Overtired 8 month old terrible sleeper, help needed please!

[Mamabear15]

Hi all, I'd be really grateful if anyone has any suggestions as to how I can improve the sleeping habits of my almost 8 month old boy. He has always been a particularly bad napper, it is a nightmare to get him to nap as he fights it so much, and when he finally does fall asleep it is only ever for 30-45mins max. I think the reason for this is because he is overtired, after much googling the only advice I have found is "you need to put him down earlier,before he gets overtired", but this is IMPOSSIBLE. He doesn't show any of the typical sleepy cues (yes I know them all), he just seems to always be overtired. So I've tried going by the clock too but whether I put him down after 1.5 hours or 3 hours or anything in between, the result is always the same - fighting sleep like crazy, crying, and eventually falling asleep for 30-45mins. I also have to bounce/rock him a lot first to calm him down before putting him in his cot. I have tried to get rid of the bouncing/rocking but he becomes too hysterical and would never fall asleep in a million years. Night tine is a slightly different story. He always gives in his cot fully awake after his last feed, he then whinges/fusses a bit but falls asleep on his own within about 20mins. Sometimes he sleeps well only waking up twice in the night to feed, but most of the time he wakes up much more frequently (but not to feed) and again, I think this is down to his overtiredness not allowing him to sleep soundly. So does anyone have any advice as to how I can break this overtiredness cycle? He already goes to bed early (around 6pm) so I don't think an earlier bedtime is an option. Neither is a later bedtime, he is always exhausted by tea tinme. I'm sure if he took better daytime naps the situation would improve but I've been trying for months to get him to nap better and nothing works! Can anyone suggest anything? Thanks.

I would try to established a dummy and comforter toy to associate both with sleep (ie only used at sleep time).

I would also do all settling in the cot. I would butt the cot up to the side of my bed so that I could lie eye-to-eye with baby and lean over into the cot to shush and settle. There will be lots of crying at first, but stopping the rocking will help in the long term.

I agree with fate. We had the cot butted up to the bed at that point and one of us would lie with DS shushing etc. We also have dummy, comforter and white noise. For daytime naps I carry him upstairs, we close the curtains, give him his dummy etc and put him down. At the moment we are having issues with daytime naps as in the cries when he goes in his cot (so we have ended up co napping!) but for our DS night time sleep is directly influenced by daytime naps. We did make ourselves housebound for a period while we got them established too.

I also find that a quiet period of reading books beforehand helps too.

Many thanks for your reply! He does already have a dummy and a comfort blanket toy thing, but he tends to just shake it and fling it around! The dummy does calm him but he keeps spitting it out as he knows he will get sleepy by sucking on it and he seems to do everything in his power to NOT go to sleep.

I will try to do all settling in the cot but he honestly goes so hyperactive and crazy that it seems like he will never go to sleep. Unfortunately there is no room in our bedroom for the cot so I can't lie next to him.

I just don't know why he can self-settle at night but not for naps?

He's probably exhausted by bedtime.

Do you have a chest of drawers in your bedroom? Definitely worth taking the drawers out of your room and putting them wherever the cot currently is. And putting the cot in the space you create by removing your chest of drawers.

For your sanity, having baby nearby to settle is much better for the sake of your own sleep.

A good daytime sleep/feed routine works wonders for over-tiredness. I would aim for one feed and one nap every 2.5 hours throughout the day. If it can take up to 45-30 minutes, then factor this into the routine. So something like

• Wake
• Feed (full feed upon waking)
• Activity (aim for awake time of 90 minutes including settling to sleep time. So that means start settling back to sleep 45 minutes after waking)
• Settling to sleep (45 minutes)
• Sleep (aim for at least 30 minutes, but leave baby to wake naturally)

This is a version of EASY on a 2 1/2 hour repeated daily structure:

E - Eat (15 minutes)
A - Activity (90 minutes)
S - Sleep (45 minutes)
Y - You time (while baby sleeps)

I think you need a nap routine. Presumably at night you do pjs, milk, teeth, book and bed or something that resembles a routine. It helps to mimic this in the day too.

I'd go for two naps and stick to up to bedroom, nappy change, Gro bag, curtains closed, book, cuddle and bed. As fate suggested I'd only settle in the cot, few words.

Many thanks for the suggestions. For the past few weeks I have been really trying hard to follow an "age appropriate" routine - for an 8 month old I am under the impression that it should consist of a morning nap, early afternoon nap, late afternoon nap, 3 small meals a day (he enjoys food) plus breastfeeding. And to be honest, if is working in the sense that things are happening at roughly the same tines every day, but if is most definitely NOT working in the sense that he doesn't sleep long enough for the naps and so spends all day being overtired. I don't know how to change things. Fate, thanks for the routine suggestion but if we followed a 2.5hour EASY, he would be done with his 3rd nap by early afternoon as he wakes up at 6am and only naps 30mins, before we started solids we probably were doing something similar and he would sometimes have a 4th nap, but even then he was still overtired. On a good day our routine looks something like this:

6am -wake up (but I don't get him up properly until 6.30)
7.15 - breakfast
8.30 - nap for 30-45mins
10.30 - breastfeed
11.45 - lunch
12.30 - nap for 30-45mins
2.30 - breastfeed
4.00 - nap for 30 mins
4.45 - dinner
5.30 - bath (used to leave it til 6 but he is too tired by this time and gets hysterical)
6.00 - breastfeed
6.30 - asleep

He then usually sleeps ok til about 11 or midnight and usually then wakes up every 1-2 hours for the rest of the night, but I don't feed him until about 3 am and then again at 5am (if I don't feed him then he's awake for the day). Sometimes he does sleep through until 3 or 4 am and this is why I don't feed him earlier than that, because I know he isn't hungry before this time.

Any ideas? If I cut his awake times I don't see how we would get through the day with only 3 naps and also how would meals fit in as we'd have to do the 2nd nap before lunchtime? We do have a short nap routine (nappy change, close curtains, soothing music) but can't really do much more than this as he is always in a state by this point due to the overtiredness.

Cat napping is tricky. Have a read here on extending naps www.mybabysleepguide.com/2009/02/how-to-extend-short-nap.html

Also see here for average/ideal sleep patterns www.mybabysleepguide.com/2013/02/average-sleep-charts-by-age.html

Thanks for the links. I do try to extend his naps by sitting by the cot when I know he is going to wake and then the second he stirs I put my hands on him and pat/jiggle/stroke - occasionally it does work and I can get another half an hour or so out of him but usually it doesn't work. Yeah, according to the chart on ideal sleep patterns he is getting nowhere near enough daytime sleep for his age. No clue on how to rectify it though!

Sorry, no advice op, but my ds is exactly the same as you have described. He's now 10mo. He started like your ds when he was 4 mo.

I have upped his solids in the day as much as poss, offering water and snacks too. He's dropped down to 3 bottles and I have put his cot in our room right next to the bed. For his naps he refuses to go in the cot so I will hold him to sleep and keep putting him down on his bean bag, he will wake up still tired but I pick him up, get him back to sleep and put him down again. I know that's bad but he gets so tired and desperately needs the sleep. This seems to have helped slightly very slightly. I have took him to the gp a few times as he wakes up constantly through the night to rule out ear infections etc, the gp has now said that as his sleep is so bad (after telling her what happens on an average night) she has referred us to a specialist for 'further advice and support'. God knows what they will tell me there though.

Thanks for sharing zombie. Yeah I'm sure my lo will still be the same at 10months, desperately trying to improve things now though as I go back to work in a couple of months! Hope things improve for you too.

Any ideas? If I cut his awake times I don't see how we would get through the day with only 3 naps

Yes, more naps.

What is making you think that you may only allow your LO to sleep 3 times a day?

If your baby is having short naps then yes, work to extend them. Also ensure enough sleep by making them more frequent.

if we followed a 2.5hour EASY, he would be done with his 3rd nap by early afternoon

Again, what makes you think three cycles are all you allow? You can do as many cycles as needed.

Less awake time = more asleep time.

I know that sounds very simplistic, but it is as simple as that. Baby needs more sleep so therefore needs to be awake less. If baby is having short naps then two things are needed to ensure more sleep:
(1) Extend naps
(2) More frequent naps

Thank you fate, I appreciate your advice. The only reason I think I can only do 3 naps is because up until a few weeks ago we were doing something similar to what you are suggesting, i.e more frequent naps and he was finishing his 3rd nap early afternoon, however it became more and more difficult and eventually was impossible to get him to take a 4th nap, no matter what time we tried for it. So he always ended up being awake waaaay too long before bed. That's why I thought that if only 3 naps were going to happen, then they would need to be more spaced out. I also thought that 3 naps would be more normal for a baby of his age, and indeed he should at some point be dropping to just 2 naps. But clearly it's not working. But believe me, up until recently I was always trying for a 4th nap but it just was never happening, I don't know why not

Hi my 9 month old has been on 2 naps a day for about 2 months or so. 3 is ok but 2 is the usual pattern at this age! She has about an hour in the morning (I wake her) then 2 in the afternoon and sleeps 11-12 hours at night.
I've never had a nap schedule but I do feed to sleep so she's always dropped off at her mid morning and afternoon bottle.
If mine doesn't sleep (and it does happen) I just get on with the day and perhaps offer an extra bottle a bit later if she's grumpy. I think by not trying too hard to get her to sleep she's developed her own pattern. It may not be the same for you but I do think you should try not to worry and just let him decide rather than rocking etc. Yes they do get grumpy but when they're ready they just go! Another thing is sometimes if she hasn't slept I stick her in the buggy and go for a walk and that sends her off X

Have you tried white noise? That seemed to help DS a lot, as did sleeping on his side or tummy. If he was overtired I did whatever I had to to get him to nap (car, pushchair, sling). For the last catnap I used to always have to sling him or drive.

Thank you jw35, yes I realise that 2 naps is normal at this age but the problem is he just doesn't sleep long enough to last a whole day with only 2. Even 3 isn't enough for him but he won't take any more. I would love for him to just get on with it and do what he wants, but honestly, he would not sleep at all during the day if I did that and he gets soooo hysterical and wired. He never falls asleep feeding either. Yeah I used to go for a walk with the buggy sometimes and that sent him off, but that's stopped working now!! Same for car rides. It's all so frustrating, I can see he's knackered but he has such a hard time getting to sleep and then staying asleep, it seems this overtiredness cycle is impossible to break.

Thanks LDW, yes I have tried white noise but it seemed to make him more awake if anything?! Yes he also has started sleeping on his side, but another problem is that when I put him down he keeps himself awake by rolling over and frantically kicking his legs!

Thanks for your replies.

I also thought that 3 naps would be more normal for a baby of his age

Hmm, tough one. Yes, 3 naps are normal. At 8 months I would want two 1.5h-2h naps (9am and 1pm) plus one 30 minute catnap (early evening - 5pm ish).

However that only works if the am and pm naps are long. They aren't for your LO.

Strikes me like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If your LOs preference is for short naps and you are struggling to extend nap length. Then realistically there are only two alternate outcomes: over-tiredness or have more naps. Personally I would return to an EASY cycle of frequent naps if you anent successful in extending nap lengths.

More sleep promotes better sleep.

You might find that if you rid over-tiredness by getting more sleep any possible way you can, that naps and awake/happy times extend naturally.

Thanks for the advice. I will try for more naps again and see how it goes. Not sure how I will ever get out of the house for errands or anything but hey ho!

It won't be forever.

Yeah that's what I have to keep telling myself! Thanks.

Personally I don't think that 2 naps is the usual pattern at this age. There is huge variation between children's development, needs and systems at that age and I think you just need to try and find whatever works for you - if that's 4 naps a day then that perfectly normal too!! FWIW, my 24-mth old still generally has 2 naps a day and is a great nighttime sleeper.

I'm afraid I don't have much practical advice though, other than tweling you that some times babies just do get better (seemingly) on their own at this kind of thing - mine suddenly went from waking every 2-3 hours at that age to mostly sleeping through overnight, and we didn't start doing anything differently - I think a combination of of factors, some of which weren't obvious to us, suddenly kicked in. It was bloody brilliant. I think about 25% of good nighttime sleep is what you do to help your baby learn good sleep habits - the rest is luck/genes/temperament. Good luck and chin up.

Hi Op just wondering how you were getting on with your Ds? My 6 month old sounds very.similar, I'm at the end of my tether with his naps. 2, sometimes 3 30 min sleeps a day is the best I can hope for, all either in the sling, car or whilst feeding. Yesterday was the worst so far, he had 3 20 min naps all day, then up all evening, a fairly long sleep from about 9- midnight then awake multiple times from 1am.
I'm at a loss to know what to try next, my daughter was.the same so I kind of feel like it's inevitable...
I've had one night of no waking in 6 months, never to be repeated I suspect.

Hi! Things are pretty much the same to be honest - I've tried persuading him to have more naps but he just will not do it - it seems like once he's had a total of 1.5-2 hours worth of naps in a day, he will not have any more, no matter what time the last nap finished. For example, the other day he had 3 x 30min naps, the last of which finished around 2pm. I thought he could then have another late afternoon one, but no, he wouldn't do it and was so overtired by bedtime. And yesterday, he took 2 naps - amazingly a 1hr 15min nap in the morning (but I had to step in several times with patting and stroking etc) and then a 45min one around lunchtime, it finished around 1.30pm. I thought great, if he has a late afternoon one that's a decent day's worth of naps- but again, I couldn't get him down for a 3rd one! I'm doing my best but it is so difficult.

His night wakings seem to be related to him rolling over at the moment. He always goes to sleep on his side now, but rolls over on to his stomach soon after falling asleep. He's fine then until about midnight-ish, then he wakes up crying. When I go in he always looks uncomfortable and unhappy to be on his stomach - he can roll back but not as easily and I suppose in the middle of the night he is just too sleepy to do it. So I put him back on his side and he goes back to sleep - but then the exact same thing happens an hour later! And this continues every hour for the rest of the night, I do have to feed him too though. But I am hoping he will get used to / grow out of the rolling issues.

You say your daughter was the same - how old is she now? How long was it before things improved with her?

I'm kind of resigning myself to the fact that my ds will just be like this until he's school age!

Oh he sounds so much like my ds...hate to tell you this but my daughter wasn't much better until at least a year, 18 months, then her sleep got brilliant as soon as she was at school. She's still an early riser, but will just get herself up and play until her gro clock says it's time to get up.

I hate how ds not sleeping makes me so grumpy and miserable, I've just seen a friend.for lunch and ds has slept for a grand total of 45 mins all day. All I can think about is how horrible a night were going to have and I've been in such a mood all day as he's not had enough sleep.

I think daytime naps improved when dd was walking/cruising and using more energy too. They say it's a sign of a highly intelligent child, not sleeping... Or more likely just a bloody obstinate one

Hi,
My ds is/was exactly the same overnight, 8 months and never fewer than 2 wake ups, normally 3/4 and the less sleep he has in the day the more frequently he's up in the evening, if he misses a nap he is up 45 mins after bedtime on the dot!

Daytime naps improved for us with the following things (tho could also have been complete chance!)

White noise (sleepy sounds app on phone) I used it to calm him down when in the buggy or left it playing to drown out daytime noise. My app also has lullabies which were good at calming too.

Ewan the dream sheep, he now hugs him to go to sleep, not the most practical of comforters but hey if it works it works!!

Grobag sleepsuit, he finds it more difficult to roll when all zipped up and the covers don't get pushed off.

Same story/ routine for every nap/sleep in the house. We read the very hungry caterpillar.....8 hundred times a week.

Hope it gets better for you, I'm not too sure what is normal for an 8 month old but my lo has a long morning nap of 1 1/2 hours at 9:30 then maybe an hour 2ish hours after he wakes followed by a third catnap of 30/45 mins at around 4:30, seems to work for us tho night feeds means I don't get much sleep at night! Also when lo was around 4 months he completely refused to nap so I planned out what times I thought he should nap then made sure he was in the sling or prams so he got used to those times, meant A LOT of walking in the rain in a zombie like state but he does yawn almost like clockwork at those times now. Good luck xxx