3 weeks to get 8 mo sleeping in cot - help!

[Monkeybrain10]

I have an operation in 3 weeks so need my 8 mo ds to sleep in his own bed! He has never slept well. he will sleep for 30 mins in his cot around 7.30-8 pm after supper bath story booby , then he shreaks the house down. After this, any attempt to return him to his cot (awake or fast asleep ) result in him instantly going rigid, going bright red , shreaking and waving his arms and legs around wildly!
We've tried shush and Pat, lullabies, leaving the room , staying in the room, cuddle back to sleep (then repeat above!) None of which have worked.
The only way we can get him to sleep is by having him with us in the Sitting room all evening (which is a pain cause he won't even sleep in his chair -- he's with us on the sofa so we have to constantly take it in turns to do anything!!)? Then he comes to bed with me. Even then he still wakes up around 3 times to feed....but at least he sleeps a bit!
Personally I think he shows many signs of being over tired (me too!) But he is actually a very cheery chap...so much so that people always comment on it.

So in 3 weeks dp will be in charge for a few nights . Neither of us think he should Co sleep with ds as he's a very heavy sleeper who squashes me in the night! I guess if I'm not there it might not be so bad (boobies out of sight out of mind) but I will definitely need a few days without baby in bed post op....and hopefully once he's in his cot he'll stay there!
Any advice please?
I appreciate we've probably made a rod for our own backs by Co sleeping but this only happened when he was ill a couple of months ago and was inconsolable.
Thanks :-)

I have written and deletes three replies to your post now, each reply I have deleted because I feel I am being too brutal and not supportive enough.

I shall try again.

You need to be the parent here, not a pushover.

Your baby needs a proper bedtime now. Being up until late with Mum and Dad is fine for continentals who have siestas, but this doesn't appear to be the lifestyle you are after (given that you do attempt to put him to bed at a reasonable time).

You've tried everything and "nothing works". I don't believe this. I believe you have tried everything and I understand that you must be very, very frustrated because these things take such a lot of perseverance and effort.

But if you and your DH make a decision and stick to it - not giving up and bringing him downstairs, then it will work. It doesn't really matter which option you choose - you have tried them all so must know them already. Shush pat, gradual withdrawal, no cry, controlled crying, Cry it out... and so on.

You just need to pick one and stick with it until it works. Giving up a technique and trying something completely different next time is very confusing and must leave your son spinning not sure what he is supposed to be doing. Plus he always ends up getting what he wants anyway, so he just needs to keep on crying and (in his mind) all will be well.

You need to un-teach him this so that he realises all will be well and he will be better, less tired, if he sleeps in his cot.

It will be hard work.
He will get very upset and angry with you.
It may take a long time (some methods mentioned will take longer than the 3 weeks you have).

But if you pick one method, are consistent and stick with it - it will work.

Good luck

Thanks fatedestiny. I appreciate your Advice. I think our biggest problem is that we're agreed we don't want to cry it out. We all find his crying too distressing and it seems to go against nature to not comfort a crying baby.
I forgot to add that I have also tried a dummy (pulled out and thrown away!) And a bottle of formula before bed...again...made no difference at all.
Tbh the most frustrating thing is the conflicting advice out there. Everyone I have spoken to says to just do what works best (that is Co sleeping for us at the moment ) but we're about to have a week when that won't work so maybe I can just let the boys go cold turkey and have a nice sleep in my hospital bed - ha ha!
He managed to do an hour and a half in the cot last night (3 x 30 mins with comforting/booby in between ) But I was so tired that I gave in again In the middle of the night.
For those who say to take it in turns with dp - that's a no go as he has no patience at all so gives up after about 3 mins of screaming and quite frankly I don't have the energy to fight with both of them!!

If it feels unnatural for you not to comfort a crying baby (and I agree), then pick up/put down could work for you. Agree with fate you need to stick to it and make a rule that he will not go in your bed again. What happens for nap time? Could he be overtired at the time you are putting him down (at that age mine used to be desperate to go to bed at 7ish). No more feeding to sleep and make a rule about how you are feeding him at night. Eg if he is feeding well throughout the day, does he really need feeding 3 times at night? Many babies of this age are down to one night feed.

Thanks. nap wise he's rubbish...again will only nap if on someone (usually me post feed) and occasionally I can do a transfer to Cot for half an hour then he wakes up and appears to panic and shreak the house down.
Re: getting him back to sleep. The big issue is that he just won't be comforted unless he's held (otherwise he literally ends up purple with snot bubbles coming out of his nose!) And even then he will wake up the moment he is placed in his cot even if fast asleep (it's very clever really!).
Arghhh. ..tearing hair out. Thing is that we don't even have room for a chair in his nursery so standing comforting him for 20 mins to get him back to sleep every half hour is bloody knackering!! (Hence taking the easy life option)
Re night feeds - he eats well but still bf . He does feed in the night (rather than comfort suckling) which makes me think he's actually hungry or thirsty. When I try (fairly often) to get him back to sleep without boob - sometimes he will, but last night for example, he just went mad and was desperate for it so I gave in because he was in such a state.
wow - who are these amazing sleep through the night babies?!!

I don't think it's a one size fits all approach. Yes you need perseverance and discipline, but how do you know which approach to persevere and be disciplined with? 'Fatedestiny', how did you pick the right approach for your little one?

'monkeybrain10', I feel your frustration! Feel like I have done everything, but every method seems to result in DS being hysterically upset and/or waking himself up, which is what I am trying to avoid!

I'm not saying they sleep through the night (whatever your definition of that is) just that many babies are down to one feed at this stage! All mine were. I used ssshhh pat to help them to self settle and then if needed pick up put down from time to time if they were extremely difficult to resettle at night. I also tried to get regular daytime naps (could be in sling, buggy or cot) and regular bedtime routine - going to bed after bath and feed.

If your baby has always needed boob to sleep day or night then another adult may need to help you to do whatever needed to get him to sleep initially as the baby will associate you with BF to sleep. Either DP mans up realises that some stamina is needed, or another friend/relative could step in?

I don't think fate was arguing for a one size fits all approach, just that if you choose an approach you need that use that same approach day and night for ime at least 2 weeks to say 'it hasn't worked'. FWIW, mine were sshh patted to sleep for around 2 months until they realised they could just fall asleep themselves. Sometimes it took one or two hours. Sometimes it took 20 mins. They sometimes cried on and off during that time and I picked up if needed, just put back down while still awake. If they were ill sometimes they went backwards a bit and needed ssshhing to sleep again.

The reason why these sleep consultants work is because they tell you an approach to pick and coach/support you to stick with it. For babies 6 months + habits take longer to change. It won't be easy but it sounds like you want things to be different.

I don't think it's a one size fits all approach. Yes you need perseverance and discipline, but how do you know which approach to persevere and be disciplined with?

"One size fits all" suggests I am advocating one particular sleep method and saying "this will work for everyone". Have you read my post? This is not what I am saying at all.

There are lots of different sleep solutions and they will all work with perseverance. They will not all be right for everyone though. Some will prefer PUPD, or NCSS, or CC, or CIO, or SP (sorry for all the acronyms, the point of this post isn't to explain the different sleep solutions since the OP knows them).

What I am saying is that each family needs to pick the one technique that works for them. Then stick to it. Staying using the same method without giving up or deviating until it finally works. Because if you stick with it for long enough without giving up, whatever technique you choose will work.

but every method seems to result in DS being hysterically upset and/or waking himself up

There is the NCSS (No Cry Sleep Solution). I am not a fan because it takes ageeesssss to work. Months and months and months of really slow, gradual changes so for a long, long time it does not solve anything you just carry on what you are doing - but with minuscule, minute changes each week.

But it means that you have no more crying that you have at the moment, so if that is what you want there is an option.

Because if you stick with it for long enough without giving up, whatever technique you choose will work

I think this is probably right and this is why sleep consultants get paid the big bucks :)

Re crying, I have never used CC for any of mine. Some crying has to be expected - they are communicating with you. They want you to BF them to sleep. You want them to sleep by themselves. This will make both of you cry .

He's not going to stop screaming to be bf unless you stop giving it to him, sadly. You really need to wean him off night feeds and your DP has to get used to getting up and dealing with it.

There is also a massive difference between baby crying and being comforted constantly (by shushing and patting and staying constantly y their side with them, for example), and a baby being left to cry.

Of course there will be crying. Because baby wants to do one thing and you want baby to do something else (as junior just said). Babies do cry, it is the only way to tell you they are cross. A crying baby can be comforted and still taught how to sleep well.

Thanks all. The thing I take solace in is the fact that if this were easy there would be no need for a sleep forum! I know people who've had one child who slept well and one that didn't. So I guess it's a combo of luck, personality , circumstance (like maybe if I had a nice big nursery with a chair I might be more inclined to spend hours and hours shush ing and patting) and method choice. I love the idea of getting other people in to help but I don't have that luxury.
I will keep on trying to persuade him his cot is not the enemy and Tbh when I have the op he can't be in bed with me so we'll all have to go cold turkey! :-)

Nothing wrong with going cold turkey Monkey

Cry It Out is actually the fastest and most effective way to resolve it. I had the situation with DC1 that I was 7 months pregnant with DC2 and needed her to start self settling to I went cold turkey with CIO. It took 3 days for her to learn to sleep by herself and it made a huge positive difference to her well being and happiness.

Going through it for those three days was horrendous though. But after 3 days, well I wished I'd have done it sooner.

With DC2, DC3 and DC4 - well I just didn't make the same mistakes again so they slept well from birth.

I don't think it's a one size fits all approach. Yes you need perseverance and discipline, but how do you know which approach to persevere and be disciplined with?

What I meant by this is that each baby has an a unique temperament. Their response to various methods will be entirely a function of their personality. So obviously every baby is going to pose a challenge in terms of sleep training, but there is a continuum of how babies respond. You need to trial various methods to ascertain which method works with their temperament. For instance, you read all the books, you think pick up put down sounDS like a good approach. However, your baby cries hysterically. You think we'll I must persevere. You do so, end up with a constantly hysterical and aggravated baby. At what point, do you accept a method does not work and how do you deal with the upset you've caused your baby in the process.

If you carried on with pick up put down for long enough, it would eventually work. You would not have a baby screaming hysterically two years down the line after 700+ days of doing this consistently. Extreme example, but you see my point.

I understand what you are saying though kmini. Individual babies are more suited to some techniques over others. Also, and perhaps more important, individual parents will be more receptive to certain techniques to others.

A parent does need to know about the sleep solutions options out there, or work out their own (because you don't need a book to know your baby best). Once armed with the options, it really is just a case of picking one and sticking to it. The OP said she already knew the sleep training techniques, which is why I wasn't explaining any here.

All a sleep consultant does is talk a parent through the various sleep training techniques, discuses the pros and cons, the likely difficulties and how they sit with the parenting style, and so on. All this research can be done online yourself (or indeed by asking on Mumsnet). It is then just a case of picking the one that suits you and your baby the best and sticking with it all the time until it works - not chopping and changing.

OP is there any mileage in getting one of those side cot things that attach to the side of your bed but give them their own space to sleep as well?

If you are pushed for time and don't want to rush it then that might be a solution while you're away?

I agree with the pps that say each baby is different. DD1 took a dummy and slept happily in her own room from 6 months. DD2 is still in with us at 11 months (spent her first full night for months in her cot last night).

We're transitioning now into getting her in her cot all night then getting her in her own room. She sleeps better on her front. I was cuddling her to sleep but she's now so wriggly I thought I'd put her in her cot with my hand on her back. To my utter surprise it worked.

Keep trying and good luck.

Er I didn't have a nursery or a comfy chair - no.1 was brought home to a mouldy basement studio flat and 2 and 3 were in our room then siblings room...it is shit and uncomfortable but for me it was worth it....also get DP to bloody help properly! Good luck

Well after attempting to put ds in cot post usual bedtime routine (the half hour which is usually no problem ) I have had two hours of trying and failing to get him to sleep in cot. Started with him springing to life in his usual manic panic type way...hyperventilating and waving arms and legs about. Managed to calm him but he was wide awake. Eventually this turned to screaming......shush pat singing ....nope...ended up hysterical as always to the point that it is downright cruel not to pick him up. So picked up and cuddled but he's wide awake. Calmed, I try to put him down again.. This results in shreaking the house down once more. I end up in tears as Tbh it feels like child cruelty. So I pick up, comfort and bring him downstairs where he plays with a teddy til falling asleep. he went up again at 9...slept for ten mins only....have managed to get him back to sleep with a cuddle (after 15 wasted mins of shush and pat) and he's asleep again in cot.
As for letting them shreak and be incredibly distressed like that for 700 days til you break them. ...there's just no way I could put either of us through that !
thanks all for your opinions and advice. A friend of mine gave me some words of comfort the other day saying "well he won't want to sleep in your bed by the time he's about ten yo - welcome to the world of parenting!"

Agree with Fate. I think the problem is that people give it a few nights, see no improvement and declare it doesn't work, move to something else. I reckon most things work - controlled crying, pupd, etc but some take longer and some babies take longer to respond than others. I read the Baby Whisperer who says there is not a baby that pupd can't work for. I held onto that and though thrre was lots of crying and frustration it worked for dd after a week or so. As promised there was a few days of sleep regression. After each regressiin she got better and better at learning to settle herself she was very spirited (sounds similar to what you describe). I would absolutely not give in. I knew she had to sleep eventually. Before pupd she was crying half the night anywayand ggetting no sleep. I figured she may as well be crying and working towards actually getting some sleep (she was wakung every half an hour and drinking masses of milk).

I think your baby is old enough to learn to sleep and you will need to rwcover from your op. I also think that the longer you leave it, the harder the eventual sleep training will be. (I am sure someone will say 'you never hear of teenagers who can'tfall asleep on their own' but do you really want years of little sleep???)

Ah yes I see that someone has said that!
It really sucks to go through this. I know and have been there. I really realky recommend the baby whisperer. It explains exactly what you do and the reasoning behind it and helps you feel less lost. Good luck and don't despair. Xx

Well so far all the pupd attempts have meant he's slept for ten mins at a time max...I can guarantee we won't be keeping this up for 2 years!!

It wouldn't take 2 years Monkey! I was using a deliberately antagonistically extreme example there - to make a point.

If you pick a method and keep using it, it will work eventually. Some methods do take longer than others.

Did you say you were just going to go for it and do cry it out? That'll work in less than a week

(caveat: Only if you stick with it religiously and don't give up)

I have no real advice but I just wanted to share my experience.
My 9mo still co sleeps occasionally but will stay on her cot most of the time.
She hated her cot and room (very small room) she seemed to associate the cot with being upset.
So every day when she was at her most playful and cheerful I'd put her in the cot with some toys and chat away and play with her. It seemed to help as she didn't seem as stressed when she woke up in there at night.
I also tried to push her in the pram or plan my day that I'd have to drive somewhere when she was due a nap so I didn't feed her to sleep.
I still have to stand and rock her at bed time and will sometimes be rocking her 4 or 5 times a night but it's been a small success for me.
Good luck op

So having done pupd all night resulting in me having a grand total of 1 and a half hours of sleep and ds getting not much more (sleeping for ten mins at a time and waking on the approach to his cot every time)...what now?
Do I let him take longer naps than usual today to catch up? I'm worried he'll just end up having his nighttime sleep in the day now?

Thanks sellmysoulforsleep - yes I've been doing similar re playing in the cot .
Fatedestiny - not a chance of cry it out. I think it's cruel. I will let him cry for a while but he gets so worked up that I think he'd expire if we left him.
God this is depressing - i now have a very subdued baby who is normally super cheerful. :-(