sleep training / CIO hold my hand??

[FusionChefGeoff]

God, decided to do this last night. Always said I wouldn't but DC2 just can't settle if she wakes and I feel she needs to learn and I need some reliable and decent sleep! She's 1 and goes off fine with a bit of a cuddle but really struggles if she wakes up.

Last night she woke about 11.30. I gave up trying to settle her about 12.15 and just let her cry . She was fed, warm, dry nappy, had calpol so felt there was nothing I could do. She must have gone off about 1.30.

Went down well tonight but up at 22.00 so I went in once to check all ok, shushed and patted for about 5 mins then left. She has been on and off furious since. Gaps between shouting / screaming and silence are getting longer but she's still going.

Can you give me some tips / support or tales of success please??!!

I shouldn't go into her now, should I as it will make it all worthless...?

Yeah, co sleeping was lovely while it lasted, but after he was a year old, it just didn't work any more. He'd wake every hour and climb all over my head. That's when we did CC. I felt bad about it at the time, but I was insane with exhaustion, I've got a job to do and other children to think about. I need to think about what's best for all of us, and that's making sure we all get enough sleep.

Think when CC didn't work recently, CIO really was the only option. All kids are different. Some will be reassured by shush pat, sometimes sitting in the room until they go to sleep works, it just doesn't with my DS2. It's not abuse, he's a very happy child, and now he's back to sleeping brilliantly.

Oh I have had periods of that Half

I think all children go through phases of sleeping really effing badly,usually when they are teething, which can go on for some time, and this is normal IMO - it's not like they will never sleep again and I think sometimes parents are afraid that this is the case and once a bad sleeper, always a bad sleeper.

I think people feel they need to 'act now' or it will be dreadful for ever.

I don't disagree that babies need sleep but there are ways and means of achieving it.

I suppose when a child won't stop crying, which has happened to me occasionally, then you can do nothing and have to medicate at times (calpol, if they are in pain - not sedative etc) and just let them sort it out. It's not something I'd see as a plan though, or a strategy - it's just perhaps inevitable on a very rare occasion.

Normally though I find there is a reason a child is crying, and it's getting to the bottom of that, that is the way forward.

I've just stayed with mine and held them in these situations, I don't think I could walk away, and I think it is painful for both parties to walk away.
But as you say each parent has to decide their own methods.

Agree with the child abuse comment. I will comment too even just to help you understand that a lot of people think this is a really bad idea.

When she does give up and realise you're not coming she will probably sleep really well. Far far the best way to deal with a baby though.

But Anastasie holding them all night, every night, for weeks or months on end, when you have a job to get up for in the morning and other kids. please tell me how you physically did this. Our DC does not settle in our arms. DH and I would be happy to sit with her in a chair and doze if only she did. But she doesn't.

You say you've had phases of this but it sounds like your DC settles in your bed. So that was a solution. It's not a solution in my house because it doesn't work (it did with my first if needed).

Of course it's painful for both parties to walk away. Nobody does this for kicks. Of course there is a reason a child is crying. Often here it is because she is so dreadfully overtired she cannot sleep.

Right I'm going to step away from this thread now. Good luck, OP, I hope you all get some sleep, I'm sure you will all feel 100% better as a family when that happens.

Oh for gods sake leave the OP alone. I am trying to get my dD out of my bed and into her cot at the moment and there is no gentle way to do it. You just have to accept she'll be distressed and will forget about it soon enough.

She was upset when I stopped breastfeeding, and screamed for 3 days, refusing milk, inconsolable. How is that different?

I understand no one does it for kicks. I just wish that they wouldn't find it necessary to do at all. I think there are countless other methods of 'sleep training' which might be tried and in this instance, don't seem to have been at all.

It's sometimes been hard for me to function when it has been a very bad night but this is part and parcel of having an infant and we have just had to try and get by.

If a child will not settle in their parents arms it suggests either that they are in need of something else, in pain perhaps, or simply not tired enough - mine sometimes has a long nap and then will keep me up till 11pm or so, which is really hard but it is not frequent. He isn't crying though, he just wants to play or read or do a jigsaw.

If he were crying and unable to settle at all I'd be concerned about what was causing that. Could it be that putting them in their room, which they associate with being left, is making them anxious? I don't know. I know I don't 'push' for a bedtime though - when he is tired we go to bed. It's normally around 9, but I think if I tried to enforce say a 7 or 8pm bedtime it might create a problem.

Not saying that is the issue here, but often it is a question of the bigger picture, and we cannot know what that is.

I am trying to get my dD out of my bed and into her cot at the moment and there is no gentle way to do it.

Well that's why I didn't do it. Mine have all slept in my bed with me till about 3, 4yo when they decided their own bed was a fair enough option.

I don't see the point of struggling over this.

Because I don't want her in my bed anymore? I don't know what I'm trying to explain tbh, I don't care whether you see the point or not. I don't want to be a martyr hating having a baby in my bed but thinking I can't do anything about it.

However if any of your suggestions for doing it more gently worked, I would absolutely consider them. But they don't.

No, I get that you just don't want her in your bed any more. That's understandable, they do kick about, mine keeps pushing me out so I am clinging on to the edge.

But I don't think I would be happier any other way iyswim. He's got a cot bed thing in my room a few feet from the bed, and I could probably put him in that quite easily but then I'd have to get up when he needed a feed and it would be more work for me.

My mum told me when ds1 was three that he should be in a separate bed, in his own room as it was unhealthy for him to be sharing with me.

I tried it; he had a bed, and a room, but tbh those two or three weeks of having to go to him once or twice a night, actually stand up and walk somewhere to comfort him, nearly killed me. I am naturally lazy and it is easier for me to have them close by, if that makes sense>

Have you tried a cot/bed in the same room at all? Will she be moved when she is asleep?

I do appreciate it is a fecking nightmare when you want them to do something and they can't, or won't. I don't seek to condemn but I am happy to suggest other stuff, shoot it down if it doesn't help, that's Ok.

Hi Fusion, glad it's going ok for you, we did ok too. Can't be bothered with this thread as clearly not a place for supportive chat. Feel free to pm me if you fancy a chat about things on a bad night x

Hi Cosmic - I know!! There's a reason I didn't put this in AIBU!

She's just gone down like a dream for a nap so no bedtime or sleep anxiety yet

It took me till DC1 was about 2 to really truly understand that I am not qualified to judge or comment on anyone else's parenting as I can't possibly know them or their child. Seems a lot of other people aren't quite there yet.

Good luck tonight.

It is however my most active thread ever by far so that is making it all worthwhile!

Trying to suggest alternatives isn't judging. I might judge a course of action, but not a parent in terms of their love for their child and wish for a solution to what appears a horrible problem for them.

It is very clear that the parents on this thread really love their children and are just finding it hard to cope.

There is no shame in any of that and no reason to condemn it.

As an example if I saw a thread about smacking a child and asking for a hand to hold I might condemn the practice of smacking but not the parent for being in that situation and not knowing another way to resolve it.

Anyway good luck all whatever you decide to do.

We recently had to redo CC for our 20mo. Did it at 14 months, worked perfectly (although it was hard for those three or four nights), then she had an awful cold and ended up co-sleeping for a week. Fine at the time, but when she recovered it had to stop. So we did CC again, and now her sleep is better, we're all happier and I'm not falling asleep on my feet.

[Co-sleeping was/is a nightmare because we don't sleep well, she hardly sleeps (too busy trying to play), and then we're all miserable the next day, especially her.]

CC is not for everyone, but neither is shh/pat, gradual retreat, and so on. DD refused to go to sleep at all if I tried that because she just wanted to play (despite a militantly followed bedtime routine since 3mo). Leaving her to cry for a minute, two minutes, etc, at a time gave her the chance to work out how to sleep on her own. She knew we were there because we shushed her between timings, and it wasn't long before she worked out how to do it.

CC saved our sanity. It's not fun, but it works. I'm glad it seems to be doing so for you OP, your DD will be absolutely fine. Like you said before, she gets love and affection all day, an hour or so of crying at night for a few days isn't going to scar her for life. She won't even remember any of this.

Keeping my fingers crossed that it continues to improve for you!

To be fair, CC didn't work for us either. I couldn't leave her long enough because she was hurting herself.

There isn't room for a cot in our room, and she can be fast asleep on me. The second she's lowered into the cot the screaming starts.

Co sleeping doesn't have to be the alternative to leaving them to cry. I don't believe in leaving babies to cry whatever the circumstances or other issues. There's always a better way than that.

What are the better ways jw35?

Just so you can satisfy yourself they've been tried. You won't recommend anything we haven't.

Some things work for some families, and different things work for others. People have their reasons for doing things a certain way, and being a judgemental arse about someone's choices isn't helpful.

It's the pretending they always know if a better alternative that gets me.

Honestly, there are several suggestions I'd make but I'm not sure they would be welcome, and I suspect the other poster feels the same.

You didn't ask for advice and so it feels patronising to give it. Registering a concern at a controversial method is something some people feel compelled to do, but once it is said it feels more respectful to just bugger off and not try and aggravate things further.

If you do seriously want suggestions though just say so.

I thought you'd already made them anastasie? You mentioned a cot in the room earlier.

Of course people are asking for suggestions. The frustration is when people insist CC is awful, you ask for alternatives and they give you the stuff you were trying months ago. Which if worked, would've meant you never got as far as CC.

No offence but it feels very patronising.

Of course it does, I'm sorry. I did assume you couldn't have tried everything, but then I don't know what your parameters are.

I have only my personal experience to offer and it is probably not much help to you if any.

I will outline what I've done with all three, which is basic - just to accept that they would need me to get them to sleep and to be nearby for feeds etc for quite a while, and that I would rather they did this and that the crying was minimised, than suffer (for me, not so much them!) the crying that would come from my trying to enforce something different.

What I am probably saying is that my requirements are different to yours. I am far more upset and affected by a baby crying, than I am by a baby in my bed. Even if it means they stay there for a few years.

You might have a greater tolerance for crying, and less for your personal space being inhabited by a small child, in which case my method won't work at all for you.

I am surprised, though, genuinely that a child who is held and cuddled and rocked will not settle - unless it is used to having a feed or something as well, one of mine cried for a long time in my arms when I was trying to stop breastfeeding (recurrent mastitis - he was about 13 months I think) and he needed it to get to sleep - I couldn't bear it and just fed him in the end and that was the last time I tried it.

If it's used to being held/cuddled/laid with to go to sleep, I don't understand why that would stop working.

One thing that worked really well for me was to lie with mine, wait till they were sleeping, then carefully remove myself from the bed leaving them in place. This was a winner when I had a friend over or some other (unusual!) social opportunity to take part in.

I'm guessing you're limited as to your sleeping options, if you let her have your bed?

Again it might feel too much like being a martyr. That's not good for you to feel like that.

Also, I think we all distance ourselves from our children at some point. Not always in this manner - sometimes it's with stopping breastfeeding, sometimes making them sleep alone, sometimes leaving them with a sitter and so on. Reclaiming of the 'self' is a stage we all reach. Leaving a two or three year old to cope while we go in another room, insisting they stay behind the stairgate when we are cooking, sending them to nursery.

Some of it happens from our side and quite a lot, ideally IMO, from the child's - so letting it decide it is ready to sleep alone, play alone, be with a third party /in a nursery, preschool, or school setting...all children do this eventually anyway, some quite late, some quite early. Some babies reject the breast. mine never have

I've failed mine on various counts and in ways you probably wouldn't dream of, I am a poor cook, I don't wean them well, I didn't brush ds2's teeth enough. My house is untidy.

Not letting them cry for want of my proximity is one thing I can do. I don't know how much damage it causes; it's probably on a spectrum from a great deal, in the case of a severely negligent mother, to barely any/transient in an otherwise attentive and responsive parent.

If it can be avoided I think that is a good thing. But if on balance the baby is loved andcared for I don't think it is necessarily goingto harm them a huge amount - it's just something that their instincts scream against, and most parents' instincts scream against as well, which means I distrust it as a method. If it were meant to happen it would be easy.

I'll shut up now. I hope you find a way through this. Sorry for going on. I definitely don't have the answers - just a horror of crying babies. I always want to pick them up when we are out shopping etc as well.