20month old wont sleep!

[misdee]

please can anyone help. dd2 will go down happily for sleep between 7-8pm. but around midnight she will wake up and wont settle back down properly till around 3-4am. she is then up at 7am. she rarely has an afternoon nap, and if she does its only about an hour. she is rarely grumpy during the day, in fact is a lovely happy child, but unfortunatly i am not a lovely happy person when i have disturbed nights slee[p night after night (i should be used to this by now).

any suggestions anyone?

Has this always been the case misdee? Can you think of anything that wakes her at midnight? What do you do when she wakes up, I mean how do you handle it? What is she like? Awake and playful or grumpy and tired? How does she eventually go back to sleep when she settles?

It seems from what you're saying that she gets about 9-10 hours sleep in every 24 which would be thought by sleep experts to be not enough for her age. It should be 12-13 hours. My dd is 19 months and if she has less than about 13 hours it can really throw ALL her sleep out of synch - I'm a firm believer in the saying 'the more they sleep the more they sleep'. However, some people believe that some kids just don't need a lot of sleep and therefore I wonder if putting her to bed later would help? Though I know that means no evening for you.

when she wakes up, she is usually playful and full of life. occasionally she is grumpy so i put her back to bed and settle her back down. but she doesnt stay asleep on those days. i can be up 4 or 5 times a night with her, i usually give in and sleep in her room (bad i know but she has a double bed in there). she isnt teething as all her teeth are through and have been for months.
she will happily stay up later if i let her, but it doesnt make much differnce to her sleep patterns. she has never been one to sleep much, even when a newborn was awake between feeds and alert.

So how long has she had this pattern, misdee? When you say 'settle her back down' what do you do? And what do you do for the 3 hours she's awake and lively in the middle of the night?

I'm a bit flumoxed by this one actually. It seems that she's having a 'nap' between 8-12 then waking up for another stint of wakefulness, then having another 'nap' between 3-7. That's 2 4 hour naps. From what you say it does seem that she's a child that doesn't need much sleep. But you do! At least you need a solid block without a 3 hour gap in the middle. So if she sleeps an 8 hour night in total it's going to be a case of finding a way of getting her to do the 8 hours in a row.

I have no experience of this at all but I'm sure someone else will. Have you looked into the various sleep books like Richard Ferber or the Baby Whisperer stuff? Otherwise it might be worth speaking to a sleep councilor?

Really sorry I can't help more.

it was fine when she was younger and in a cot as she used to amuse herslef and leave me to sleep, i was aware she was awake but she wasnt crying or making much noise so it wasnt a problem. she does have the spate of sleeping thro and lie ins, but they are rare. she has various other problems, ezcema, which i think may be waking her up now, and she is occasionally sick during the night due to reflux (we think).
when i settle her back down, i gently say 'its time to go back to bed' lift her into bed, tuck her in, kiss her goodnight again and leave the room. she will sometimes doze off a bit after this.
I dont need much sleep myself, but i would like a long stretch of sleep with out any interruptions. i ust want to know why she is waking up, seeming very playful and doesnt need as much sleep as others.

It must be very hard for you. Why did you move her out of the cot? Could you put her back in one again for a while just so you get some peace? I'm reading between the lines and assuming she's now in a bed and getting out in the night when she wakes up? So does she then get into bed with you and play around there or do you get up fully and go to the lounge etc.? What happens if you try to be v. strict and not let her get up, do you think she'd settle on her own again? It seems that she's very good at doing this when you do put her back to bed.

she outgrew the cot. she is the size of her 4yr old sister. i dont let her downstairs after bedtime. her room is gated as otherwise she will go and wake her sister up in the next room. the only time she will be taken out of room is if i have to strip the bed, then she will go into my bedroom whilst i'm cleaning her bed and remaking it. we leave the landing light on as she screams if we turn it off (scared of the dark). she only has a few toys in her room, as most are kept in her sister bedroom (its larger). she just seems very awake all the time. if she hears me or dh get up to use the loo at night she calls out to us and we have to ignore her or tell her to go to bed.

So the 3 hours or so that she's awake she's alone in her room? Are you sure she doesn't sleep a little or are you also awake for the whole time? Is she up then playing with her toys etc. in her room? If so, why is that different to when she was in her cot in terms of your being able to ignore it and go back to sleep yourself? Or is she now crying and asking for your attention?

I think you do need to get this sorted out or at least get some advice. It may be that she just doesn't need much sleep but I'm sure there must be a way for her to at least do all her sleeping in one block.

Is it possible to put her to bed later? Neither of our ds's need much sleep so we just put their bedtimes back. Ds1 goes to bed at about 9.30- 10pm while ds2 is usually still awake at 11pm. The downside is that you don't get much child-free time.

i could try that, my my other daughter needs loads of sleep, so will have a strp if she has to go to bed later than her baby sister.

I know you said earlier that putting her to bed later didn't change her sleep patterns, but does it mean she might sleep more solid hours in a row?

havent trid lately, but it may be worth another go. will do it mid week when dd1 is really tired after nusrsey and hopefully wont notice her sister is up later.

Good luck then misdee. Keep us posted as to how it goes?

Hi Misdee. My dd is 20mths so I can relate to your DD's age group. She goes to bed about 7-7.30pm and wakes up around 7.30-8am. So my questions are: what is a typical day's food and what are you doing about the eczema?

days food.

cereal or toast for breakfast.
lunch is usually sandwich and yoghurt/fruit.
dinner is whatever we are having, usually meat and veg, or rice dish. she will play with (not actually eat a yoghurt after this). in between meals she may pinch a few crisps of her dad or sister, and maybe half a milky way as well. she doesnt drink much juice, in fact hardly touches it, as she has milk as her main drink. her meals are small and hardly touched. she does have reflux which makes meak times hard.

with regards to the ezcema, she has the same treatment as her older sister. oilatum in the bath, dermol500 lotion and occasional hydrocortisone cream. i am well practised in keeping ezcema ubnder control and am doing well with dd2, no infections (yet), her nails are trimmed regulary and she now fits into the mitten pj's i have so she cant scratch.

i have only just put her to bed so will let you now in the morning how she is doing.

well that was a bit better. went down just before half eight. woke up just after 12, screamed for a bit, hit me when i went in to settle her, but was back asleep by 1. woke up at about 5am.

I'm sorry Misdee, I read Strangerthanfiction's DD's age of 19mths and stupidly I then thought your DD was 19mths so I don't know her age. So how old is she, how much milk is she drinking and when and when does she have a dirty nappy?

I've just read title of thread and that's why I had the impression your DD was same age as my DD. Just waiting for your reply to my milk and nappy query.

she is 20months. she has about 2 bottles of milk, one morning, one before bed, a day, has dirty nappies, once in the morning and usually one before bed.

I am trying to work out why DD is waking up: is it hunger, moving bowels, itchy skin, bedclothes too hot/heavy or light or habit?
Food/Hunger
You said that DD's main drink is milk and that she doesn't eat very much and I wondered how much milk she drinks in case that puts her off her food and is she hungry for more solid food and this is waking her up? It sounds like you have the same routine with food as I have with my DD as this is a typical day:
8am sippy cup of milk, one slice toast with butter/marmite and 1 banana.
12 noon lunch: cheese on toast, fruit/yoghurt, water to drink
sleep 1-2.30pm
3pm sippy cup of milk
5pm fish/meat, veg, fruit/yog, water to drink
Bed 7-7.30pm.
I did introduce biscuit at 3pm milk time and she then played with 5pm supper and ended up not eating v.much.So stopped biscuit unless its the weekend and need her to go longer until a later supper say at 6pm because we are out.
When you say that she doesn't eat very much, are you worried about this?
Eczema
I asked you about the eczema as my DS of 7mths has it and he would wake up at all hours. However, it is now under control as I saw a dermatologist and was told to do this:
AM bath in warm (not v.warm or hot as bad for eczema) water & Oilatum, do not use a sponge as carries bacteria and use wash cloth that gets boiled or cotton wool which gets thrown.Was told to use Acqueous cream ONLY to wash him with both on skin and scalp and absolutely no shampoo. Rub the Acqueous cream all over skin to clean and remove debris. Apply steroid cream if needed and if clear, use Diprobase. Must wait one hour at least before applying Diprobase after Steroid cream.
mid morning: apply Diprobase.
mid afternoon: Apply Diprobase.
Before bed: Bath routine.
Moving bowels
Looks like DD has good routine so this is not an issue.
Bed clothes
Did you ever use a grobag and if so, was she comfortable in this and therefore slept through?
Habit
What could be nicer than waking up and wanting comfort and guess what? You give a yell and a cry and your favourite person, Mummy, comes in and gives you a cuddle and if the crying persists, she even gets into bed with you and doesn't go back to Daddy!!!
This is what I would try:

1. Cut out milky way snack and crisps during the day so that she will eat more of lunch or supper which is more nutritious, might feel fuller and get a better night's sleep
2. Can you increase her physical activity or mental stimulation so that she will need more sleep?
3. If she does wake up, I would change her nappy if wet in a dark or semi dark room and not make eye contact.

You mentioned reflux. Is this painful/uncomfortable like indigestion and is it worse when lying down? Are there foods to aviod with this condition? How was the move from cot to bed? Was she happy about it?
When reading back on this message I feel as though I am teaching you to suck eggs but I really want to help if I can. And I put the eczema routine in for those with children who are suffering as the doctor's programme has helped me and I would like it to help others.
Good luck. Am thinking of you as sleep deprivation is just awful.

the choccie/crisps like i say she doesnt have often, and do try to keep down as want her to eat her meals. but she has never been one for eating (surprisingly she weighs 16kg). i have bought the issue up with the HV but they dismiss it as some kids just dont need much food. the reflux, altho it doesnt appear to bother her, i sometimes wonder if she is suffering a heartburn type pain at night. she has infant gaviscon to take, but as this has only been the last week we have had it we wont see a marked improvement just yet (she was sick badly yesterday).

ezcema is pretty much under control. I think it may be more habit now, the waking, but she has never been one for sleep. last night was pretty good. she managed a 5hr stretch without waking, but woke full of beans and ready to play. tried to get her back to sleep, kept taking her back to her bed, but she juswt was ready to play.

Poor you, misdee, you must be so exhausted even after a relatively good night. I reckon then last night you probably only got 6 hours sleep yourself? I'm amazed you've gone on this long with it and not collapsed!

To be honest I really think you should see a sleep councillor as this is a very complex problem that I don't think can be resolved that easily. I still can't help but think that the amount of sleep your dd gets isn't enough and I do know that all the sleep experts think that not enough sleep leads to worse sleep. When my dd has a few bad nights she also sleeps badly in the day and then worse the next night until she eventually gets back into the right pattern again.

the thing is. as my other dd has had really bad ezcema since birth, for over 4yrs now i have never gotton much sleep. i think my body has adjusted now. some days i feel more tired than others but can usually squeeze in a nap myself at some point (usually say i'm going to clean up upstairs and grab an hour lol)

Wondering how you are doing tonight?

well last night was terrible. she was up at 2am. took ages to settle her back down. she just kept screaming at me, or hitting me. then she was fully awake at 6am. think she has had about 7 full hours worth of sleep.

Oh, poor you. That sounds really awful. What do you think it's about? Do you think she's really not tired or is there some other problem or psychological or rebellious thing at the bottom of it? Would she like to sleep with you? I know it's not ideal but if it meant you got some sleep and she was a bit happier at night?