Advice please on Contented Little Baby routine

[susanAM]

I put my 5 week old breastfed baby daughter on this routine at 3 weeks because it made a lot of sense. She took to it very well.
At first I found it hard to get used to waking her at the end of naps ( she was always still asleep at the end of the suggested times) and at 10.30 pm - it went against the grain for me to do this but as I understood the theory I did it and it worked very well, until about two days ago, since when during her daytime naps despite being well fed, changed, in a dark room, correct number of blankets, swaddled etc. she does not sleep, but cries off and on, sometimes for the whole "nap".She will cry for minute, then be quiet for a minute or so, then cry again and so it goes on.
What do you advise me to do?
She feeds well and stays awake between naps. She adheres to the routine at nights. This morning she woke at 7 o'clock on the dot and I falsely thought we had cracked it!
So far I have stuck firm to the times suggested, and have not gone in for a peek or to pick her up.

That means for the last two days she has not really slept at all during the noon- 2pm period. Yesterday morning she did not sleep at her morning nap either.
Last night was the worst. Having barely slept all day I put her in bed at 7 pm and she cried on and off till 9pm till the crying got much worse. I went in to see her, she was lying in a cold and wet pool of sick.You can imagine how terrible I felt. I cuddled and fed her for half an hour( she fell asleep at the breast) and she slept till 2.30, fed for 20 mins and has now gone back to sleep.
I am completely okay about being firm in the early days if it is for the greater good for the baby but we all have our limits and I really don't think it is okay to let a baby cry as much as I have done over the past few days.
Please advise and let me know if this is a phase which is to be expected.

'm sure that people who have children on this routine will give you better, and possibly more objective advice than me, but I could never let a wee baby cry this much. As far as I understand a tiny baby can't be 'spoilt' and will actually grow up much more secure and better at sleeping etc if you go to them in the early days and pick them up, comfort them etc. Some babies take very well to strict routines like these,but some will not (whatever Gina Ford or others will tell you) and it sounds like you should at least check her more often if you are going to keep doing this.
I recently had a bad experience with people staying in my house with these routines, so I am a bit anti them at the moment, but no baby should have to cry for 2 hours at this age as far as I am concerned.
I hope you manage to figure out what to do. I think the thing to remember is these routines work very well for some people, but not for everyone.

All the best.

i've never thought much of routines (cue the big debate for and against routines) and when baby arrived, nothing changed much, we thought we'd make it up as we go along and see what happenned, of course many people with babies and reading on these boards, i would naturally 'know' of certain routines people followed and so these flitted around in my head on and off...

however what seemed to work for us is that we alowed dd to make up her own routines, she slept when she wanted, fed when she wanted napped when she wanted and we just fitted around her...controversial i know!!!...anyway, 9 months down the line, dd has made up her own routine, which talking to gina ford people, sounds very much what is 'reccommended'anyway!
she is happy, well fed, has plenty of sleep and play... and dare i say a contented little baby!?

i guess what i'm trying to say is do what you think is best, follow your instincts... if you want to go down the routine path - fine, but don't be too worried about straying from the path now and again, and do what you feel to be right and natural...

good luck!

SusanAM- It sounds like you want and need to start following your own instincts a lot more. Go for it! Your baby and you are the keys to what will make for a happy family with a contented baby. Don't feel imprisoned by other people's advice- there are so many "How-to" books about parenthood but they all forget the uniqueness of each mother and baby. If it don't work for you throw it out of the window (the book not the baby!)Try to enjoy these early days rather than worry about whether your actions are storing up future problems. Part of enjoying the early days might include trying to put a routine in place if you feel that is important to you and your baby but it doesn't have to. My own opinion- desperately disputed by some Gina Ford devotees, I know-is that the early weeks with a baby just ARE chaotic and there's little you can do about it except try to enjoy the madness and wonder in the small beautiful cause of it!
Your message reminds me of stories my mother in law tells about the advice she was given when my partner was a baby- ie: babies MUST fit into routines, be left to cry so they didn't become spoiled, etc. She has horrid memories of listening to my partner crying at night and being scared to go in to comfort him since it went against all the advice she'd been given. Luckily she eventually found the courage to rebel! I believe that her health visitor's instuctions to clean her house better lest her husband leave her was the catalyst for trusting her own insticts a bit more...

SusanAM I am in total agreement with all the comments here. I have never looked into the CLB routine but did look into an article on breastfeeding by GF (or at least I think it was her she went on about introducing bottles v early etc) in a baby magazine and although some things made sense it seemed very regimental. You cannot spoil a baby by going to them when they are crying, that is why they are crying to get your attention, they may still be hungry, have wind, be in some sort of pain or discomfort or just want a cuddle. After all nobody forces us to sleep if we can't. I do realise that some babies (my own DS being one of them) need left for a little while to go to sleep and cry from overstimulation but if the crying goes on, especially to the point they are sick you have got to see to them before that. My DS was not a great sleeper at this age he only slept from 12 midnight to about 5.30am and didn't go for a proper nap during the day, he would fall asleep at the breast and wake up the moment he went into the cot, I would panic and lift him back out again, I would not necessarily recommend this as I am sure he would have fallen asleep if left for a few minutes. DS fell into his own routine at about three months, he slept from 8pm to about 7/8am, had a morning nap between about 10.30am to 12 noon and napped again between about 3.30pm to 6pm or so. They find their own routine and as someone else said it usually ends up being more or less the "recommended" routine. I would agree with trying to enforce a routine with an older baby who had not formed their own routine or their routine did not fit in with family life, ie up all night and sleeping all day. Anyway sorry to rant on but babies crying for two hours, being sick etc don't sound like Contented Little Babies to me follow your own instincts!

Can't believe what I am reading... SusanAM is asking for support and she gets the "no baby should have to cry for 2 hours at this age as far as I am concerned" (she isn't saying her baby is screaming her head off for hours)!!!! Just what she needs... what sort of judgmental crap is this - sorry... and from someone who said whe woudl never criticise someone else's parenting style !

I wish Pupuce, Bloss or Bossykate would look at your e-mail SusanAM...

I am not a GF specialist myself but lots of friends swear by her book. DD has been an easy baby so had no need for it (having said that DD still wakes twice during the night and she is 7 months old) but I am now considering if I shouldn't try it... I will for the next one.

Could it be a growth spurt ? You were saying that she had been doing well on the routine... and suddenly she isn't ???

Hope it improves quickly for you and baby !

Thewiseone - OK maybe what I said came over a little badly - I am still reeling fom the effects of a so called 'Contented' little baby living in my house for a week and crying pretty much nonstop when put down for naps, when put down for bed, when waking in the morning, all because his parents were insistent that he should stick to his 'routine'.
susanAM I wasn't trying to criticise. What I picked up with your message was that you were not happy with the routine you were following, and yousaid yourself that you didn't think it was ok to let the baby cry for so long. If you have reached your limits then do as you think is best.
Maybe I should bow out of debates on this in future - I have quite strong opinions and I am obviously rubbing half of babyworld up the wrong way.
Mind you, I've never been accused of being judgemental before, just opinionated, and I hope people will respect my opinions as I respect theirs.

I can not see how you can try to force a little baby in to a routine. Surely it is best to let the baby fall in to it's own routine. I have got 2 children and I never had any problems with letting them show me the way.

I have a 4 1/2 month old who I put onto the GF routine at 3 weeks. I found it worked briliantly and she was sleeping through from just 8 weeks (7-7). However, since finding solids enjoyable and now having teeth coming I have found she is just not interested in food at the times GF suggests and I have found we have strayed completely from the routine. I still have a happy and contented baby, it just means I do not have her in such a routine. She still sleeps from 7 until 6.30. I just had to learn to chill out and let her decide when she wanted to do things. In the early days it made things much easier but now the routine is a pain, now we have strayed I have a whole afternoon to do what I please (baby permitting) before she decides to have tea, bath and bed. I would recommend the GF approach to anyone in the early days but once your baby becomes a little older they will find their own routine and you just have to go with it! Lets face it you cannot force a baby to take food when they don't want it or to sleep when they don't want to.

Susanam

I think it takes a while for babies to get into the habit of sleeping and napping well. GF's routines fit in with many babies, because most babies get tired after two hours and want to eat around 3-4 hourly, which stretches out around six weeks, when they begin to distinguish night and day. But some babies take a while to develop good naps - if you have a wakeful baby, they may only nap for 40min and then wake up and not be able to get back to sleep. My DS was a terrible napper at five weeks and would always cry when he was meant to be napping unless we went out for a walk - but if he didn't sleep, he was unbearable as well.

I read one book which argued that up until 4mths, there was no point in trying to sleep train a baby, and to do whatever worked to get them to sleep. An easy baby will have developed self-soothing techniques and respond well to being put down for a nap - a colicky baby will always cry for hrs in the evening regardless of what parents do. Remember, the height of baby fussing is six weeks, and it does become easier! As they get older, napping should become easier - it has for me - DS is five months now (still not sleeping through the night but that's another matter!). The trick is to catch the "tide" of sleep - to put them down to nap when they are tired but not overtired - which is quite tricky if they don't show signs of tiredness and just go straight to screaming mode. However, from what you say, your daughter sounds like a good sleeper, just maybe a bit unsettled at the moment.

What you might like to do is to give your baby a chance to see if they will pop off to sleep by themselves, but put a time limit on it - say 10-20min. Try and calm your baby down beforehand (I found that cuddling baby and walking him up and down just kept him awake but yours may respond well - I love GF's words about settling your "drowsy baby" - give me one of those!) and then put her down for a nap. If she cries give her 10mins and see how she is going. If your baby is getting even more wound up, go in and rescue her and give her a cuddle. If you think she might settle try again otherwise say goodbye to that nap for now and try again later. I would always give them a chance to settle however rather than not letting them cry at all.

Finally don't feel guilty - if babies can't be sleep trained at 5 wks they also can't remember what you did to them! 20 min of crying won't damage your baby's emotional health forever (cross fingers!).

Hi SusanAM

Congratulations on your new baby! Those first weeks are not much fun, are they? Only five weeks, but it seems like an eternity. You are doing well and obviously want the best for your daughter.

Just to let you know, we have followed modified GF since ds was two weeks old and have been pleased with the results. Ds has been sleeping from 10.30pm - 7.00am from 8 weeks, and from 7.00pm - 7.00am from around 4.5m. I don't know if he would have got there on his own, but he is generally happy and yes of course "contented"! However, we have got there despite thumbing our noses at some aspects of the book...

You say she has been quite happy until the last two days. My first thought is that the routine changes a bit at four weeks - if you have implemented this change, could it be that she is not quite ready yet? If you think this might be the case, I wouldn't hesitate to go back to the two to four week routine for another while - maybe a week/ten days and then give it another go.

It could also be that she is experiencing a growth spurt. GF mentions this in the book - her advice for dealing with it is to express milk at various points during the day to increase your supply and to store the milk you have expressed and use this to top up if your baby seems to be experiencing a growth spurt. I know many people on this site have followed this advice to good effect. However, I dropped the expressing fairly early on, as I just could not fit it in unless ds followed the morning nap to the second. I was also not happy about giving him bits and pieces of expressed milk, as I didn't feel he would necessarily get the right balance of fore and hindmilk (that GF herself says is necessary) unless he was fed from the breast. So my advice if you think she is experiencing a growth spurt is just to feed her more often until she's over it.

I don't have any advice to offer on "cracking" the daytime naps, if you are already following the advice about the dark, quiet room etc. I would say it is best not to leave her to cry whatever GF says - she is still so young. As other people have mentioned, she could be crying for a number of reasons hunger, wind, tiredness etc. so I would always go and investigate after a couple of mins of sustained crying. Maybe she just needs a little, quiet cuddle to settle down.

We have found GF very helpful. We have had the predictability, free evenings and undisturbed sleep that we had hoped for, however, this has happened without necessarily following it to the letter.

Here are some general observations I would make based on my experience of implementing
GF which I hope you may find somewhat reassuring.

Feed them if you think they're hungry - regardless of the routine

Don't let them cry for more than a couple of minutes - regardless of what GF says

Don't even think about starting until your baby is going three/four hours between feeds, however, there are some useful tips to ensure they have a decent feed each time to try and encourage a longer interval

In order to get the full picture, you need to read not only the summary routine, but also the more detailed routine plus the feeding and sleeping sections. The information is quite spread out in the book, which is difficult to contend with, especially for a sleep deprived new mum. If you can manage it you will see she gives far more scope for what she calls "top ups", i.e. extra feeds, (and other changes to the routine for that matter) - I would exploit these as much as possible if your baby suddenly doesn't seem to be as happy as she was.

Regardless of the dire warnings in the book, it is possible for your baby's schedule to vary from the routine without compromising other areas. For example, my ds has never slept as much as the routine says during the day, however, this has not impacted his bedtime routine or his sleep at night at all.

If your baby is not ready to move on with the changes in the routines at the times she suggests - don't worry, just move back to the previous, "younger" routine and try again in say a week.

I don't believe any baby, even one who is generally happy and contented in the routine, will follow it every single day, some days will just go to pot, for reasons you can never fathom. In these situations, I would just feed or let sleep as necessary, stick to the bedtime routine, and then stick to the morning wake up the next day, and try again.

Never managed not to have any eye contact with him when putting him down!

Don't worry about always putting him down awake like she says - it just isn't always possible. My ds would fall asleep at the breast every night, since we have moved to bottle feeding he settles himself down after his feed.

I think sometimes if you read these boards you get the impression that you have a nightmare of sleep related problems ahead of you unless you follow a proactively preventative approach (such as GF). It has taken me a while to realise that the boards give a slanted view in that people only post for advice when they have a problem, so reading them you can get the impression that it is all problematic and difficult. Of course, you don't see all the people who haven't had problems. So try not to worry about storing up problems - it may never happen.

Use your common sense and instincts - the clue is in the title i.e. "Contented", if she isn't and you aren't, well, it is probably time for a rethink...

Reading back this note before posting, I see it is a big ramble, with little specific advice for your situation. I just wanted to reassure you that it is still possible to get some benefits for your baby and yourself from GF without having to resort to anything drastic or anything that goes against your instincts or makes you uncomfortable. These baby books are supposed to be a help and an enabler for new mums - if it isn't working for you or your dd, just give a rest for a while, maybe you could think about resuming in a couple of weeks or months, whatever makes sense.

hope the above is helpful and reassuring in some way in not coming across as patronising or unsympathetic! Not meant that way at all.

Best of luck

SusanAM- I'm sure the not sleeping well at 7pm is down to the fact that baby is overtired by not sleeping at lunchtime. And I seem to remember a 4-5pm nap at this age too. GF does say that this later nap can be out in the buggy/pram or in the car and needn't necessarily be tied to the cot/home. My ds didn't really settle to the routines until he was about 8-10weeks old and was always a little older than GF suggested when he began to drop feeds/naps. I wouldn't worry too much about it at this age. My ds didn't tend to feed that well before the lunchtime nap and I would often have to go back and give him a top up feed after 45 mins when he came into light sleep. And even if he wasn't that keen on having more bf he would eventually settle with cuddles. It didn't make things difficult later either, he settles himself with no problems, and did relatively quickly after this initial unsettled time.

I would also say that my most difficult period with ds was between 4-8weeks old, when having slept well, fed well and generally been really easy, he suddenly wouldn't settle, even on long walks in the carrycot, or in the car, guaranteed pacifiers, and took upwards of 4hours to settle in the evening. He never seemed satisfied after a feed and would be looking for more after a relatively short time. He just seemed really anxious and wanted to be with me 24/24, so I went along with that. By 10weeks we were on the GF routines again and havent looked back. There's no harm in going back to check on dd every 5 or 10 minutes if shes not settled, you won't make her a fussy baby. Its just her only way of communicating with you that all is not great with her at that moment. Although at times, I felt ds became overstimulated by my attentions and it was the leaving to cry for 10mins that often worked better at this point.
I'm sure Pupuce can give you some helpful advice on this as both hers are GF babies.
Good luck and hope things settle down for you and dd.

Hello SusanAM
I agree with Bossykate- thanks BTW for the lengthy response!
I do think growth spurt is a distinct possibility as you say she was doing well on the routine.
On days where babies are more "difficult", I ease off, they get right back on track the next day or 2 days later generally.
I agree with the READ the whole book not just the routine (and read it again IMO as I am always amazed at what I will again pick up) - reading the routine only is what makes people interpret her book the wrong way around (and take it too literally)... there is a lot more to GF than routines.

Good luck

Hi Honeybunny - we must have been typing at the same time
How the hell am I suppose to compete with Bossykate 10 page answer?! Well done Bossykate - glad to know I am not the only one who spends hours writing long replies on GF!!!

sorry it is so long!

Thewiseone, sorry to have upset you. I personally got the impression from susanAM's post that she was unhappy with the situation herself and I did not consider comments made by myself other any other non GF mums to be "judgemental crap" as far as I could see susanAM was seeking some advice whether that be to continue with the CLB routine or perhaps consider the other options. As she says in her post she doesn't think it is okay to let a baby cry as much as she has done over the past few days. Now perhaps its my hormones, baby due in 8 weeks, but I happen to agree with this! After all has the baby read the CLB book to know that they should be napping at certain times etc.

Bossykate's advice sounds good if susanAM wants to continue with the routine, a little more relaxed.

Perhaps us non GF mums were just trying to make the point that our children are not uncontrollable monsters who don't go to bed because we have not applied the GF routine. My DS is three and sleeps from 8pm to 8am and still naps for an hour or so in the afternoon. He had a good routine as a baby as I mentioned earlier and still has a good routine now. The point being that I never stressed about the time something was happening, it just happened when DS was ready and fitted in with our family routine, this way we have from an early stage all been able to eat together in the evening, at 6pm when DH is home from work. I think the point that was being made was for some mums it is perhaps better to find your own way and as I said in my original post GF did have some interesting comments to make re breastfeeding in the article I read but this being my second baby was able to take my own experience and decide what I would and would not take from the advice. Agree with Bossykate about expressing the milk but perhaps for slightly different reasons etc.

susanAM I do wish you all the best whether you decide to continue with this routine or not I hope my comments did not upset you as they were not intended to be upsetting. I am hormonal at the moment but (and correct me if I am wrong) felt you were not happy about the situation as I would not be listening to my baby crying. I am sorry if any offence was taken.

susanAM - take a deep breath!

DS is 5 months & a Contented Little Baby, sleeps 7pm to 7am, hardly every cries, blah blah u get the picture - i.e. baby nirvana that GF & all GF followers hope to reach. Take heart! You'll get there, I did & at one point I really thought that ds is the out-lier in the sample.

1st of all, with yr dd's crying & refusal to nap. GF notes that babies do go thru' a period when they are difficult to settle, usualy during growth spurt. DD might be really hungry. DS also went thru' the non-stop crying during the lunch time. I could never just leave him for long, hence it took a while to settle him in the routine - he always overslept when he should be waking & cried when he was sposed to sleep. I think little by little, e.g. keeping him awake for 10 more mins. in afternoon, it started to work.

Also do u use a pacifier? If dd is not really hungry, she probably just wants something to soothe her. I'm not such an alarmist about it as I found GF was, ds had his fill of soothers but happily does without also. I gave it to him a lot at week 5 as he seemed to really need something to settle him to help him sleep.

As for cracking it, try not to think that way, I did & was in despair by week 6 because each day/night, I was hoping would be the one when we crack it. DS started sleeping thru' at I think about 10 weeks & since then has been a dream, while the last 10 weeks has been a hazy memory. Courage! Let us know how u get on.

susanAM sorry you must be sick of hearing from me. I have just noticed in someone else's post a comment about napping in the pram etc. I used to find this helpful on days when DS would not settle and I was at the end of my tether, just to stick him in the pram and go out. Nine times out of 10 he would sleep in the pram and we would both return home an hour or more later much happier and much more relaxed.

The work mate who told me about this website said lots of you would help me and she is right!
Particular thanks to the person called Bossykate for such a detailed reply, but also to you all. I was not offended by anything so don't worry.
I should clarofy about leaving her to cry as I have perhaps misled you. Never has she cried solidly for an hour or anything. The 2 days I spoke about went something like this - put baby in cot, quiet for ten minutes, cried for one, quiet for three, cry for two, quiet for five, cry for one ,quiet one, cry one, repeat ...just when I thought I should go and see her she would go quiet for a long spell of maybe 15 minutes!

I have cut and pasted a couple of your kind remarks to clarify

"Your message reminds me of stories my mother in law tells about the advice she was given when my partner was a baby- ie: babies MUST fit into routines, be left to cry so they didn't become spoiled, etc"
I am not like this at ALL!

"I can not see how you can try to force a little baby in to a routine"
Agree. Point is the routine I was following makes logical sense and also she took to it so well. I did not have to force it on her at all which is why I wondered if others who had tried it went through sticky patches.

"I think it takes a while for babies to get into the habit of sleeping and napping well. GF's routines fit in with many babies, because most babies get tired after two hours and want to eat around 3-4 hourly," That is what I mean about the suggested routines seeming logical.

Actually one of my reasons for going for a sleep/feed schedule is I want to breastfeed my daughter and not give any formula if possible but I found demand feeding in the first two weeks painful and exhausting ( stating the obvious an=bout having a brand new baby of course, no matter how she is fed). The routine appealed as much for the feeding as the sleeping.Breastfeeding is still not easy but is bearable if I can sort of plan the start and finic=sh of feeds ( within reason) rather than feel she is feeding constantly, using my sore nipple as a pacifier.
For those who suggested a growth spurt I think you may be right. I fed her more today. Nipples very sore ( community midwife says latch on is good, can't see a problem there)but she is sleeping better.
Thanks in particular too to those who have actually tried the advice in the CLB book. I get the impression many of you have not read it and may have preconceived ideas about what the author says, but I do appreciate all comments, in fact I am quite touched at the concpt of mothers who have never met helping each other out like this.

Glad things are going better, susanAM, and good luck with the routines. (Sorry you didn't like being compared to my MIL- she's a sweetie, honestly!)

Glad things are going better, susanAM, and good luck with the routines. (Sorry you didn't like being compared to my MIL- she's a sweetie, honestly!)

oops.

SusanAM, re sore nipples, have you had your latch checked by a breastfeeding counsellor (BFC)? They have a lot more training and experience than the average midwife and might be able to spot something that's causing you problems. TikTok, who contributes here, is a BFC and can tell you more and also you can contact a National Childbirth Trust BFC between 8am - 10pm on 0870 444 8708. It's free, apart from the phone call. Good luck.

Glad to hear things are OK. This site has been a lifesaver for me. Just when I'm about to give up in despair, there's always great advice around to help me get over the bumps.

BTW - Are you also expressing? I cannot emphasise how important it is - yes everyone talks of nipple confusion blahdiblah, but firstly - its a welcome relief for mum's nipples & secondly - by giving babe 1 bottle IMO they become more flexible/less fussy about how they feed - this was a huge relief for me as I had to return to work after 2 months. So knowing that ds was happily taking his feed either breast or bottle was 1 less thing to worry. A work colleague who gave birth at the same time did not introduce bottle until month 5 - sadly she is now very stressed out as dd absolutely refuses it (bottled breastmilk) & holds out until she can.
So do keep in mind the bottle thing.

Glad to hear you are doing better today. Mumsnet is great isn't it - whatever you are struggling with there is someone who understands.

Can I reiterate what was said about getting in touch with a BFC about your sore nipples. With my dd, both the midwife and the HV said my latch was good, even though my nipples were agony. A BFC made a TINY adjustment to positioning and latch, and WOW what a difference. And all for free! Do try it if you get a chance. I was about to give up bf and went on to feed for 13 months.

I have read the CLBB cover to cover by the way - and that is the whole reason why I would never do it - but thats me - and my children are very contented anyway.

susanAM, glad to hear things are better today. I am one of those who has not read the CLB book and to tell you the truth hadn't heard too much about it until very recently but if it works for you go for it.

I am considering getting the book out of the library to expand my knowledge but doubt I will put the routine into operation, don't think it is for me. I like Bossykate's take on things though she seems to have found a good balance!