and caffeine.

Google The Milk Meg or look for her on Facebook. She has lots of brilliant blog posts on the subject of baby night wakings and is very hot in the topic of normalising night wakings so that mothers are equipped to cope with fatigue, not beating themselves down with unreasonable expectations.

It makes me so angry when people say to accept long-term sleep deprivation and not to bother trying to fix it.
It is NOT normal for babies to be awake half the night and hardly ever nap properly in the day.

Very true. I would lay down with her to sleep /feed but I don't really get it - don't you end up just feeding on one side all night long? I can only get my boob at the right angle propping my head up on my arm and can't sleep like that. Isn't it unsafe? I have co slept with her on the bed in the past but followed all the advice about no blankets, laying with arm out so you can't roll over etc. If she was laying next to me facing in wouldn't that be a suffocation hazard? We use a sleepyhead cushion now and that is better because it feels safer and she will sleep in it. Before we had that she just wanted to sleep on me constantly, not even next to me was good enough.

Elphaba I have a horrible feeling you are right about all this and there really isn't anything I can do but I am still willing to try anything! I should be asleep now because she is but I can't sleep. 4am I will be wanting to bash my own head in again.

Development leap to enable crawling, probably. Teething, possibly. You may be putting her down too early - they don't really have bedtimes till much later (if at all).

It is NOT normal for babies to be awake half the night and hardly ever nap properly in the day

Evolutionary biology says otherwise. It's only modern that wants them to fit into unnatural routines.

*modern society

I have co slept with her on the bed in the past but followed all the advice about no blankets, laying with arm out so you can't roll over etc. If she was laying next to me facing in wouldn't that be a suffocation hazard?

My first slept on me for the first 4 months, then in the crook of my arm in my bed (no pillow and blanket well out of her way) until 8 months or so. (She still likes to sleep there when she's poorly and she's almost 8 now.) As long as you follow guidelines re pillows etc you'll be fine.

It makes me so angry when people say to accept long-term sleep deprivation and not to bother trying to fix it.

Re-read my post where I clearly stated that I tried every sleep training method under the sun, Lapin. I spent a very great deal of (wasted) time and energy trying to fix something that wasn't broken to begin with.

It is NOT normal for babies to be awake half the night and hardly ever nap properly in the day.

No it's not. But OP's baby is not awake half the night. Her baby wakes frequently (yes, that's very normal, sorry to burst your bubble, but evidence is firmly on my side in this one) but, judging by her most recent posts, can be got back to sleep quickly using the right method. Her baby also does nap properly - on her or in a sling, for about forty minutes at a time, which is one full sleep cycle for a baby. That is not a baby with a sleep problem. That is a baby that needs support to sleep, appropriate to her age.

OP, it's shitty, shitty hard. So hard. But it ends. DS1, now four, is off on a 'lads holiday' with DH for half term, having a blast and will sleep through tonight in a bed of his own. DS2, now two, fell asleep independently in his own cot at 8pm and will (last four molars permitting) sleep through until at least 5am (yeah, he thinks that's 'morning'...but he sleeps through!). I deeply regret ever letting them scream to get them to sleep more, because that was the only alternative - 'no cry' didn't happen for them without boob. It didn't work, and we got less sleep. I do not regret supporting them to sleep in the way they were biologically designed to, despite the sleep I lost.

Feeding while lying down - I suppose it depends on the size of your boobs, but I could feed off alternate sides when lying on my side - I just had to tip slightly for them to get the 'top' boob. I pretty much only slept on my right side to facilitate this for the duration I co-slept with them. I was so fecking tired I sometimes even slept on my back, and I am a dedicated side sleeper! I never slept with my back to them - you have a built-in subconscious safety mechanism that will stop you from doing that.

She is awake again and feeding as DP couldn't settle her (dummy didn't work) and I was awake anyway. I hate the thought of letting her scream too. I wish I could manage without sleep and just hold her all night. I know it won't last forever and that makes it slightly easier but it's still hard when you're in the thick of it. I think she is teething again, or at least movement in her gums from the amount of dribble. Wondering if she could be needing real food now too? Maybe just milk isn't enough anymore. She'll be 23 weeks tomorrow so I don't think it's that early for it.

Is she showing an interest in your food?

What are you giving for the teething?

Not particularly showing an interest in our food but can hold her head up fine now. Chews toys and fingers a lot (but that could be the teeth too). Then there's not being as settled after a feed as she used to be and waking up frequently to feed but then she has always woken up a lot but she used to do about 3-4 hour stretches. I have just been using bongela teething gel for the teething but a friend has recommended Nelson granules. I looked for them today in a pharmacy but they didn't have them just the gels.

Don't pin your hopes on weaning making a difference, or wean too early because of the mistaken belief it will. Hooray if it does, and go ahead and try it if she's sitting independently, bringing things to her mouth without help and has lost the tongue-thrust, but I refer to my earlier point about frequent night wakings having virtually nothing to do with hunger. Interest in food isn't a sign of readiness - five month olds are interested in anything and everything, food or not. A good comment I read on here once was, 'My four month old is really interested in my car keys - that doesn't mean I'm about to let her drive.'

Teething gels are crap - they just slide off gums and numb the tongue. Use anbesol liquid - it does exactly what it's supposed to.

Nelsons powders would do the job - there's no active ingredients (homeopathic woo) but the texture makes them rub and bang their gums together which stops the pain. Ashton and parsons powders contain actual chamomile so have a calming effect (it's widely known as baby crack) - thoroughly recommend. If she's distressed with teething then baby ibuprofen is better than paracetamol as it's anti inflammatory.

Neither of my boys gave me longer than two hours at a stretch for the first 18 months of their lives... I learned that accepting the biological norm was by far and away the easiest thing to do

This generalisation isn't helpful Elphaba.

Just as the suggestion that all babies can and should be sleeping through by 6 months is an unhelpful generalisation that is unsupportive to parents. So is the suggestion that 2 hourly wakes for 18 month is the "biological norm".

They may well be lying

I disagree. When I was in the hell of sleep deprivation with my non-sleeping DC1 I used to think folks who talk about their easy-sleeping babies were lying. Then I had DC2, DC3 and DC4 and I realised they weren't.

Lots of parents have babies who sleep in large chuncks from early on in life. Mostly FF but sometimes EBF too. They don't lie. It's just easier for a mum going through sleep deprivation to assume they are.

normalising night wakings

This is definately needed.

If only we could lose the "them and us" attitude that well-sleeping babies have parents who

• lie
• are lucky
• have done nothing to achieve this.

I worked really hard with my youngest gently teaching her to sleep independantly. I started teaching her from newborn.

I'm not "lucky" that she sleeps well. We worked at it right from the word go. Having said that though, it took until 9 months for her to sleep 12h and until 12 months until that was consistent. I put in lots of caring, nurturing hours to get her there. My guidance (parenting) is what got her sleeping through.

Shying away from the fact that parenting style does affect how a baby sleeps is not a way to "normalise" baby sleep.

Just as I'm not "lucky" and my children are not DD "sleepy babies" (just a normal babies), I also don't lie that FF DC3 was sleeping 12h blocks by 7 weeks old and unweaned EBF DC2 was sleeping 12h blocks by 5 months.

Babies who sleep well (either naturally or by being taught) should be normalised in exactly the same way night wakings needs to be normalised. That way no one needs to feel bad that their child wakes but they can be equiped with techniques to encourage sleep without being made to feel guilty for wanting baby to sleep more.

I worked really hard with my youngest gently teaching her to sleep independantly. I started teaching her from newborn.

Human babies don't have the neural capability to sleep independently from birth. So unless you "gently" modified her brain to that of an older baby, what you did probably did fuck all.

I worked really hard with my youngest gently teaching her to sleep independantly. I started teaching her from newborn.

Human babies don't have the neural capability to sleep independently from birth. So unless you "gently" modified her brain to that of an older baby, what you did probably did fuck all.

Completely agree.

FATE you did get lucky. I also worked from day one with DS2 after the horror that was DS1 and nothing worked - trust me, I did the swaddling, dummy, bouncy chair, white noise dances that you swear by, and then some, and they Did. Not. Work. You got lucky in that you had babies that responded to sleep modification methods. Maybe in that regard, your parenting did do something in that had you done nothing they'd have been worse, but I find you or anyone coming on a thread and touting your marvellous parenting skills as the reason for your child's sleep as unhelpful as you find my advice to accept and cope. Look at the language people, including the OP, use - new mothers think they're doing something wrong. When I was on here in the early days begging for advice, if someone came on stating emphatically that your child's sleep was all down to your skills as a parent it made me feel a thousand times worse. Now, I look back at those who gave the 'accept it' advice and wish I'd paid attention to them. I would still have been exhausted, but at least I wouldn't have been crippled with guilt as well over my apparently shitty mothering.

We've been on a million threads together, stating the same opposing positions. OP can take what she likes, but time, in the end, is the only 'fix'.

I think people are basing their opinions on this on their own babies as obviously you would. The problem is all babies are different and what works for one doesn't for another. Had another bad night with DD waking 4/5 times. I can't really remember because I was half asleep the whole time. I think I could accept this if I was just getting a little bit more sleep. Maybe I just need to let DP do more at the weekends and try to take naps.

Maybe I just need to let DP do more at the weekends and try to take naps.

^^ This. And not stay on MN until after 10:30 at night

Yes, people on this thread are talking about their own babies. But I am not.
I got a sleep consultant for my baby and I was so impressed with her that I went to work for her. I did not do any sleep training, I was helping set up appointments, after are etc.
During that time I saw her work with hundreds of babies who were in a very very bad state sleep-wise. All of them without exception were sleeping 11-12 hours a night after 3 days.

The things she did were simple - consistent routine, no sleep props like feeding or rocking to sleep etc.

So although every human being on this planet is different and special and that applies to babies too...when it comes to sleep we are surprisingly similar.

And elphaba - most of the mums & dads had tried everything too. Just inconsistently and without proper support or guidance.

I used a sleep consultant as well, Lapin for both of mine. Didn't work until they were old enough for it to work (DS1 - almost two and DS2 around 18 months old) and most certainly didn't work after three days. It took months. There was nothing wrong with my consistency. My boys were just not sleepers. Some babies aren't. To this day neither of them has come close to a 12 hour block. 10 hours at the most, and that's all they need.

Human babies don't have the neural capability to sleep without comfort from birth.

They are a great many ways they can acess the comfort needed independantly. Dummy and swaddle would be the most widely used ways.

Your quote: "Human babies don't have the neural capability to sleep independently from birth" is a paraphrase of Sarah OS's page on baby sleep.

It's entirely scientific for the facts she presents. However it cannot (and IS NOT) a true reflection of the facts because omits one very key point - she assumes babies who are encouraged to sleep are done so without comfort.

That entire webpage could be paraphrased as:

"Give your child a dummy/comforter from birth to school age" but that would not sell very many books.

Her stuff that all children cannot self-sooth right through to school age - tick - absolutely true. Children will notnaturslky learn to sleep with no comfort. But children can and do get that comfort independantly (without an adult)

That stuff that Romanian babies left to cryin orphanages have perminant damage due to cortisol levels - tick - true again. But this is not any scientific basis that children getting their comfort from dummy/swaddle/whatever will have higher cortisol levels. They won't.

(and incidentally studies find breastfed babies have 40% higher cortisol levels than formula few babies - but no one uses that stick to bash breastfeeding mothers. Because that would be unsupportive to other parents)

Massive sympathy OP. You're not alone. There are three babies who have a similar night time wake up pattern to yours in my NCT group and I was up 5 times with my DD last night (she's nearly 9 months old).

I found my daughters sleep improved when I started trying to make sure her day time naps were in her cot. I would put down drowsy but awake and go back every couple of minutes to reassure until she slept. Prior to then she only napped well in her bouncer. Last night was a bit of a one off as she usually does well at night but I know it's largely down to the luck of the draw. Thought I'd mention naps though as they made a difference for me.

18 degrees is quite cool- does she have a vest on under her babygro?

Second ibuprofen for teething.

your parenting did do something in that had you done nothing they'd have been worse

That was the only point I was making Elphaba.

• There will be babies who will sleep easily.

●They can be parented in such a way that sleep is less encouraged and it might take longer for them to learn to sleep. ●They can be parented in such a way that sleep is encouraged and may learn to sleep quicker.

• There will be babies who find sleeping more difficult.

●They can be parented in such a way that it might take longer for them to learn to sleep. ●They can be parented in such a way that they learn to sleep quicker.

The children who find sleep easier/harder do exist. I agree. I also agree that parenting style can and does affect sleep.

Elphaba - your DC2 could have still been a poor sleeper at ages 3 or 4 without your excellent parenting.

To discount the effect of parenting style on baby sleep does a disservice in enouraging honestly amoungst parents.