bedtime routine

[Cl]

Seems odd posting again after so long - on the same discussion but with a different problem. I actually came on this thread to ask what I could do to 'train' my nocturnal baby - four months, happy and smiley and quite sleepy in the day - awake and keen to feed all night, but started reading and realised I had quite a common problem. It's interesting though looking back on my last posting here, my dd did eventually go back to sleeping in her cot - just shows that everything's a phase? Think I'll just take comfort from that - though I think I probably did a bit of sleep training - and I can tell you it's harder when they can actually ask for you by name! (and make themselves sick). I feel I should also defend the old sleep training a bit as I'm something of a veteran. It may sound awful but when you've had a bad sleeper you will try anything. We first did it after reading Ferber's book (and having been woken every two/three hours for a feed for ever) when she was about 6 months old. She wasn't left to cry for hours - we went in at reguar intervals to reassure and say goodnight. The first night it took 45 mins, and I admit that most of the time I was sitting outside her room with a watch, crying myself. The second night it took 30 mins and the third night she went down quite happily. I continued to do night feeds for quite some time, but reduced the feed time (as Ferber suggests) by a couple of minutes a night. I've never particularly enjoyed the process of sleep training and we have had to repeat it over the years, but I can say that it works and it made me a better mother, much less snappy and cross and it made my daughter happier in herself because she wasn't exhausted. She certainly doesn't seem damaged in any way by it and is outgoing, bright and very loving. Sleep deprivation as I'm finding out with 4 month old ds (again)is a form of torture - and quite different to a bit of general parental tiredness, which I admit is to be expected. So any advice on what to do with my owl-child would be most welcome. I try to space his daytime feeds and he'll happily go three or four hours in the daytime - doesn't even seem that interested in feeding, but seems to wake up around midnight. Not advocating sleep training him (yet) but any suggestions as to other routine changes I can try appreciated.
PS Apologies for the rambling - lack of sleep. Sad really cos I thought second time around I'd be so much better at this!

Cl, have you read Gina Ford ? Is there something in her book that might be of use ? Bloss tried GF when she had sleeping difficulty with her DS and so did I and we both found it amazingly useful. I know there are enough people on this site who are going to tell you this and that against GF but it is up to you. You do not need to follow her routines but read her chapters on sleep and feeding.

Oh, poor you CL. Sleep deprivation is really, really awful & you have all my sympathy. I was there for months on end & don't know how I survived. Also eventually resorted to sleep training, which was ghastly - but saved my life.
I'm loathe to offer advice as you probably know more than me, given you're on your second. Are you giving ds a feed at 10.30pm? Do you think that might help tide him through for a couple more hours? Is there any way you can try and get him to be more alert & feed more during the day? It almost sounds like he has got his day & night the wrong way around. I'm sure I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, but do you keep everything very quiet and dark at night when feeding?
My gut feeling is that he needs to be more awake during the day. I hope Pupuce sees your post, she often has some good suggestions.
Good luck & loads of sympathy.

Thanks Bugsy !!!
I agree with Bugsy not about the compliment (!) but the awake time and the feed in the evening.If you can describe how his day goes, when he sleeps and eats I can see if I can suggest something.

Cl- hope you're managing to catch a few hours sleep here and there. Sleep deprivation is horrible! My ds was a bit mixed up with day and night for the first few months,both with eating and sleeping. We got the sleeping bit sorted before the eating.
You've probably thought of these things already but these are the things we used to get him to recognise day and night.

Take him outside at midday each day and let sunlight (if there is any) fall on his face for a short time; this is meant to stimulate the pineal gland which helps to set the bodyclock. Doesn't matter if he's asleep it should still work.

Keep a diary for a few days to see if there is any time when baby seems to be more likely to sleep, accept this is baby's night (in our case it was 10pm till 10am). Allow him to sleep at his 'nighttime' for a day then slowly move the goalposts 15min per night until his nighttime matches yours. (takes time and obviously gets a lot worse before it gets better but it worked!) We did this at the beginning at three months and after a couple of weeks his nighttime was 7pm till 7am.

At four months we found putting him in his own room helped (no disturbance from snoring hubby). He always wants to play if there is anyone nearby so once we put him in the cot I sat next to the cot but wouldn't talk to him. (Sort of controlled crying for softies?) When the whinging turned into crying I'd cuddle him then put him down and start again, I progressed to sitting with my back to him. It seemed very wrong to turn my back on an upset baby but he would not (and still won't) sleep if there was any chance of something interesting happening.

HTH a little, in any case I hope you get some sleep soon.

Has anyone ever employed a maternity nurse? Did it work? How much did it cost?!
My son is 3months and I am dying of exhaustion. He won't sleep until 10pm so our evenings are a nightmare. He wakes up at least twice a night (1am and 4am or 2am and 5am) then often around 6-6.30 with wind. He howls if we try to put him down earlier. He is extremely resistant to any kind of routine and is usually very grumpy and difficult in the day and cries at the drop of a hat. He shows no interest in any toys except his mobile, hates to be put down and howls and howls if left on his playgym for more than 10 mins and won't lie on the floor or in a chair at all (except, mysteriously, in the bathroom). Basically, I am nearing the end of my tether. I would like a happier baby which I can put down long enough to make myself a cup of tea, and who goes to bed in the evening so I can eat/talk to my husband/have some kind of life. Right now, I'd remortgage my house for any of the above so if anyone has experienced success by employing a maternity nurse please let me know!

Oh Wells, you do have my sympathy - it sounds exhausting. My boys are nwo 2.5 and 4.5, so those early days memories have faded almost completely, but what you describe does remind me of my eldest son, who was a very 'uncontented' baby, and liked to be cuddled - i.e. 24 hrs a day if possible.

You may find he will settle down a lot in a couple of months, in the meantime ...

I've heard people swear by those electric swing things, that rock the baby, and so give you some peace for a little while. Can you beg, borrow, or steal one of these?

Much of what you describe sounds very normal for a child of this age - not particularly interested in toys, etc. Will he sit happily in a 'bouncy chair' and watch you, say, wash up? How is your back? Some people swear by using a sling and carrying such a baby more or less permanently, to keep him content.

Have you read Gina Ford? I didn't use her routines with my boys (hadn't read it), but many people here do use them, and say they will work for all sorts of different babies.

Sorry no experience of the maternity nurse thing. I just wanted to try and offer you some encouragement, as you sound pretty desperate.

Let us know how you get on!

message withdrawn

Oh Wells I know exactly how you feel! My dd was a high demand baby and rarly out of my arms until she could crawl and then she was into everything.
She too cried at the drop of a hat and never seemed content. I tried everything on the market for wind.

Doesnt it seem as if every other baby you meet it content and placid.
I had visions when I was preggo of taking pub lunches with my little baby curled up asleep in her carseat. Visiting friends and bundle cooing and burping happily.

Instead I all but stopped going out and it always became a disaster with a screaming bundle.

But it does get better! and soon. DD is now 20mths and will quite happily sit for a pub lunch. She goes to bed at 6.30 and rises at 7.30.
Its still hard visiting friends as she is not one to sit happily next to me playing with a doll like some of my friends kids.
I put all this down to personality I dont think shr liked being a baby she was always itching to be on the move never liked to sit or lie.
She crawled at 6mths and walked at 10mths and it got a lot better from then.
Wells youve got a livewire like me and although the first yr will be hard once hes on his feet life will improve!

Why not try a day nursery! Just a couple of morning a week say 9 till 1. Dont feel guilty. You need to rest to get through. Your livewire might like the buzz and extra stimulation.

Just remember next christmas you will look back on this as a distant memory.

Wells1, both my babies were miserable until they were put to sleep on their tummies. I know it is not recommended but it worked for us. R.

My dd also WOULD NOT sleep unless she was on her tummy, but I am loath to suggest that for obvious reasons... She was very clingy for months. I used to put her in the old Baby Bjorn and just get on with my life.

I also used the Gina ford routine which transformed her behaviour and sleeping overnight. She went from being a grizzly, clearly unhappy baby to a very contented, happy little baby. I put it down to feeding her and putting her to bed before she even realised she needed it! Two points about GF though: you'll meet loads of people who criticise it, which can be quite depressing, and you must follow it to the letter or else you may find its more of a hindrance than a help.

Thanks for the support! It's nice to know I'm not enitrely alone - even though every baby I meet seems to sleep better and be more cheerful than my poor boy. He was like this from day one, wouldn't sleep in his hospital cot - screamed his head off all night. It's got so that I'm embarrassed to tell people what he's really like. Someone said 'still feeding every four hours?' in a sympathetic tone. He actually feeds about every 21/2 hours and all evening long from about 6pm but I felt I couldn't say so I just nodded and agreed! I've tried the BabyBjorn thing and it works some of the time, but he's such a big, chubby lad that it kills my back - and no, he isn't the least bit interested in sitting in a bouncy chair and watching me. I read in Penelope Leach how my baby would like nothing better than to watch me peel potatoes - HAH! I have also read Gina Ford and tried it but because he just howls when put down for naps and wakes after ten minutes unless taken for endless walks in his pushchair, it makes me feel even more of a failure. I particularly liked the bit in GF about 'settling your drowsy baby'. I dream of a 'drowsy' baby instead of a dog-tired but yelling one... I have just put him in front of the TV in his chair and his yelling has subsided into very low level grumbling. I take him to a cranial osteopath which doesn't seem to make much difference but I quite like taking him because he seems to be in love with her and gives her his best smiles and wriggling for half an hour. She thinks he's a wonderful, contented, smiling baby and I don't like to disillusion her too much. Funny, isn't it. You start out with rosy visions and high-minded principles but end up with six dummies in the house and the baby in front of the TV. I think I shall think seriously about starting him earlier with a childminder, though, just so I can get some sleep and a bit of life. I shall also try to get hold of one of the swinging chairs and keep my fingers crossed that he'll improve with age.

Wells1, just reading this brought back all sorts of memories. DS sounded just like yours until I read Gina Ford at about 8 weeks. I too was feeding about every 2-2.5 hours in the day and all evening form 6 till bedtime - sometimes until midnight. I know that you have said that you've tried it and I have to say that there were parts of it that made me laugh too. But I actually discovered that part of the crying was overtiredness and part of it hunger. I found that the trick was to stuff DS at each meal ,initially I did use top up bottles but gradually decreased and then stopped them and carried on breastfeeding until 11 months (not as long as some of the mums on mumsnet - but quite long enough for both of us). I found that some of the feeds did take forever (certainly longer than GF's 40 mins) but at least I managed to stretch the intervals between feeds ( I didn't do it all at once just by a bit at a time say 10 mins more each day for a week or two. I resorted to the sling, dancing with him in my arms around the kitchen singing like a complete mad woman, looking at the kitchen cupboard contents, wandering from room to room trying to find something interesting in each of them, playing silly games on the bed with him - absolutely anything to distract him long enough not to cry for his next feed. I also resorted to using a dummy to help him get to sleep - and I always cuddled him to sleep in my arms - and then counted to about 100 very slowly to make sure he was asleep and then tried to put him down without waking him. It did take a lot of perseverance to get the naps sorted, but I took the view that however I got him to sleep if he did sleep he was a changed baby and the method was worth the results. I did however have to have my drinks mainly at naptimes as he needed playing with so much initially- but this did improve with time.
Once he had had a good feed and was full it was easier to get him to sleep and having my evenings back - which happened all at once was a complete revelation. I used infacol regularly for wind but still it was a problem until solids were established and he was sitting well. I used to find that during the day he would sleep and then wake crying - if you followed GF you would leave him to settle but I used to have to go and wind him and cuddle him back to sleep but used the other tricks like not talking just soothing noises etc.
I hope that some of this might help as I fell a bit like i'm rambling here - but your initial message just sounded so familiar.

Wells 1
Just a thought on top of everything else that's been said.
Your son is a bit too young, but if he's still pretty grizzly in a month or so and can hold his head up, try a one of those bouncing things you hang from doorways. Tommy Tippee, I think they are called. That was my lifesaver with my ds. And THEN I could peel the spuds in peace!
Interestingly, having had what I can only describe as the baby from hell for the first year, and such a bad sleeper until about 2, ds is now at 3.5 yrs a really well behaved, well balanced, happy boy - unlike almost ALL his contemporaries!

Hi Wells 1,
Sympathies to you. I'm willing to bet my last fiver that he'll improve with age but I know that doesn't really help with getting through it.
A few thoughts- you've probably thought them all already but just in case...:
*Hand him over to someone you trust for a while and get some sleep.
*Clamp him to your breast when you're in bed and sleep
*Try massaging him
*Introduce a bedtime routine even if he shows not the slightest jot of interest in the short-term- e.g.bath, massage, cuddles, songs/story, bed.
*Talk to your health visitor
*Know that things often get better around 3/4 months
*Look at your expectations- babies just aren't as you imagine they will be during rose-tinted pre-children and pregnancy daydreams, I've found. Mine are far more wonderful and terrible! The reality of motherhood is a terrible shock, I think, and it's difficult to adjust. Allow yourself time to adjust and don't feel it's your fault that things are hard. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes whether you get a placid blob or an angry screamer- don't let anyone persuade you otherwise. It's all normal, though, and things do change and get better for the mums of screamers. Whereas the mums of placidos get a huge shock when toddlerhood comes around!

Message withdrawn

just saw your bit onearly waking advice from GF ... fancy sharing it ?>I think there'd be a lot of grateful families!...
It is certainly true that it gets better as they get older so hang in there. It does drive you mad though when friends say with glee that their baby slept through the night from 4 weeks and naps twice a day etc ... they're the ones who have hairdos and ironed clothes! ho hum. I found that the over shoulder sideways slings worked better than front-loaders and last up to toddler age.. and I had 3 emergency c-sections so sympathise!
there can't be any other major surgery where you're expected to do 24 hr shifts and physical work within a day or so of the op! My youngest is 18 mths now and still wakes in the night but settles quickly so its much better than the zombiefied early days.
take care all!

Just FYI, Wells1, maternity nurses cost £500-£600 a week but they work 24 hours a day. You can get night nurses who come in just at night with the specific aim of encouraging a good sleep routine. I am pretty sure they are a but cheaper but any large-ish nanny agency should be able to help.

Wells1, oh yes, I remember bitterly laughing at the cosy world of Penelope Leach - keeping your baby happy by letting him watch you peeling potatoes. If only it was that simple....

Here are some more thoughts to add to the list - worry if they are already duplicating others:

Don't beat yourself up about your son's lack of interest in rattles, mobiles etc. As far as I have seen, most newborn rattles are waved in futile desperation by the parent. My son's earliest toy was my scarf. Try giving your baby some interestingly-textured and brightly-coloured fabric to examine. This might buy you 5 minutes of peace.

To help encourage sleep at night, do get a bedtime rountine going now, even if nothing happens immediately. Bath, drink, etc. Do everything you can to make the ritual different to the day time activity, by your tone of voice, the lighting in the room, how you tidy things away, the way you move, how you say good night.

As others have said, hunger was, without doubt, the primary thing that prevented my sons sleeping when they were tiny babies. You say your son is big and chubby - do you think he has a huge appetite? I don't know if you are breast feeding or using formula but could you speak to your health worker about this? However, I bet you've done this time and time and time again.....

Also, take him out if at all possible, even if it's just round the corner to the local shop or for a look in the garden. Half an hour of fresh air or just a change of scenery definitely helped my two settle. If the weather is foul and there's nowhere to go, show him the insides of some kitchen cupboards or something, and then play with him. I found some extra activity/stimulation before the wind down routine to bed really, really helped. Even if it just kept them awake for a longer stretch in the late afternoon.

Someone said it might be that your son just doesn't like being a baby and will be more contented later. I think this is so true. My oldest son was the easiest, happiest baby round. As the years went by, he resisted every move that left his babyhood behind and became the toddler from hell. I just daren't tell you how late we said goodbye to some things! he loved being fed by spoon, loved wearing nappies, loved having his bottom wiped, loved his cot, loved being carried everywhere. At 7 years old and weighing in at well over 4 stone, he still asks me to carry him upstairs to bed - though he knows I can't.

My hair tearing out phase happened when he was a toddler!!

I hope things get easier for you soon. If you go down the maternity nurse/child carer route, and give yourself a few hours break, I hope it works out. Sounds like a very sane idea to me.

Wells1, it's amazing how quickly the memory fades of those early hellish months! But rest assured, you are not alone in your experiences, and I know I felt such a failure too, thinking every other mother was 100 times better than me and worrying over everything. But now I feel like an old hand with a 21 month old son, but as he gets older there are new challenges to face, of course.

I was lucky enough to have a boss who employed Gina Ford and could recommend her first-hand to me (not that I could afford her in a million years, I was given the book!). It was a big help, and I would definitely go for trying to establish a bedtime routine as early as possible, as has already been mentioned. I didn't get on too well with the feeding schedules, my rosy idea of a contented baby suckling at my breast wasn't how it panned out, but never mind.
Have you tried swaddling your baby? Some hate it, but others love the security it gives them.
Good luck, and it will get better

I employed a mat nurse when my second daughter was 9 weeks and other daughter was 2. I had had no sleep since her birth, no semblance of any routine and she was always so unhappy and of course so were the rest of us. It cost us our summer holiday that year but saved our lives. Within 24 hours our life improved. Make sure you lay down the parameters beforehand - some have a tendency to take over which is great at the time but hard to live without! Enjoy the sleep ...

Wells1, oh,yes, I've been there too! My son (now 4) was born end Feb and I had happy visions of him lying on a rug in the garden that summer while I got on with the weeding ... (strangely enough, potatoes never occured to me!) It never happened, not once. I despaired when other mothers told me their daily lives - mine seemed to be nothing but feeding and howling and as a first time mother you can't help but think it's something you're doing. Likewise, the mothers with babies who sleep/play/smile ALWAYS think it's something wonderful they did! My ds fed every two hours until he was six months old (and since each feed/change took about an hour, as you can imagine, I didn't get out much!) Oh and I'd forgotten till I read it here - yes, that endless low-level grizzzzzling that used to drive me completely beserk!! Others can't even hear it but it grates on a hormonal mother like nails on a blackboard. It's ghastly - you want to enjoy this time and the shock of it all can be dreadful.
Diversions? Well, I found Sainsburys quite good - ds always perked up when faced with a strange person (of course that really improved my self-esteem!) so I would park him in a queue full of little old ladies and just wait ... then his smile and their compliments made me a bit happier. (Though there was the time someone said 'Ooh, aren't you gorgeous, can I take you home with me?' and I turned round and said vehemently - 'You want him? You have him!'
And if he's happy in the bathroom - I know this sounds mad but go and sit there and try to work out what it is that's different - light? sounds? reflections? colours? Maybe something that you could transfer to other rooms? Otherwise, take up living in the bathroom and wait for it all to pass ... it will do, in the end.
PS. Have you tried reading Kate Figes LIfe After Birth? It helped me.

Wells I know of someone who employed a maternity nurse for their twins and she was a godsend. She got them into quite a strict Gina Ford style routine. I had not heard of GF till very recently but recognise the routine. I don't know what it cost, but they are quite a well off couple.
Please be assured many (most?) of us went through the same thing. I had actually forgotten how awful the first few months were till you descibed our experience exactly. My dd seemed to change almost overnight at about nine months, became totally lovable. I think she was a lot happier when she could crawl. Up till then I found it really hard to bond with her and thought there was something wrong with her, or me, or both. She is now one and the apple of my eye!
I gave up breastfeeding after just a few weeks as I just could not cope with the almost round the clock demand feeds. ( with no 3 due soon I may try Gina Ford's BF routines!)
As for parents of "perfect" babies.Good friends of mine have a little boy aged about five months and since he was born has been a total angel. the parents naturally are very proud of him and make a big deal about how well he sleeps, eats, how good natured he is. Well for the past few weeks he has been behaving like a "normal" baby - not so perfect after all . I confess to feeling a degree of perverse satisfaction!

Wells, I would also like to send you lots of sympathy and reassure you that your baby is not the only one not conforming to the happy pictures painted by lots of baby book. Our dh, now 26 months old was an utter horror for the first 3/4 months of his life. We had a similar experience to lots of others with the tummy sleeping, which made a huge difference. Put him down for naps during the day on his tummy very early on and after long debates with the hv put him to sleep at night on his tummy at 8 weeks.
Have you thought about using "Night Nannies", if you are London based then check them out. Also if you can afford it a couple of weeks with a maternity nurse may be invaluable. I know quite a few people who have had very positive experiences.
I know I'm saying what lots of others have said but it really will get easier - hard to believe right now but I promise its true. Try and get some help to tide you over for a few weeks, it will make a big difference.
Good luck.

I have to say, I actually laughed out loud reading these messages, which is pretty good given the hollow-eyed ghoul which has greeted me in the mirror lately. Bizarrely, no sooner do I descend into depths of despair than my dear little baby decides to go to sleep at 8.30 and not wake until 3.30 - a total first. He then slept until sixish and I dragged him into bed and stayed there doggedly until 7.30. Result! He has just gone to sleep at 8.30pm again... maybe he knew that one more wrong move and he was going back to the hospital... Still very seriously considering the maternity nurse thing particularly for naps and night wakings (thanks everyone for the specific advice - I could just about afford a few days but am now worried about what such an exalted person would think of my spare room/state of the kitchen etc!) Thanks also for the advice. Yes, he used to fall asleep after a walk in the pushchair and sometimes stay that way, now he stays wide awake looking bored and if he does nod off, tends to wake the minute he's home, leading to some very long hikes indeed, which certainly leave me knackered, so I hope it's doing the same for him. I shall try again with the Gina Ford, but modified. I'd love a bit of time during the day to, say, have some lunch or somesuch wild indulgence. And tomorrow I'll call the childminder he's supposed to be going to at the beginning of Feb and ask her to take him for the odd morning/afternoon. It's such a sensible thought, I can't believe I didn't have it - but that's sleep deprivation for you. I have to add, why don't you read this stuff in baby books? I do love the way they put things eg 'allow your baby to play by himself' - 'allow'? Don't they mean, 'put him on the floor until he starts howling?'. Or 'pat his back to soothe him' - does this patting stuff actually work for anyone? One other thing, when desperate I did try breastfeeding lying down, it was great at first but found that he got ubelievably windy and also dribbled milk as fast as he got it, which meant it was like sleeping in a swamp! I never thought I'd be so tired I'd sleep in a pool of baby puke, but I'd never had a baby before. Still, for all my complaints, he does look totally adorable when sleeping and has a most endearing gormless smile when he chooses to bestow it on me.

Thanks again!

For those of you who have successfully tried GF for a grizzly baby - how did you get them to nap? When I put mine down at the specified time, he just cries and cries for the whole hr of nap time! I found the book useful for thinking about how to schedule feeds and how to avoid more than one waking in the night, but can't seem to get my baby to understand that he's meant to go to sleep during the day!