endless messing around/crying by overtired 2 year old

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

DD has just turned 2 and her sleep has completely gone crazy. over the past few months I've transitioned her from breastfeeding to sleep/co-sleeping gradually one step at a time to being able to fall asleep herself after a feed in a cot in a room with DS...but the last few weeks have been an absolute joke (except I'm not laughing) - she frequently tells me I've "missed a page" in her story when I haven't, she runs off/cries when I put her down/has an endless ritual of wanting to be tucked in 100 times/needing specific teddies/mussie exactly straight on her pillow...I feel like I'm dealing with a case of OCD (I have tendencies myself so perhaps it's genetic)

I know there's apparently a sleep regression around this age plus she's due her last two molars and we've another baby due in a little over a month so a lot going on..but this kid is not about to drop her nap or anything (DS still has one most days and he's 3.9) - she's ridiculously tired but does so much faffing she ends up crying endlessly most nap and bedtimes. . If it's not tucking in she wants it's one more song/one more hug, a drink..The list is endless. I remember this with DS but not until much later. last night she went off fine (was up at 5 and missed her nap due to fussing/crying for 1.5 hours until I gave up) but woke at least every half hour between 11 and 4; between her and DS screaming every time his nose ran I barely slept.

so I suppose what I need to know is; is this normal? are others going through it? Is there anything I can DO!? I'm just so fed up with hearing her cry but equally don't want to be giving in to every whim and can't physically pick her up and rock her like she wants me to (I've never done this throughout the night so it's not like she's used to it) - luckily she'll occasionally settle for DH when she wakes now so I do get a little bit of a break, but it's still disturbing my sleep and I'm exhausted (maybe they're getting me used to it again in time for the new baby?) typically she's gone down for her nap fairly easy now I've posted this but no doubt DS will wake us both when his nose starts running in half an hour (I'm sick and pregnant so yes I'm napping too)

please tell me this will pass!

bumping my own unanswered thread as still having problems. DD stopped napping entirely shortly after I posted and DS did too. I'm assuming it's a phase for her at least because she is now showing all the symptoms of being chronically overtired babysleep101.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/overtiredness-the-root-of-all-sleep-training-evil/ - but quite frankly I don't care if they've both given it up for good, all I want is happy DC and they are both anything but. We have a new baby so obviously this has turned both their worlds completely upside down...has anyone else been through this? should I continue being strict about 'rest time' as it's now called in the hope they eventually get used to the lack of sleep and calm down?? at the moment all they do is shout and cry and mess about, throw their teddies out of their bed (DS) or cot (DD), DS charges about in a hyperactive frenzy, DD strips her clothes and nappy and sheets off and has taken to having a poo or wee in her cot on occasion. I would think that they (DS in particular due to his age) had just given up naps but they stopped so abruptly (DS was having an hour a day, DD at least 2) and are both a total nightmare without it. DS is 3.11, DD 2.2. have been taking her for a walk in the pushchair to try and get her to nod off figuring any time is fine as long as she catches up on sleep but yesterday it took 3 hours for an hours sleep so I'm not sure it's worth it! I'm thinking about going to a HV sleep clinic but appreciate any thoughts in the meantime

Have been lurking more than posting for a while but wanted to send my sympathies.
DS is 4.5 and DD 20m. DS woke every 45 mins for 5 months and then gradually improved til he slept through most nights from about 8m. Still wakes with nightmares but only once a month ish and after a horrific 6 week battle of return to bed age 2 when he went from cot to bed, he's settled beautifully at night, going off within 5 mins of us leaving the room. He dropped his nap age 2.5

DD woke every 2-3 hours and I congratulated myself on having a better sleeper.... He got better, she got worse! It's the messing on at bedtime that kills me too. Often an hour of up down, potty, drink, cuddle. Then wakes every 30 mins some nights and about once a month does a freaky sleep through which I can't understand. Drives me crazy. She won't have DH at all, screams as if being murdered. She now only naps for 30-45mins, which must be before 2 or she won't sleep til 9. Her molars are coming through and she's potty training so wakes for wees too twice a night (I know some would see that as lucky, but...).

Crying techniques are not my preference but I'd try it now if it wasn't for disturbing DS. Both have had a consistent bedtime routine from 6 weeks old.

So in case it helps, this is what we've tried:
No cry sleep solution - helped with ending bf but that was at 8m. Didn't help further than that.
Gradual retreat using this method - helped in that I can now sit by the bed instead of cuddling but can't get past that step.
Return to bed super nanny style - 6 weeks religiously by both me and her dad alternating. Lots of screaming and night wakings got worse.
Moving into a proper bed age 17m. Definitely improved things for a while. She hated the cot and the restriction of sleeping bags.

Couple of points you'll prob have considered. It's peak age for fear of the dark/nightmares so perhaps a night light? And separation anxiety is def our problem and is made worse by crying/leaving techniques, as we found to our cost, so I'm working on more one to one in the day, which is v hard when working and with another child, let alone with a new baby as you have!

Naps - DD has had a few days without one. Would you consider movie time as quiet time? Sit under a rug with a drink of milk and watch a Disney movie in a darker room? They'll either have a sit down rest, or fall asleep. At least you get a break (ish). I wouldn't force a nap, even if overtired at that age. They're too quick to know what you're doing and will fight every step IMHO.

Personally, I don't think I'd want to be too hard when there's a new baby, but you'll know how she's doing. Would you consider a bed? Combined with explaining about return to bed. Warn last drink/cuddle/book etc then rigid return to bed. Took 6 weeks with DS but my goodness it was worth it. If DD is still the same I'll be using the summer hols to do this with her, when DS can get a lie in. And I have no idea if it's he right path or not.

I've read so many sleep books and tried so many different things. I do think that actually they just get there eventually, but the bone crushing exhaustion is horrid, and I hate the way it makes me a cross shouty mum sometimes, because I'm too tired to think straight. Cannot imagine how you feel with a newborn too.

Probably not a lot of help but wanted to say you're not alone with an older dc who just won't go to sleep!

Sorry that was v long

Oh and the stripping off in the cot - have you tried a onsie put on backwards so it fastens at the back?

Thank you for your reply. I've read several times and just not had the time to reply. I'm also on my phone so can't see your post when replying which is annoying.

I've done the gradual withdrawal thing which is how I got her in the cot in the first place. I didn't even think of trying it again because it felt like a huge step backwards, but if the problem is worries/separation anxiety which I suspect it is (they both started to mess about/cry instead of napping around the same time we started talking to them about someone else being here to look after them when the baby came) then it might just work.

I've managed to get 2 naps out of her in the past 3 days - 1 hour in the pushchair after I refused to get her out (mean mum, she was very upset) and 2 hours in the cot because I held her hand until she fell asleep. she's also started asking to be tucked into a blanket and laid back for a rest while in the pushchair. This is progress so I'm not giving up hope yet.

I've always been against crying techniques (for my children at least, I know they work for others) but she's been crying every day before bed for months, it's more of a 'pissed off mum is leaving' cry for 20 minutes than the heartbroken cry for an hour and a half that it was but I have wondered why she hasn't just given up and fallen asleep as others do...The article I linked to made sense when it said sleep training doesn't work on overtired kids, it honestly feels like she'd cry forever if I didn't step in and now I know why.

It just feels so pointless at times. I'm mentally exhausted from her strops and DSs hyperactivity, I know I was lucky that he napped for so long but I miss my rest time, especially on days the baby has been cluster feeding from 2.30-6am!

funnily enough we have a new bed arriving today but I'm going to leave it up to her if she wants to sleep in that or the cot. I don't want to rush her.

The movie thing...I'm not totally opposed to but screen time makes DS aggressive and DD can't sit for more than half an hour of TV before she starts climbing all over everyone, licking the TV and being generally annoying so I'm not sure what good it would do to be honest

I think the main thing I need to do is be calm and patient but it's the last thing I feel like most of the time. her onesie has been on backwards for a while we suddenly realised that would work to stop her taking her clothes off but not sure what to do when she strips the bed of duvet, pillows, sheet etc..really don't want the mattress ruined.

today I've sat and tried to hold her hand for an hour. she's obviously knackered but just can't/won't keep still and switch off. She has removed the sheet, kicked the sides, been shouting and is now on the verge of tears as so exhausted, yet I'm pretty sure it's not happening again today. I just want to cry!

I will check out your other ideas and be sure we've thought of everything. The next step is professional help I think, not sure how long I can put on a brave face especially when people tell me 'maybe they've just outgrown their naps' - I challenge any one of them to spend a day with one of these overtired children and see if they still think that!

I completely understand the "just want to cry" feeling from exhaustion. It's awful.
Would your son listen to an audio book at rest time? Just wondering if it might be better than tv if that doesn't settle him.

Nothing wrong with seeking professional help. My SIL used millpond and found them useful.

Hope things improve for both of us soon.

Thank you. Yes funnily enough he has a personal CD player and it's pretty much the only thing that keeps him quiet and resting for a while. will look into that thank you

Hi, can I join you? My 23 month old DD was always a bad sleeper but by luck and chance she had about six months of sleeping really well and we began to get our evenings back and a decent night's sleep. But we've just had our second DD and it's really unsettled DD1.

Sometime she goes to sleep well but wakes crying in the night. Sometimes she can't get to sleep but then sleeps through. Sometimes she can't sleep in the evening and is awake all night.

We don't want to leave her to cry and going in and out her room winds her up more and more.

On top of breastfeeding DD2 on demand, my DH are I are disturbed all night and exhausted with it.

Sorry I can't offer a solution, but wanted to tell you you're not alone!

Ah I remeber DS being unsettled with sleep when dd arrived new. I lost count of the nights I slept with her one side, bf on demand while I was barely conscious and him on the other. He went through some dreadful nightmares which may have been his age or connected to dd arriving. All settled down within a few months, the less I pushed him the quicker it sorted. He knew he could come in if he needed me and that actually turned out to be enough for him and he started sleeping again.

Congratulations on your new arrival!

Thanks Indecision. It's nice to hear from someone who's lived to tell the tale and come out the other side! We feel really sorry for her because she must have so much to process in her mind at the moment. We've been doing what we can to get her to sleep in the evening in her own bed and if she wakes in the night my husband has been getting into her bed with her so that she and the new baby aren't waking each other all night by bringing her into our room. Hopefully she'll grow out of it on her own but, for now, it's buying us some time before we do any kind of sleep training (which we don't want to do) and gives us all the maximum sleep possible.

Just wanted you to know I've been having a bit of success with reassurance and holding DDs hand. have managed to get 3 naps out of her in 6 days and there's been no crying the past 2 nights. It started a good 6 weeks before the baby came so I assumed it wasn't related but I think it is. her whole world has been turned upside down and I think she's not sure if we still love her/are coming back and despite all our reassurance she needs something in action. I'm going to try and work on gradual retreat but really at her pace. It doesn't hurt to sit and feed DD2 by her bed for half an hour. New apparently some DC regress half their age when they have a new sibling so I suppose what this means is taking steps backwards and allowing them to be a bit of a baby for a bit - giving them what they need in order to feel safe. I hope this continues to work for me and I hope things get better for you soon

Glad to hear things are improving for you nicecupoftea. Thanks for posting that link, that is my 2.5 year old to a tee! Very hard to get her to sleep at present.

Really pleased to hear there is a bit of an improvement Nicecup. I did find DS knew and was worried about DDs arrival for a good few weeks before she arrived. I read on here that it's as unsettling for them as it would be for you if your husband moved an extra wife in and expected you to just cope with it!

I have to admit my gradual retreat has really stalled with dd, but she is settling better with a couple of extra cuddles and then a hand to hold in bed. That's enough for me to feel there is some progress. Roll on regular full nights of sleep!