What worked for us. Hope this helps.

(655 Posts)
nectarina Sun 29-Jan-12 21:03:49

This post is going to be massive - no apologies however.

So I've posted at least 5 queries about DD's sleep and read about 1 billion threads, because DD only napped for 30mins  in the day, would only BF to sleep (since a newborn I wanted to get out of the habit, but nothing else did it). She spent  the first 5 months in her cot, only for us to end up co-sleeping so we could get a bit of rest. She would BF every 2 hours at  least in the night, and by the end she'd wake every half hour before we went to bed. I knew I couldn't do CC/CIO, I'm not  strong enough even if I thought that was the right thing to do, but I thought that I would be forced to if things carried on  the way they were.

We read No Cry Sleep Solution, which is complicated and didn't work for us.

So a friend had tried a technique, that she recommended and I thought that it was too much of a leap for DD, but i kept  the email, and one evening I sort of snapped and decided that IT WAS TIME. DD was  8 1/2months. I don't know from  what age this technique is recommended, but I don't think I'd have wanted to do this earlier, as you still have to cope with  the baby crying. I knew DD was ready because now she quite clearly has two cries - one properly sad and scared, the  other a bit shouty and put on, so when doing this technique you know what's going on (but I'd like to add that I still  comforted DD when she was shouty - she's still trying to say something, but I deÞ nitely wouldn't pick her up and panic!)

 I'll paste her email to me, hoping she won't mind. We didn't do it in the ten days, as it was just a bit too much, but i wonder if the way we did it made things a bit complicated. So I recommend doing it as laid out.  

But now DD takes 20mins to fall asleep by herself (with one of us in her room) in her cot, in her room. and I do not feed at  all between 7pm and 7am. Dh goes in in the night and he gives her water in case she's thirsty but she's quite happy  without. It takes him no more than about 3mins to resettle her (unless ill).

After starting this at the beginning of January  she still wakes up once or twice a night but it doesn't affect me as I wear earplugs and DH goes in! ha ha ha! (I still hear  her and wake up, but I don't wake up fully and find it difFicult to go back to sleep) Do I need to tell you how I feel like a  different woman?

So here's the email -  

^"Ok, this is a plan thing that we first tried with dc1 when we got to the point where we knew something had to change. There seems to come a point where not only do you get tired of 'helping' your baby get to sleep, but whatever you do seems to work less and less - as if they know something has to change too! It takes a bit of work for about ten days or so but mostly the first couple of days you really put your back into it and then it gets easier. I remember vaguely doing it with dc1 and have just rediscovered it with Dc2 she is a bit of a firecracker so I was expecting trouble but babies love to learn something new, especially around this age and she only woke once last night despite having a cold, which is a HUGE improvement. Dc1 found this very easy and never shed a tear. Dc2 screamed 'TRAITOR!!' at me many times during the first night (she does that a lot), so I'm not saying that there won't be some crying because you will be doing something different to before but you don't have to leave her side and can reassure her as much as you need to, physically and verbally. 
The idea is that you are no longer going to help her go to sleep - in whatever way - if you rock her, feed her, jiggle her, whatever it is. You can be there and reassure her but it is no longer your job to MAKE her go to sleep. It is your job to support her whilst she does it herself. 
First of all, you know that thing that everyone says about having a bedtime routine (which I imagine you already have) is utterly true. By the time they are a toddler, the sound of a running bath is enough to set the bedtime clock going. When you choose to do this thing, it is really important to stick to your bedtime routine without fail for the ten days and it needs to be between 20 and 45 minutes long. Also, this plan also applies to naps, so you need to be able to be at home for naptimes - just until Dd has the thing established - ten days usually does it. Lastly, you are aiming for Dd to be in bed by 7ish in the evening and not much later. If you're like me you're knackered by about half four, so starting bedtime at a quarter past six is no trouble. You've probably done all that so on to the plan. I'll do bedtimes first and then naps. 

Day 1, 2 and 3 - Place a chair right next to the cot. Make it a comfortable chair, you may get to know it fairly well. Have a duvet, cushions, iphone, book to hand. Do your bedtime routine and put Dd in the cot awake. She may well not know what to do next and try all sorts of things. If she stands up you can gently pop her back down again but only a few times - if she insists on standing for a bit then let her - it may just be one of those things she incorporates into her own burgeoning routine, and I daresay she is capable of getting back down again by now. You can pat the bed to let her know you want her to lie down. Sooner or later she is likely to sit down for a bit and eventually plop on to her front. She has to find her own way through this so she may try eating her blanket or playing with a toy before she lies down - that's up to her. If she cries, you can pat her and speak to her. As long as you remember that your patting and comforting is not there to get her to sleep, just to help her calm down in this new and confusing situation so as soon as she starts to settle, lighten your touch with a view to taking your hand off her, and stop speaking. She may go back and forth a bit needing you to touch and speak to her a few more times, but each time lessen your touch when she has settled. Stay there until she has fallen fast asleep and creep out. This bit can take ten minutes for some babies, but most fall asleep after 45 minutes. Two hours is the longest on record! I expected Dc2 to be a two hour effort but no - 45 minutes almost exactly. As long as you know that it is going to take that long, you can get through it. When she wakes up in the night, you do exactly the same thing, each and every time. The first few times she wakes, she will probably yell for you, but as she gets the idea that she can drift back to sleep herself, she may just squeak and go back (sounds unlikely? I thought that too.) The idea is that as time goes on you can wait a tiny bit longer before you go in, to give her the opportunity to practise her new skill.

Days 4, 5 and 6 - move the chair a few feet away from the cot. Keep everything else the same except you are further away. Once you have had your bedtime cuddle and put her in the cot sit down. You can still go to her if she really needs you, and you can still speak to her but she may not need as much help by now. Again, wait until she is asleep before you leave. Repeat as often as necessary when she wakes although, again, leave it a few minutes before you go in.

Days 7, 8 and 9 - move the chair to the door or the other side of the room. Make sure she can still see you, but once you have settled her in her cot and gone to the chair try not to go to her unless she has got herself into a daft position and can't get out. By now she will start developing her own strategy to get to sleep, and you will be able to tell what stage she is at, because you've been watching it all the way through.

Day 10 - you have several choices. If you think things are going really well and baby can cope with you not being there  you can leave the room and see how she gets on. You can hover by the door out of sight and watch what happens, and  reassure her with your voice. If you feel apprehensive about it and think she needs longer you can try the Bustle -  instead of sitting down, tinker about in her room, cleaning up or folding washing or whatever. Or you can continue in the  chair.  The idea of the plan is ultimately for you to be able to plonk and go, but I quite like spending that extra time with DC so I  use a mixture of the bustle and the chair. For night wakings you now really have to give her the chance to go back on her  own. Wait ten minutes ( I know - such a long time!) before you go in.  I got up last night to Þ nd by the time I got to DC's  door, she'd already curled up again! That's the main brunt of it. Just bear in mind that the first couple of nights are the worst - she might wake more frequently,  but stick at it and you'll see an improvement. The other thing is that when they start sleeping longer in the night they get  up properly a bit too early in the morning - but this usually improves over a few weeks as they get the hang of sleeping.  I've kind of assumed that you are going to move her into her own room - there's no reason you can't start this as soon as  you move her in. If DC get ill and it disrupts her sleep, go back to whichever stage in the plan you think works best. You can sleep in her  room if you want to keep an eye on her, but don't bring her in with you.

Naps - Do the same for naps as you do at night times only you can't sit there for as long as it takes - give it an hour and if  she hasn't gone to sleep, get her up and feed her or do something different and try again a bit later. If she resists  napping like this twice in a day you can resort to taking her out in the buggy or something. just so she gets a bit of sleep  in the day. You are aiming at two solid naps a day by the way. If you've started this thing at bedtime the night before, the  nap thing is usually not a problem.  I can't think of anything else right now! By the way this is based on a Canadian lady's idea. I chose to use it because it  doesn't mean leaving a baby to cry. They learn to fall asleep without you intervening, although you might argue that your  presence is a sort of intervention, but before long you will find yourself saying goodnight and shutting the door, because  she'd not taking any notice of you anymore!" ^

So for us the First night it took 3 hours 10mins, which is why for nightwakings later on that night I just fed her instead of  sitting with her. Within the first few nights she woke LOADS less and then DH would go to her and he would just ask her  to put her head down and she would and go straight back to sleep. Needless to say that sort of thing just wouldn't  happen before. So if I remember rightly it was only after 4 or 5 nights that I stopped feeding her. The other thing we've  found a bit hard is waiting a few mins before going in to her when she wakes. We just give it one or two minutes more  than we'd usually do instead of waiting 10.  

DH would like to add that he thinks the important thing is to teach DC to put their head down and close their eyes - he  says' put your head down, put your head down, now close your eyes' and repeats it a bit like a mantra gently until DD  does, and then stops as soon as she does what he says. He says for our 9month old that after a week she knows what it  means and does what he suggests! He says that this is useful in the night and that's all he needs to do to get her to go back to sleep.

For the first night I recommend a large glass of wine that you take in with you. For the second night, have  the bottle waiting for you on the table in the lounge. Also on the first night we both did it together for a bit of moral  support and took it in turns but I'm assuming that none of you is as much as a wimp as I am.

I hope this isn't too much of a mess, my friend's writing is very clear, and mine is all over the shop. I'm just a bit  enthusiastic about how its gone. I hope this is of use to someone.

bagelmonkey Sun 29-Jan-12 21:14:47

Thanks for posting. I think this could be useful for us.

Thanks for posting this Nectarina. Going to discuss with dp and hopefully give it a go (although I'm struggling with the idea of waiting ten mnutes before going to dd it the night). I will report back!

bt1978 Sun 29-Jan-12 22:08:54

Great post Nectarina.
We did almost exactly this for DD when she was 7 months and it worked amazingly well and she has been a great sleeper ever since.
Now doing a version of it with DS (currently 4mo) and have been doing it for just over a week and last night he slept through from 7pm until 6am...which I have clearly just jinxed and it won't happen again ...but this is great progress as he was waking loads before! (I don't leave him to cry if he wakes though, and have more physical contact with him than if he was older - but never take him out of his cot - getting them to settle in the cot is key IMO)

nectarina Sun 29-Jan-12 22:11:28

Attheendoftheday - hmmm yes, i don't think we've waited any longer than 3. Maybe because dd wakes up really crying, if she woke up grumbling i could possibly...

hardboiledpossum Sun 29-Jan-12 23:10:55

I've done this and except the leaving for 10 minutes to settle in the night to sleep. After 10 days he was falling asleep pretty quickly whilst I sat by the door but was still waking up 5+ times a night, I might try leaving for 5 minutes. I don't know if I can face the whole 10, he gets so worked up and then could be so much harder to settle!

LAbaby Mon 30-Jan-12 07:56:10

If my baby can see me he will scream at me to hold him. Do I just ignore him?
This seems like a good plan, more baby friendly than cry it out.

1Catherine1 Mon 30-Jan-12 11:44:43

Do you mind if I ask a question though as I'm planning on fixing my DD (10 months) sleeping pattern over half term when I'm at home all day.

What do you do if baby screams her little head off after 2 minutes of being in the cot and does not respond to "shhh", pats and "sleepy time"? Only to hugs, cuddles and booby?

grace11 Mon 30-Jan-12 13:37:09

We did exactly the same thing (gradual retreat) and it was amazing - we couldn't believe how quickly our dd learnt to go to sleep without bf. The key with it is to wait until they are in deep sleep (so 20 mins after they go into light sleep) or else you have to begin again as they see you leave and scream! This is where books, iphones etc. are key to keep you busy.

1Catherine1, you have to be really strong and comfort her in the cot. I placed my hand on my dd's stomach and said 'go to sleep' over and over. As Nectarina said, her dh has his own 'mantra' which is he just says and his dd goes to sleep - same for us - we ended up just telling her to go to sleep from the bed and she did!! We actually used a sleep clinic, Millpond, who were brilliant if you need an exact programme and someone at the end of the phone to talk things through each week (and more if you need it). They told us to keep a sleep diary too, which really helped us see the progress we were making. I did feed my dd every 4 hours, I should add, as she was 4 months when we started.

nectarina Mon 30-Jan-12 13:47:15

LAbaby - I think you have to find your own way to comforting your baby without picking them up. I've said things like, 'I love you lots, I'm here with you, but I'm not picking you up' and that sort of thing, whilst stroking DD's back. I wouldn't ignore screaming, but you are the best to judge what is protesting about a big change happening (which is totally inevitable) and other sorts of crying. You might find yourself having to ignore all kinds of antics, and you work out for yourself at which moment you're going to go to the baby to comfort them.
What I would say though is to never go against your instincts - if you feel like its going badly and you want to pick the baby up, I'd do it.

A lot of CC/CIO advocates say that your baby will still love you the next day. One night when I was at my wits end I let the baby cry and ignored her. I think she was really upset and i just listened crying, and then the next day she wouldn't look me in the eyes all day! I felt like shit, and vowed that I wouldn't do that again. But with this technique, know that picking up is to be avoided at all costs. I did it a couple of times and it was really difficult to put DD down again, and took lots longer for her to go to sleep.

Hardboiledpossum - What do you do when DC wakes in the night?

1Catherine - have you tried playing with dc in the cot at other times just to get them used to it? IIRC for the first night we spent ten mins just cuddling her and playing with her in the cot so she could get used to it before we said night night.

The other thing which is the hard bit but the most important , is maybe you'll have to comfort her and it won't work - she'll still be screaming - but you're still there for her and she won't feel abandoned. If it feels wrong maybe you're not quite ready, and you can try again later.

hardboiledpossum Mon 30-Jan-12 16:38:45

I would go to him as soon as he woke and stroke him until he fell back asleep. I would never pick him out of the cot. I'm going to try again in a few weeks and see i I leave him to settle himself for a bit longer in the night. Or maybe he is just stubborn?! He has quite bad seperation anxiety and has done for the past 6 months, he cries if I go out of sight in the day as well as at night.

nectarina Mon 30-Jan-12 17:57:03

Hardboiledpossum - what you could try is each time he wakes go in after one minute but instead of stroking him straightaway, start by talking to him then after say 20secs stroke him, and leave it slightly longer each time.
I don't have any experience of separation anxiety - dd was difficult for a couple days and i did intensive peek a boo for a couple of days. It stopped but im presuming its a coincidence.

hardboiledpossum Mon 30-Jan-12 18:39:59

Yes, I will try that. I play peek a boo with DS a lot as I read it help. He is great at playing it himself and often hides behind the sofa or curtains to jump out at us. Unfortunately it hasn't helped us though!

nectarina Mon 30-Jan-12 19:07:54

Hardboiledpossum - I was going to post another message to say sorry for the twattish reply i gave you! I think i'm the last person who should be doling out advice...

LAbaby Tue 31-Jan-12 01:14:12

Thanks for your reply. We were looking for an alternative to controlled crying a that's not for us, but we really need to take action as evenings are now just us tryin to settle our six month old, he gets really upset and exhausted even though I am holding him. Will report back tomorrow!

nectarina Tue 31-Jan-12 17:28:19

LAbaby - i hope it goes alright tonight.

pinkdaisies Tue 31-Jan-12 18:48:38

Thanks so much for taking the time to do this! I'll probably use this when DS2 is old enough as I'm quite sure we'll need it! Just a quick, and probably very stupid, question. If the baby cries hard, which I imagine DS will as he will only feed to sleep at the mo, how is that so different to CC? I ask this as with DS1 we had to resort to CC at 8 months as I was going back to work and he was still waking every 2 hours. I hated it and it's a big regret despite the fact that DS1 is now a happy 2 year old and it worked fairly quickly. I just know I couldn't do it again so this gradual retreat sounds perfect but I want to be sure it's really not like CC! Is it because you're there to reassure them the whole time so they don't feel abandoned even if they have to cry?

I tried the gentle sleep training methods with DS1 and he just didn't respond AT ALL! Feel I need something up my sleeve!

nectarina Tue 31-Jan-12 19:51:02

Pinkdaisies - yep, the baby's crying out of frustration than fear of being abandoned when you're with them. Before de did this, dd could never be consoled by cuddling etc it was only bf that did it. So we were teaching her to let us comfort her by touch and voice as well as go to sleep. But saying that it does help if you do it with an iron will due to being fed up of the situation as its not pleasant albeit knowing they don't feel abandoned...

Thanks for this. It looks interesting (and I like how detailed it is - easy to follow!)

DS is almost six months. Is that too young to try it? Anyone used it for a young-ish baby? bt1978 - how is it working with your four month old?

I'm the biggest wimp in the world - I can't bear for DS to cry even for a few minutes. How did the rest of you find the crying?

watermint Wed 01-Feb-12 07:57:16

thank you for this - v interesting.. I am thinking of trying this for my almost 6 month ds like truth, so would also be interested to hear if anyone thinks it would work at this age?!

nectarina Wed 01-Feb-12 09:53:37

Atruth and watermint - i haven't got the original book so i don't know what's recommended. I think you're the best judge of whether it would be ok.

I think I'm going to give it a go. Something has to change around here so I'm going to wait until DS is over his current cold and then start. Maybe at the weekend. I really can't cope with crying though, so may try with a combination of 'pick up put down'

Can those who are trying report back so I don't feel so alone? I know that sounds wimpy, but it's always good to hear people's experiences grin

dycey Wed 01-Feb-12 14:17:02

I too am grateful for this post OP. My dd is nearly 6 months and some time I know I am going to have to teach her how to fall asleep in a cot without bouncing / rocking or feeding to sleep as she too wakes all night... It's helpful to hear what you did.

I might wait til the spring though as I know she will get ill a fair few times before then! And get her onto solids. And she is my second dc so you would think I would know better but she's different to my ds...

I think there's a lot to be said for you really being ready and feeling it is right. With my ds, I night weaned him at 11 months (would have been earlier but he was unwell a lot from 7 months) and i kind of did it instinctively and with very little crying. But realised after I had used Jay Gordon / no cry sleep ideas - i read a lot about sleep during his babyhood - basically always putting the baby in the cot awake both at bedtime AND crucially in the night...

ladybirdsinmyeyes Wed 01-Feb-12 14:38:05

Thanks so much Nectarina, this might be my way forward too - the only thing is, mine seems older than others on here, just over 16 months, could that be a hindrance with her being more stubborn and aware?

I did CC with my son and it worked very quickly, but with my DD it was much harder work (friends have found the same, boys give up, girls keep going!!) and I have now found myself not only still feeding to sleep but also lying with her (before transferring) and also bringing her into bed. So I'm looking for a way out now! (Would quite enjoy seeing this as time to read a book and drink wine...)

nectarina Wed 01-Feb-12 16:14:20

Ladybird - ithink it will work well at that age - i'd explain what was going to happen and be reassuring before bedtime, but when you'bve put dd in bed, said goodnight, explained that you aren't going to pick her up but you won't leave, you'll be right there. Then you have to ignore stonily- keep your eyes down. She might employ all kinds of antics to get your attention...

jaffa19 Fri 03-Feb-12 13:41:06

Thank you so much for this Nectarina! Amazing, I will be starting this weekend! DS is 7.5 months and used to sleep so well, now I seem to be up all night. Can I ask, How did you get on with naps? You said in your OP that she only slept 30 mins during the day - has this changed? Have just started a thread about DS napping in buggy and only sleeping 30 mins in his cot!

nectarina Fri 03-Feb-12 14:02:58

Hello jaffa,
We haven't cracked naps at all (confess that we haven't really been trying). According to my friend if we get out more and do tiring activities between naps that helps. We're going to try in earnest once the weathers got warmer, and i'm going to have to buy a post-pregnancy swimsuit. At the mo we're still getting her used to going in her cot - mostly we rock her to almost asleep then put her in her cot. So next step is putting her in her cot totally awake. Like i said we'll start when weather gets better. I'll keep you posted.

Dd slept through 7.30pm til 6.15am last night. This is the first time she's e er slept through and to be honest we're a bit in shock (sweet,sweet shock). I hope this gives some of you a bit of courage!

dycey Fri 03-Feb-12 16:40:44

Congratulations! Hope you slept too!

nectarina Fri 03-Feb-12 19:42:44

Ha ha, i did thank you. When i heard her cry i did the usual sigh, dh went in to dd and started putting on all the lights, chatting to her etc and i didn't realise why until i looked at the clock. Finger's crossed it wasn't a one-off.

7.30 till 6.15? That's the stuff of dreams here! (If we were asleep long enough to dream!)

We're going to give it a go from this weekend. Wish us luck smile

AprilSkies Fri 03-Feb-12 19:59:21

We did that at 6 months old, worked in a week, no problems since.

nectarina Fri 03-Feb-12 20:59:46

Atruth - i do wish you lots of luck. Please let me know how it goes.

ledkr Fri 03-Feb-12 21:28:15

I did this with dd 12 months.She stared at me for ages from her cot as if she couldnt understand what i was up to.I was fairly close to the cot (very small room) she leaned her head over to touch mine,it was incredibly sweet.I think this is preferable than actually leaving them alone,i eventually got dd to sleep by returning to her every time she cried.It meant i was like a blue arsed fly but i think it reassured her i was always close by.

Iheartpasties Sat 04-Feb-12 10:41:23

Hello, this idea sounds great. I might try it soon, we move in a week so probably after that to be honest so that the routine doesnt get bugered up half way through.

The thing I find the absolute hardest is that our cot is quite low to the ground and you have to bend RIGHT over to put DD in it. When you are soothing your LO do you just push your arm through the gaps between the bars of the cot?

My back hurts all the time and I just end up doing things to avoid bending over the damn cot too much. I think DD would fall asleep if I lent over and patted her back but it just kills my back. And also now I've read this I just know that teaching her to fall asleep by herself is much better!!

Any ideas on conforting DD without bending too much? I will find a comfy chair to put near the cot.

Do you find this technique works with the light on or off?


nectarina Sat 04-Feb-12 11:45:31

Pasties, i always have a very dim light on (too dim to read by), i think you could do it in the dark if thats what your baby is used to.
As for bending down, i don't know really, could you try a higher chair next to the cot? I know it hurst my back if i do it from standing. It probably means it'll go a lot quicker as you'll be comforting less. You'll find a solution. Use your voice more - coo, hum, sing etc

lolascolas Sun 05-Feb-12 21:40:08

A massive thank you nectarina!! We have used your method for the past three nights and tonight DS went to sleep without crying or a boob in his mouth! Last night was the first night he spent the whole night in his cot since he was 6 months - he's just turned 1. He's still waking up a few times but it's getting much easier to settle him. Thanks again!!! smile

nectarina Mon 06-Feb-12 06:42:42

Lolascolas - well done! I'm very pleased for you.
It'll take a few more days for your ds to wake even less at night, but it sounds like things are already better. Out of interest, how long did it take you the first night?

We've decided to tackle naps this morning. Will keep everyone updated.

OPeaches Mon 06-Feb-12 08:46:23

We're going to try this too, thank you so much for the post. Dd is 11 months and was an ace sleeper up until 4 months. Since then shes got steadily worse. She now gets up every 60 to 90 minutes. Feeding her back to sleep takes 5 mins, any other method takes and hour at least of screaming and crying. We tried the No Cry Sleep Solution too and it hasn't made a difference. I need to do something before my nipples drop off!! I'm so tired I'm constantly tearful - not good when I'm at work facing a class of 30 unruly 7 year olds.

ladybirdsinmyeyes Mon 06-Feb-12 13:36:47

Okay, our weekend visitors have gone home, who I hardly got to see in the evening as she wouldn't sleep either in her cot or without me lying next to her, so she's juuuuust about over her cold and we are away next week (so that's 7 days away - will she get enough training before we go??) where I don't think the bed will be big enough for all of us. I'm starting tonight..am I starting tonight? Words of encouragement please!!

nectarina Mon 06-Feb-12 17:54:39

Hi Ladybird
it'll go well, in fact you might even find the training easier than what you've been doing up til now as I found. I waited until a good time but in fact I needn't have.
Let me know how it goes and good luck

MadameJ Mon 06-Feb-12 21:04:05

Hi all, after reading this thread last night in between resettling DD, 13 months 3 thousand times and I have started tonight!!!!

DD has always being what I would class as an inconsistent sleeper for example she has slept up to 10 hours at night which was bliss but then this is usually followed by several nights of waking every half an hour.
I have always fed her to sleep as this really appeared to be my only option. Her sleeping has really taken its toll on me to the point where I have actually given up work after I nearly crashed driving hmm

Anyway, I carried out her normal bedtime routine tonight except that I BF her before putting her into her sleeping bag as I knew this would wake her if she did start to doze.

She did get upset but it was more of an angry shout then a very upset cry (if that makes sense), In total it took about 20 mins and I remained in the room for a further 10 minutes to make sure she was asleep and please don't jinx it but she is still asleep now.

I am determined that this needs to work as both me and my little lady need more sleep!

I like the 'feed then gro bag' idea madamej as I find it hard not to feed to sleep (he just falls asleep iyswim)

Still haven't been brave enough to try this fully yet tho...

TrickyWoo Tue 07-Feb-12 01:41:43

Starting tomorrow but DD (feed to sleep 7mths, can't self settle, awake 4/5 times per night) has self settled 2x after bedtime xnx just fallen asleep by self after 11pm feed.

Scratch they she has just woken but I am sitting shushing!

lolascolas Tue 07-Feb-12 10:18:22

First night it was about an hour and a half. He didn't cry the whole time just faffed around not sure what to do with himself. He eventually just stayed lying down and dropped off.
Last night if was about half an hour to settle at bedtime but woke up about 2.30am and wanted the boob! Cried for about 45 minutes but just persevered - kept lying him back down and singing to him. The easiest thing would be to feed as I know that works but I don't want to do that forever!
I can't wait for an unbroken nights sleep - hope it's not too far off!! Good luck everyone.

spaceal Tue 07-Feb-12 10:52:53

Hi all, and thanks nectarina.

Can I ask what people do do if their LO gets really upset? I know this is the way forward but I've just tried this with a nap and my DD just got distraught (after about 20 mins of her playing and moaning and me sitting next to the cot comforting her verbally and with my hand on her chest). In the end I fed her and she's now fast asleep but I know I shouldn't have, I just couldn't see what else to do, she was so upset, nothing else would calm her.

I know I did the "wrong thing" and feel crap but didn't feel like I had any other options...

nectarina Tue 07-Feb-12 11:32:00

Just to be clear - we didn't do this in 10 days. We thought that since DD had been always a bad sleeper that we would do it at our own pace. I feel particularly sensitive to crying babies and I knew that I wouldn't do anything that made me feel bad. So whilst once we'd started we always made sure that i didn't feed to sleep at bedtime, I carried on feeding her in the night if dh couldn't settle her within, say 10mins. But once I'd fed her, I'd wake her up a bit and put her down. So even after doing it like this she just dropped feeds and woke up less of her own accord - even after me continuing to bf in the night.

And we still haven't cracked naps! we're doing it so slowly! so i used to feed her on the bed and sneak out. Then dh has rocked her to sleep to get her used to not feeding. Now we're working on rocking her bum in her cot. she just absolutely hates being put in her cot for naps, so we just want her to get used to her cot.

It feels a bit strange for me to be giving advice to be honest, as I think I've done all the things that you're not supposed to do, I lack backbone, I've only got one baby...the list is endless

madamej - i'm jealous - 20mins!

atruth - yes, you just need to make sure feeding's not the last thing you do

lolascolas - thats going really well then. its up to you but i'd just feed if ds takes that long to settle. just make sure you wake him to put him down. The first unbroken nights sleep came after about 3 weeks i think. dd went from 5 feeds a night to 2 when we first started then a week later 1 a night so I hope its not far off for you. Can I just warn you though, even 8 hours sleep doesn't feel as refreshing as I'd fantasised it would. I'm certainly not complaining, but it hasn't solved all the problems that I thought it would!

spaceal - you certainly didn't do anything wrong!
I would start it in the evening rather than for naps for starters.
Then make sure you can separate the moans, whimpers, frustrated or angry crying and proper tears rolling down cheeks crying. Ignore anything thats not crying, and for frustration crying you need to do what you're doing - comforting with you voice and hand, but know that she will probably continue to do this for a bit. I think this is the hard bit. For proper proper upset I would pick up even though this scuppers things a bit, but you just don't want to be in a position where you're standing there like an idiot watching your baby wail. I know this is all a bit vague, but I do think you have to do it your own way, and you have to be comfortable with it.

dycey Tue 07-Feb-12 12:12:24

I always found it hard to put my ds down I the cot for naps even once I had bedtime sorted. I used to rock him or he would go mad with distress. For a while he would go down in his cot for naps - between 10 and 15 months but then it got harder again. You always have bedtime but naps do disappear within a few years!

Nectarina, you're the best person to give advice exactlybecause you have found it hard so you understand how others feel. I am finding it all very helpful (and I have been through this once already) but now with a breast feeding 6 month old fed to sleep rocked to sleep baby situation....

nectarina Tue 07-Feb-12 12:29:36

dycey please don't say that! I was hoping to have it sorted in a couple of weeks!

dycey Tue 07-Feb-12 13:22:49

O im sure the key is to unwind the baby first... I was a bit hopeless at it first time round. And I was never confident that he was tired enough and I was not confident about the whole thing. Hence facing it second time round with equal trepidation.

I'm sure you'll get it sorted if you want to.... (but I don't think naps in the cot is that terribly important so long as they' ll nap somewhere ( I always relied on my pushchair).) and good luck.

Weissbluss (or whatever his name is) says that the part of the brain responsible for naps and bedtime is different, I found that encouraging in letting me not worry unduly about napping in cot... But I was looking for excuses!

MadameJ Tue 07-Feb-12 14:29:17

nectarina I think the 20 minutes was an absolute fluke and I really wasnt expecting it to take such a short time so I will let you all know how tonight goes.

DD's night wasnt too bad at all, she has a lingering cough which disturbed her at midnight but I gave her a drink of water and she settled back to sleep (didnt even need to pick her up), she woke at 3.30 again coughing and was asking for boob so I did feed her but didnt allow her to fall back to sleep feeding and she settled ok after about 30mins. That for us was a bloody fantastic night.

Hope it continues wink

MadameJ Tue 07-Feb-12 14:32:35

dycey if it makes you feel any better, my DD also naps in her pram even if we are at home as she settles within seconds and it also means that I can get her to sleep wherever I am (as long as I have her pram). My friends little boy is really struggling at the moment because he will only nap in his cot and he now attends nursery and wont sleep at all because the cots are different so maybe we are on to a winner grin

nectarina Tue 07-Feb-12 21:37:06

dycey - the only reason I want her to sleep in her cot is that she'll only nap for 30mins and she's clearly still really tired afterwards. Im a WAHM, so there's not a lot I can get done in the day either. I'm just hoping if she can get herself to sleep for her naps then she'll nap longer. This is the theory.
Today for both of her naps she had her bum jiggled in her cot to get her to sleep. this seems like a bit step forward from her screaming for an hour then being rocked.

Ange01 Wed 08-Feb-12 17:34:44

This is the most helpful post I have ever read, thank you nectaria!!!
My DS is nearly 5 monts old and has never fallen asleep by himself. He falls asleep on me feeding/rocking/cuddling and I slowly get him into a lying down position and transfer him into his bed. I have tried putting him down awake and I failed miserably. He screamed so hard, arms and legs thrashing around. I tried patting him, stroking his head, talking calmly etc but he doesn't settle.
How long is too long? Do I need to be strong and let him cry with me beside him?
Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

Fevrier Wed 08-Feb-12 18:13:37

I hate the crying too. I realise I have to put baby down awake to start to crack this all night feeding thing (breast) but am trying to work out if it's better to stay next to baby like you did nectarina, or go in and out, or leave her to it? It seems kinder to stay except doesn't that make them cry for longer because they keep appealing to you? Or is it reassuring? Ahhh, I am obsessing (but it's because I am so so so tired now). Baby is 6 months and just starting on solids so I need to begin this......

MadameJ Wed 08-Feb-12 21:29:39

Hi everyone, I also completly agree with Ange01 this thread has being so useful to me and DD so nectarina thanks.

We are on night 3 and tonight went really well, I followed all the same steps but tonight she lay straight down and was really relaxed, after about 10 minutes of getting comfy and kissing her teddy she nodded peacefully off, there was no crying or moaning and so far (touch wood) I havent heard a peep from her.

Me and DH are in complete shock as we always joked that I would be breastfeeding and carrying her to bed until she left for Uni grin

I just pray it continues!!

Right, I finally 'womaned' up and tried it last night. Nightmare. In the end, I couldn't see it through. DS is so used to me rocking/feeding/cuddling that he just couldn't calm himself and ended up red eyed, white faced and sobbing. I couldn't hack it so gave up after 30 mins and fed him to sleep.

Today was much better. I put him down awake and he played for 10 minutes or so, then started turning his head from side to side (his 'I'm trying to get comfy mum, help me' cue!) at this point I would usually rock him, so I did, but literally just for about three seconds, that seemed enough to calm him and he sorted himself out and was fast asleep within about 5 mins. Magic!

I'm going to keep trying. Good luck everyone else who is giving it a go smile

nectarina Thu 09-Feb-12 09:06:40

I'm wondering if you want ds to sleep better because you can't take it anymore, or if you're worried about further instilling bad habits. Because I think your DS is a bit too young to be honest, so I'd wait a month or so. My DD was very hard to comfort at that age, and this got better around 7 months or so.
I think if you can, I'd wait a bit longer to start this but in the meantime start to pave the way as it were, by stopping feeding to sleep, so start by rocking to sleep; then a week later rocking til almost asleep, putting down and jiggling bum; then a week later just putting down and jiggling bum. Does that sound doable?

I wish that I'd not worried about all the bad habits that I was getting DD into instead of just knowing that later on there were solutions. I would have enjoyed her so much more. I feel quite sad about that actually.

anyhow moving on
I was wondering that myself one night that DD was clearly trying to get my attention by being charming, and I thought that if I wasn't there she might concentrate more on sleeping. But I didn't do anything about it, knowing that she would cry if I left the room, and I didn't want to be going in and out, because I thought that might be even more stimulating.

thanks for the flowers. It sounds like you'll be having lots more time on your hands now. I'm very happy for you and its made me pleased to have posted in the first place.

that sounds really good - 5 mins! I feel for you though with the nightmare the night before... it probably felt really good to feed to sleep after all his crying please keep me updated.

ladybirdsinmyeyes Thu 09-Feb-12 13:51:28

Well last night was our third night, although I am not quite doing your routine, just using the tool, as with when I did a bit of cc/rapid return type thing a few weeks ago, I knew the key for me was to remember why I was doing it (at that point it was to let her know that I expected her to go to sleep at bedtime, not come downstairs and play). Similarly this time I realised that whilst I could lump in BF and sleeping through, what I was actually ready to fix was staying in her own bed all night. And I'm sure she could do this before but had got used to coming into our bed, so it was getting worse not better, which I think the original email referred to. I told her what we were doing and she touched her cot and responded. I fed her and put her in and she grumbled a bit, but she didn't stand up and start howling, which she usually would instantly before. So the key thing was she stayed lying down, with her eyes shut while she grumbled - she was really trying. So I put my arm across her heavily, like it would be in bed and she just went INSTANTLY to sleep. So when she cried later, I bf'd and she resettled herself. The problem came at 12.30. I just didn't have a way to make myself comfortable enough, just a wicker chair with a low back, and of course it was late and DH was snoring (her cot is in our room crucially). She was cross, felt she had done her stint on her own and wanted to come into bed. But when I sat down she AMAZINGLY settled and tried to close her eyes. So the method would seem to work. The trouble was that she was trying FOREVER and in my weary, aching state (I seemed to have to hang over her cot, which became agony - what I should have done is move incrementally into at least a sitting position) my brain said 'would it be sooo different to lie in bed and comfort her as to sit in a chair?' Well it was. She was livid and standing and shouting and cried for a couple of hours, all the while with me patting the bed and trying to soothe but knowing I'd messed up and just waiting for her to tire herself out. It was very thoughtless as I was of course then in the one place she wanted to be. I must have been very tired to be so mean. But that was the worst of it. When she woke again she accepted being soothed lying down, and for the last two nights, (having thought about it from her point of view in the cold light of day) all I have to do now is lie with my head at our foot of the bed (so just the other way around) which is the same way round as her, and I put my pillow there and cover up with the duvet, but it doesn't seem to bother her as I'm not in her old snuggle spot! And then I get into bed normally when she's dozed off. So it's done, all fixed in one night, but I feel baaad about those couple of hours.

Ange01 Thu 09-Feb-12 15:46:05

Hi nectaria
My main concern is creating bad habits which will be hard to break but I guess I can just deal with that at a later stage. I am very close to moving him into his own room so perhaps now is the time to adjust my routine slightly so feeding isn't the last thing I do. I would feel a lot better trying this method when he is a bit older. I am actually a bit excited about trying your suggestions.
Thanks for the advice!!!

5 minutes again. Whooooooop!!!!

The overnights are still bloody awful though

MadameJ Thu 09-Feb-12 21:04:56

Another good night here, I think I may stay where I have being sitting for a little longer before moving to the next step just to make sure she is completely comfortable with it.

I am truly amazed that it actually appears to be working. I definately think that she was ready for it at nearly 14 months because whenever I have tried before (various methods) she has screamed blue murder until I fed her to sleep.
I would like to add that we had every bad habit going inc co-sleeping until she was 4 months, feeding to sleep, you name it we did it just to cope so for the ladies with younger babies I really wouldnt worry too much as you will know when the time is right for your little darlings smile

1Catherine1 Fri 10-Feb-12 17:57:08

So tonight's the night! My DD is now 10 and half months old and I haven't had a proper nights sleep since the start of December when she got super clingy and has been cosleeping all night since.

Had a bad start already as she fell asleep at 5:30 and I tried to wake her and failed so put her in her cot and she woke screaming her head off. Since she hasn't had her supper yet I brought her back down and it is cooking now. She'll have it at about 6:15, then bath time, change, and then I'll read her her Tickly Tiger book then the fun will start. I have put up the air bed in her room tonight and I'll stay with her for tonight but with her in her own bed.

Wish me luck!

Naps? Check. Evening settling? Check. Nights? Bloody hell!

1Catherine1 Fri 10-Feb-12 20:24:55

Day 1 - 40 minutes and I think she is asleep. Nearly gave up 5 minutes ago and was telling myself that i was so mean and babies need mummy cuddles but i kept strong as I need proper sleep back.

Thanks for this Nectarina. Looks promising. Did your LO ever get really distraught crying or was it more just mumbling and moaning? I think DD is likely to get very upset so I'll probably be doing a fair bit of pick up/put down but when she gets that upset she just desperately wants to have a little suck to calm down. I can't imagine anything else would work, at least not at first. So what would you suggest? Feed her a little but not until asleep, just enough to calm her down then put her back in her cot awake? And repeat ad infinitum?!

1Catherine1 Fri 10-Feb-12 20:45:59

If you look back on the first page I pretty much asked the same question. But here I am with a sleeping baby who screamed her head off. I have tried the pick up-put down method and it didn't work for me. DD would scream as soon as I started to bend down to put her down. This was easier and I wasnt as riddled with guilt as I never once left her side but I didnt pick her up either.

Will have to wait and see if it works tomorrow

Oh OK 1Catherine1, did you just let her cry then? I can't imagine how me talking to her and patting etc would soothe her at all sad

1Catherine1 Fri 10-Feb-12 21:23:44

Yes I did. And it broke my heart to do it but this lack of sleep is affecting my work and then ruining the quality time I have with her when I get home. I know it has to be done.

Tonight I have the airbed next to the cot so I can lie next to her, talk softly to her and gently rub her back or legs. I wasnt convinced it was doing much as she still screamed and slapped my hand with frustraition as she tried to squeeze through the slots of the cot. After a while though she went to sleep and I think it did help.

She has just woke up screamed and gone back to sleep. She was awake for 20 minutes. I expect this tonight though as she has only been sleeping with someone next to her. It is going to be a LONG night.

KentishMaid1977 Fri 10-Feb-12 21:24:48

Reading this thread with great interest. Something has to change with the way I've been getting my 12 month old to sleep - either b/f or swaying her to sleep, which don't always work very quickly these days.

Just building up the courage to do it... After trying all sorts of things to get her to sleep tonight I did put her in the cot and stay with her. She laid down once and put her head down, but then it was back to standing up and crying. Holding her hands and soothing her with my voice did nothing to help and I only lasted about 10 mins before giving in and picking her up. Can't imagine me coping if it goes on for hours...

nectarina Sat 11-Feb-12 07:36:32

1Catherine1 - how did it go?

Kentish Maid - I felt like that, so I put the idea on the backburner until I felt stronger. It took two weeks - one evening it took ages to get her to sleep, she woke up every 30mins until I went to bed and then woke every hour. It made me angry and I felt quite resolved to sort things out. This helped me loads.

This seemed quite an important step in my relationship with DD. Since she was born I've responded to her every time, in the belief that you have to give babies everything they need, but knowing that this will change as she gets older. It felt like what we were doing before was no longer working as DD wasn't getting the sleep she needed. And she was still crying each time she woke up so it wasn't as if I was shielding her from being upset. It felt like the first time I was saying 'no' to her - and not 'no' because I needed more sleep, but 'no' because she needed more sleep.

How did it go Catherine? Hope you're ok!

ladybirdsinmyeyes Sat 11-Feb-12 09:46:57

The key thing for me was the TELLING her what we were doing and then guiding her through it (albeit cocking it up a bit...) But she is 16 months so could understand, and seemed willing, if cross that I actually meant ALL night. She may well have understood a bit younger but I'm not sure my son would have. But younger ones I imagine get the idea through the training element. Also, it made it much harder for her if I picked her up or spoke to her face - that close contact gave her false hope! The 'just being there' soothing/arm on as she settled sort of thing seemed guide her most gently. But I fully recommend this technique - I have my evenings back and my bed back! I still lie next to her to soothe her until she nods off again, she likes me rubbing her tummy at that time! Very individual preferences at this point I expect!

1Catherine1 Sat 11-Feb-12 10:53:33

We had 3 wake ups and settles. One at 9pm, one at 10:30 and one at about midnight. Each time she cried for between 20 and 40 minutes. She wore me down and on the midnight one I gave in slightly and gave her a feed but as she fell asleep I put her back down and she continued to cry until she fell asleep again.

I did break completely when she woke the next time as I had been asleep. I would guess it was about 1am-ish. I just lifted her out and gave her boob and we both fell asleep.

Hoping to be stronger tonight.

ladybirdsinmyeyes Sat 11-Feb-12 10:55:39

The crying bit is hard but they have to make the breakthrough, and then it's done, and you are with them the whole time - I suppose that's why you do it when you know it is time for you. That's why I have not jettisoned the feeding yet, I was strong enough and determined enough to get my bed and my evenings back, because crucially what we were doing was no longer working either. Stay strong folks, the little ones will be fine because you are being clear and consistent. I said T--- sleep in T--- bed, no Mummy and Daddy's bed, over and over as I put her into her sleeping bag and got ready to feed her, and then kept saying it gently when she woke up. Obviously stopping feeding too is a bit different (and the whole point of the post now I think about it..oops!)

ladybirdsinmyeyes Sat 11-Feb-12 10:59:51

Cross-post - I do mean I picked up to feed but then when I put her back I would not pick her up again to soothe as this made her crosser!

ladybirdsinmyeyes Sat 11-Feb-12 11:04:18

So there was very little I could do but be there when she was livid but when she settled the tummy touch or heavy arm seemed crucial to getting her to sleep.

nectarina Sat 11-Feb-12 13:00:14

1Catherine1 - it'll get easier that's for sure. You have to feel like you're going forwards, even if its slow or difficult.
Feeding her is a good thing if thats what she's used to - just try to do it in a chair if you can so you don't fall asleep.

Its hard I imagine at the moment because its cold! The last thing you want to be doing is fannying around in the cold. It helped me to go to bed with pyjamas and socks on (normally sleep in chanel no5) so that getting out of bed and staying out for the length of feed/settle wasn't so tough. It also reminded me when I woke up to do something differently i.e. not just pick her up and drag her into bed and go straight back to sleep!

lady - it sounds like things are going really well - I think maybe your story will give hope to those who are worried that the longer the baby get used to 'bad' habits, the worse things will be when the time comes to make a change. It seems like the older the kid the more they can understand what is going on, and the less crying will happen. So no-one should be in a rush to make put this plan into action; if bf to sleep is working for you, don't listen to others, carry on as you are and wait until you're no longer happy with it (or it no longer works!).

1Catherine1 Sat 11-Feb-12 20:12:25

Night 2 - She fell asleep after only 10 minutes when I put her down at 7 and just a moment ago. Not sure if this is because she is getting the hang of it or because she only had one nap today so was pretty exhausted to start with. Still only sleeping an hour at a time but - baby steps! Will see if this continues all night.

MadameJ Sat 11-Feb-12 21:01:39

Night 5 here and I moved slightly further away but DD could still very clearly see me although I try not to look at her because this seems to remind her to shout hmm.

Again took about 20 minutes which is fab but it would have taken about 5 if she wasnt such a wiggle bum and kept banging her head on the side of the cot - I nearly failed completely when she banged her head and said "bad bed" and I nearly burst out laughing (I didnt even know she could say bed, bless her).

I am still feeding her if she wakes in the night because I dont really mind this too much and she usually resettles quite quickly, also our walls are super thin and she would definately wake the neighbours (and their babies) if she starts screaming. It is just great to know that I have another way to get her to bed as feeding was rarely working anymore.

JeewizzJen Sun 12-Feb-12 12:18:29

Hi everyone, I think I'm going to be joining these ranks, been guided to thus thread from another in the bf'ing forum <waves at ATruth>

DS is 7.5 months and a rubbish sleeper
He's never fallen asleep without boob or rocking. We've been cosleeping but even that isn't going that well now. Two nights ago we tried DS in his cot in his own room and it's largely been a disaster! I'm going to give this method a try ... wish me luck!!

I'll report back, it's great to have the support here smile

ladybirdsinmyeyes Sun 12-Feb-12 14:02:03

Absolutely nectarina, I think babies and young children are pre-programmed to be adaptable, so do this when you are ready to move them on to the next stage, not out of worry about habit-forming. The closeness is so lovely while it is working! I just didn't know how to implement the push to more independent sleeping or how to guide them through, and now I do, so thank you so much! Still sleeping happily at night, with a few wake-ups, but back to sleep with a feed, a whisper and a rub. I will definitely be using this technique properly (must get a better chair and lots of pillows...) when I drop bfing. But the wonderful thing is that that doesn't worry me now, I could do it tomorrow (if I go chair shopping) or in 6 months, I know how.

Good luck JeewizzJen - GET COMFORTABLE!!!!

1Catherine1 Sun 12-Feb-12 14:34:49

Update on night 2: DD went down at 7 after only 10 minutes crying, then again at 8 and then at 11pm. She then woke at 2am and I think since I gave in at that point the night before she was expecting me to do so again but I didn't. She cried for an hour (after being taken out for a feed just in case she was hungry) and I thought of MadameJ's post as I live in a 2-up-2-down mid-terrace - hopefully my neighbours didn't wake up. From there it all went fairly well though. She fell back asleep at just after 3am and slept til 6:30am and seemed fairly happy and refreshed. I brought her downstairs to play with her father and took myself back to bed for another 2 hours sleep smile

Am so thankful that this seems to be working for us and I don't feel as guilty as I don't abandon her while she is upset.

Good luck with it JeewizzJen - let us know how it goes...

I hope it's helpful jen. Good luck smile

nectarina Sun 12-Feb-12 19:49:57

Welcome Jeewizzjen, pull up the comfiest chair in the house, glass of wine and good luck!

KentishMaid1977 Sun 12-Feb-12 20:39:51

We don't co-sleep, but DD (12 months) is still in a cot in our bedroom, but would like to move her into her own room soon.

I don't know whether it would be best to try this technique in the familiarity of our bedroom so she feels secure, but then that might mean starting over again when we move her or whether just to go completely cold-turkey, move her out and do it then.

Any thoughts?

OPeaches Sun 12-Feb-12 21:14:47

I have to share how brilliantly this has gone for us. DD is almost 11 months old and is breastfed. She gets up every 60 to 90 minutes usually and demands to be fed. She has co-slept her whole life so last night was her first night in her own cor in her own bedroom.
Night 1:
8pm in bed, asleep after 25 mins
Woke 1:05, asleep after 5 mins!
Woke 1:45, asleep after 2 mins!!
Woke 2:10, asleep after 2 min
Woke 2:25, juice, asleep after 20
Woke 5:20, asleep in 5 mins
Woke 5:50, juice, asleep in 5 mins
6:55 up for the day. 

Night 2
7:40 in bed, asleep in under 10 mins

(I have exact timings as I was noting them on my iPhone as we went)
. . . And so far is still sleeping. We expected a real battle with screaming and vomiting so have been so delighted with night one. DD did get up a lot after her initial 5 hours but in the middle of the night it took me a while to work out she was thirsty!

THIS IS AMAZING, I might actually get my life back!!!!! Nectarina, I love you, actually really love you. The funny thing is, when DS was about the same age I did something quite similar, but for some reason was totally stumped about what to do for DD. Exhaustion has clearly fried my brain.

OPeaches Sun 12-Feb-12 21:17:08

Should also add, DD has always always been fed to sleep, wouldn't go to sleep any other way for me, but would sleep for her daddy after about an hour of crying.

nectarina Sun 12-Feb-12 21:32:33

Oh Opeaches I am very happy for you! You are probably the happiest though!
It sounds like even night 1 was easier than normal.

I think for those people wanting to wait until they have more time on their hands - it could be that its actually easier doing this plan than what you're normally doing.

Kentishmaid I don't know really. DD was co-sleeping when we did it and we moved her to a cot in her own room all in one go. It might have made things harder for us, but like you say maybe it meant that we didn't have to do it twice.
What I would suggest is playing with DD in her room in the day (if you don't already) before you try it so that she gets familiar. And do stories, pyjamas etc in there as well, not in your bedroom.
We spent a bit of time making sure her room was nice and cosy - for us as well as for her, so we put a nice big armchair with a table next to it for books, iphone, drink etc.

Kentish - DS is in a cot in our room at the moment (three sided, so he's almost in bed with us iyswim) and we've started it in there. We're going on holiday tomorrow so we're just going to see what happens there, but then move him into his own room when we get back. Our plan is for us to move in there with him for the first few nights so he feels safe and then to move out. I'll let you know how it goes, but obviously won't know for a few weeks.

JeewizzJen Mon 13-Feb-12 05:58:14

I feel an utter failure. Last night was absolutely horrible. sad

I had really bolstered myself up to give this a good try, fed him upstairs, got him in his sleeping bag and put him in his cot. He was crying within 2 minutes. Within about 10 minutes he was screaming. I tried to talk/shh/pat but it just escalated until he was totally hysterical. That kind of hysterical where they can't breathe properly and are coughing on the verge of throwing up. I picked him up, and calmed him down. I did this god knows how many times, trying to put him back down again each time he was calm but within seconds the hysterical screaming started again. I managed an hour and a half of that, and I was really trying to stick it out, but by the end of that time I was also almost hysterical. I called DP up and he tried for 10 minutes while I was crying in our room, but in the end I couldn't listen to DS like that any more and went to take him. I was just as inconsolable as him! (poor DP!) He fell asleep in my arms, and I tried to put him down again, but within two mins he was panicked and screaming again.

In the end I took him back to our bed for the night (where he slept til 1, then 3, then 4, then up for the day at 5 - but each waking required rocking after a feed to get back to sleep). At least I got some sleep I guess.

I'm so useless. But I really can't do this. He just gets so utterly hysterical, there's no way he'd settle like that. No amount of patting, shhing, jiggling whatever seems to have any effect at all. I just don't know what to do. I don't see how to make things better for us, I'm at a total loss. Perhaps I'm being weak, but letting him scream like that goes against every fibre in my body. Yet, I need to do something. I feel like I'm completely trapped. sad

PMing you x

OPeaches Mon 13-Feb-12 07:30:07

JeewizJen how old is your DS? There's no way I could have listened to that and cracked either. Maybe he's not ready? My dd is doing really well, but she is almost 11 months old. Last time we tried putting her in her own room we had a horrendous time and gave up. YOU are not weak, you are a mother, so obviously can't bear to hear your baby scream. In my opinion you did exactly the right thing x

tootiredtothinkofanickname Mon 13-Feb-12 09:28:42

Can I join too? <bleary eyed mum> I've been lurking for a few days and started this gradual withdrawal 4 night ago. The thing is, I knew about this method in theory, but having it spelt out like that really helps. It all seems to be going very well, although we did have a bleep last night.

DS is 1 in a week and I think he was ready for this, as we had NO CRYING. He would usually fall asleep in my arms and then sleep for a decent 4-5 hours' spell before starting to wake up every couple of hours. This doesn't sound so bad, we were co-sleeping after that long-ish stretch, but it was not working anymore, it seemed to make him even more unsettled, and I was waking up very stiff. Even if he's not a horrendous sleeper, I haven't had a full night's sleep in ages and I'm also back at work. I'm a softie and can't bear to hear him cry, so I started thinking I'll give it a go but if he becomes distressed I will give up. Well, he fell asleep after 40 minutes the first night and 30 the following three, with my arm in his cot (between the cot bars) and me singing. He then woke up at around 10.30 each night but went back down within 2-3 minutes the first 3 nights, but within half an hour last night (not sure why, he didn't cry, was just unsettled). Then he wakes up between 3-4 for a feed and then at 6ish for the day. We still co-sleep after the night feed, I actually enjoy it and if left in his cot we would wake at 5am!

Anyway, sorry for the long post. Also I just wanted to say to JewizzJen, you're not a failure, your baby's sleep has nothing to do with your parenting. I also thought, reading your post, that your DS maybe isn't ready yet, maybe you could try and settle him in the same bed with you for a week or so, so it's easier to cuddle him if he gets distressed, and then gradually move to settling him in his own cot? Just an idea, not sure it would work.

Thanks nectarina smile I hope to report back with good news tomorrow.

JeewizzJen Mon 13-Feb-12 10:51:21

Hi all, thanks for your replies. DS is 7.5 months.

tootired I actually quite like your idea, and may well revisit it, but DP (and me, to a point) is really keen to get DS into his own room. However, I don't know how many nights I can take of 30 minute wake ups, so I may well be telling DP it'll have to wait a while longer!

It's so difficult - I think this approach is really good, and if DS was just crying, not screaming, I know I could do it. So now I'm left trying to come up with a strategy for tonight - I definitely won't be letting him scream again. I was managing to get him down, asleep, but he wakes every 30-60 mins and requires rocking to get back to sleep. (and occasional feeds ). I can live without self settling for now; I can live with a few nightwakings too, but I just want him to sleep in his room!!

1Catherine1 Mon 13-Feb-12 10:58:02

JeewizJen - it sounds like hell. You are not a failure, it really sounds like your DS is not ready imo. If my DD had done the same thing I would have done exactly the same as you and cuddled her to sleep. I was just saying to my OH last night that perhaps our DD is now ready and that is why it seems to be working - I tried something similar a few months ago but it was disastrous. Try again when you think he (and you) are ready!

Night 3 was quite different. She fell asleep the first time within a minute which was amazing. Then she woke 2 hours later and OH settled her within 10 minutes. Then she woke up at midnight and seemed to want a feed - I gave in and after her feed she struggled to get comfortable and took half an hour to get back to sleep. Our house is quite cold and I think she was cold as she hates covers so had to softly put one over her as she was dropping off.

The big problem came at 4:30am when she woke up. She showed no signs of being tired and although I waited to see if she would go back to sleep she just got angry and shouted at me. I fed her and tried to put her back in the cot and she shouted at me again. Eventually my DP came in and and said he would take her downstairs to play so I could get some more sleep. It is now nearly 11am and she has been awake since 4:30am, She is in the overtired stage and is not going back to sleep. When she gets up at 6:30am she usually naps at 9:30am - she must be exhausted!!

nectarina Mon 13-Feb-12 13:07:27

Jeewizz - of course you're not a failure! You did what any of us would have done in the face of his screaming. I also think your DS isn't ready.

There are however some things that you could do that might help things;
know that this will be sorted in a month or two.
try to see this plan as a goal - if you can get DS used to being in his bed, playing or just lying there. Read to him in bed (not just before bed but for fun).

Could you rock until almost asleep, put down in cot and pat or jiggle all the way to sleep?

do whatever you can to stop feeding to sleep - put DS in cot after feed but do it in a way that he wakes slightly, a bit more, a bit more each time you do it.

you won't get any quick results i'm afraid, but you'll be going in the right direction.

Try this plan again in a month, it will work much better.

nectarina Mon 13-Feb-12 13:16:10

1catherine1 - we had quite a few setbacks along the way so this is normal. Just be consistent and DD will get the hang of it. Going to sleep in one minute is amazing though!

tootired welcome to the comfy chair gang. Sounds like its going very well. In our very small pool of data, it seems to be that its easiest and with less crying the older the baby. I would recommend against cosleeping in any part of the night now you are trying to change things - I think its giving mixed messages. By all means carry on (I miss it greatly now DD is sleeping like a dream in her own room (I wouldn't go back though!)) but you'll see less improvement than if you're consistent. Also the 5am waking will only be temporary, I think. ONce he can self-settle he will be able to go back to sleep. When he wakes at 5 leave it longer and longer each time you go in until its eventually 10mins and he'll get the hang of it.

bagelmonkey Mon 13-Feb-12 13:24:11

nectarina I just wanted to come back and say thank you. I haven't read the second half of this thread yet, but I intend to come back and read it later.

We've started using this technique for settling DD. it's early days and we're taking it slowly, but so far it seems to be going well (fingers crossed). We're concentrating on initial settling for the night & nap times first before tackling the middle of the night - I want her to be able to settle reasonably well before I withhold boob during the night & we're visiting the ILs, so I thought it would be easier to BF in the night than stress about the noise in their house.

The first 2 days were hard. Naps were the worst. My mum helped & actually settled DD twice during those two days. Nobody else had settled her for months. But since then there has been very little crying from either of us & DD is settling pretty well. DH can even put her down for a nap or to bed at night now. I feel so much more relaxed using this technique too. I can sit in the room, discretely checking the interweb on my phone & wait for as long it takes. grin

Anyway, thanks

hardboiledpossum Mon 13-Feb-12 20:38:48

Ok, DS has just turned 1 so we have begun today! It's actually been easy so far as he does go to sleep in his cot occasionally. No crying at all and it took 20 mins to settle with me stroking him next to the cot. I'm dreading the wake ups though. When I've put DS in his cot before for the whole night he normally has woken up every 45-90 minutes. I'll update in the morning!

weedoll Mon 13-Feb-12 22:41:46

Think we are going to start this tomorrow night. Last night of co-sleeping tonight (sobbing) Ds2 can't sleep for more than 30mins day or night without me. Think we're mad to start it even though we are away from home on Sunday night at a hotel? Would this be too inconsistent?

weedoll Mon 13-Feb-12 22:46:58

Btw moving Ds into his own room too, would taking his dummy away be too much for him to bare or would it be an opportunity to change the whole cycle?

1Catherine1 Mon 13-Feb-12 23:42:33

Weedoll Has your DS ever stayed in a hotel before?

At Christmas we traveled up to see my family. As DD doesn't travel well and we had very little time off work, we went up late at night, with the plan of staying in a hotel for the night, after getting there at 2am. Great plan I thought. Until my DD, who was 9mo at the time, woke up, and lost all interest in sleeping with the wonder of a hotel room. My OH and I, took it in turns to sleep that night.

I'd probably wait to be consistent, if you can, and start next week. Although if it isn't practical, then why not. Your DS will see that it isn't a typical night. I have to travel back up to my parents next week for a job interview and have to take DD with me. It is going to play havoc with her routine, but it is impossible to avoid, and putting the sleep training off would not have been practical.

Personally, I think taking the dummy away too would be too much at once. Baby steps.

Good luck.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 14-Feb-12 10:34:50

Lots of us in the same boat as far as I can see... weedoll, I would also wait until you're back, one week in the grand scheme of things is not a lot. Also, I personally wouldn't take his dummy away at the same time, I'm thinking it might actually be easier to get him in the habit of self settling if he has his dummy, as it would comfort him?

Well, last night went ok-ish, but not as well as I would have hoped. DS took 30 mins to fall asleep at 7.30, woke up at 1.30, took 20 mins to go back down, then up again at 3.30 but he was thirsty, settled without milk and no crying, then up at 5.10 hungry, so I fed him and then took him into bed with me until 6.15, when he was up for the day. So not too bad, and I'm surprised he didn't need feeding at 3, but it's still interrupted sleep and I'm very tired. I know I should stop co-sleeping but I can't function the following day otherwise, and since I only lie down with him after I feed him, which is after 3 am, I don't mind (I actually love the cuddles). And only doing it after a feed is, I hope, a pattern in itself, so will know how to self settle before then.

Anyway, I will persevere with this until the week-end, but if his sleep doesn't improve I think I'll go back to co sleeping. I am so tired and need some uninterrupted sleep to be able to function the next day, I can't afford to be so shattered at work. I started this on Thursday night, how long does it usually take until you see some improvement? I mean there is improvement, DS is much easier to settle, but I am so tired I can't really see it, if that makes sense. The first 2 nights after we started were actually better than the last 2 nights.

hardboiledpossum Tue 14-Feb-12 11:47:19

weedoll I would also wait till you were home to start. Also would not take dummy away as well, think it would be too much of a change.

tootired Have you been writing his wake ups down each night so you can see if it has changed? I wouldn't really expect to see much change this quickly though. After doing it for 10 days before I saw very little progress, I think you really need to be prepared to stick with it for a few weeks!

DS woke up at 9.05 and 10.35 last night and both times took 15 minutes to settle. When he woke up at 11.30 I gave up and brought him in to bed with us as my partner hadn't seen him all day so wanted a cuddle anyway. Will start again tonight!

weedoll Tue 14-Feb-12 18:00:30

Thanks everyone, I'll leave it til we're back and keep the dummy. Will report back in a week x

tootiredtothinkofanickname Tue 14-Feb-12 19:56:20

Hardboiledpossum, a few weeks?! Really? I feel quite deflated now... but good to know it can take that long, I was under the impression I'll start to see some improvement after a few days.

It was better tonight, DS fell asleep in just under 20 minutes, and again with no crying. But he was shattered, so maybe this was the reason. Let's see what the night brings...

tootiredtothinkofanickname Wed 15-Feb-12 09:40:56

Update... (sorry to hog the thread). DS woke up briefly at 2.15, I didn't need to go in as he must have gone back to sleep in less than a minute, he just stirred for a bit. Then up at 4.30 for a feed and back down until 6.20. I feel like a different person today,I really hope I haven't jinxed it now.

1Catherine1 Wed 15-Feb-12 09:54:58

It feels great doesnt it tootired. Similar story here for last night. DD woke 3 times before 11pm but each time self soothed with a minute or 2. Then at 11:30 she got quite upset and I had to go in. I sat near the door though and she went to sleep within 30 minutes. Then she slept till 6:30.

I even slept in my own bed. smile I'm so happy that I found this thread and that this is working for us.

multicolourcat Wed 15-Feb-12 14:18:28

really great to read this thread. I am going to jump onboard if ok, I need to do this, desperately. did anyone else actually feel scared to start the process? I have a nervous tummy at the thought of starting it blush and keep putting it off!

ebmummy Wed 15-Feb-12 14:53:14

multicoloured, me too! I'll start with you. DS goes for his naps ok during the day, and he sleeps himself when I put him down at night, but just wondering what to do for the 3-4 night-time wakings? He's almost a year old (in 1.5 weeks).

Anyone advise of a plan? x

multicolourcat Wed 15-Feb-12 17:54:32

eb great! DD also just about to turn 1. Is your LO managing to slef settle for naps and bedtime already then? We aren't managing self settling at all, plus lots of wakes in the night and refusals to go back to sleep! when are you going to start...think i'm going to wait until the weekend.

ebmummy Wed 15-Feb-12 18:09:25

multi, he turns 1 on the 1st of march. Yeah he self-settles for naps and bedtime (mostly). It's just the through night wakings that are driving me bananas.. I've read the OP's post, but am unclear as to what to do for these? Can you shed any light?

I think I will start at the weekend too... x

KittyBump Wed 15-Feb-12 21:33:06

Hiya, can I join in? DD is 14 months, has co slept and fed to sleep since birth. I started this evening and initially it went well, she was pretty cross to start with but I persevered and spoke to her, rubbed her tummy and sang until she went to sleep - probably around 25 minutes. I was really pleased with this but after 45 minutes she woke up and I went up to her. She was stood up and crying, I got her out the cot intending to feed her and put her back. When I put her back she went completely bat shit! Really screaming crying making herself hoarse and coughing like mad, I tried to settle her again but it was futile sad I tried for about 10 minutes - not long I know but you honestly would have thought I was trying to kill her the noise she was making.
She is currently fast asleep in my bed sad and blush
I suppose I shouldn't have got her out when I went in, I have lost all confidence. DH says he will try again tomorrow (he is away tonight) I'm ready to give up already!

multicolourcat Thu 16-Feb-12 06:00:06

hi kitty i think your story is why I am putting it off, I can imagine DD responsing pretty much the same. DD 11 1/2MO does usually sleep in her cot, but this week has been crying so much in the night and I am so exhausted, I haven't had the strength and I have ended up cosleeping for the last 3 nights. I'm planning on starting this gradual retreat thing at the weekend as DP has next week off work, but I am dreading it, especially as she has now got used to sleeping in my arms, it is going to be a shock to her.
eb you seem to already be half way there if you can pout you LO down awake and he'll nod off to slee]p - i think that is what most of us here are trying to achieve, and apparently that will help the night wakings, which is where yours goes wrong! What are you doing in the night time? Are you feeding still? Maybe this could be why he is waking? I think the idea is that you do the same at the nightwakings - don't get LO out of the cot and let them settle themselves back to sleep without us intervening.

Hopefully someone will come along and tell us a bit more. I am just dreading the crying. I know there is going to be a lot, and I find it really hard to judge what is too much, as i really hate any crying at all.

differentnameforthis Thu 16-Feb-12 07:25:56

It is called gradual withdrawal & worked well for dd1 & also dd2. We only needed it for dd2 when she went into a bed (which was far too soon in my opinion, but she learnt to climb out of her cot.

I found it to be a gentle calming way to sooth them. With dd2 it coincided with dd1 getting a DS for her birthday, so I used to sit in the room -playing- trying it to make sure it worked smile

differentnameforthis Thu 16-Feb-12 07:37:41

A lot of the yelling/screaming etc can possibly be attributed to the fact that you are changing their routine, so they might be a tad pissed off with you smile

Don't forget why you are doing this.

You know the difference between the distressed/pissed off crying, so do what you have to help it yourself. There are no hard & fast rules, so tailor it to suit your needs.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Thu 16-Feb-12 08:41:57

Well we had the most amazing night ever, DS went down at 7.20 and woke up again at 5!!! He was starving so I fed him, then I lied down with him and after tossing and turning for 20 minutes or so, he went back down until 6.30. I really hope it's not just a one -off, I know there will be colds and teething and lots of developmental stuff but I hope most nights will be like this.

Kitty, don't worry about co-sleeping, I think if you persevere putting your DD in her cot to sleep things will get better and she will eventually sleep longer stretches. if it's not always possible, start again the following day. I know about confusing messages, but I think they really are adaptable at this age and as long as you get her used to falling asleep alone her sleep will get better.

Eb, how many night wakings do you have to cope with? Is your DS hungry when he wakes up? How long does it take him to settle back to sleep? You know better if he wakes up out of habit or not. I am happy to continue feeding DS for a while as he is really hungry when he wakes and he cut down on the night feedings himself (pushes bottle away if not hungry). I've read somewhere that half of the 1 year olds still wake up in the night, so we're by no means alone...

Differentname, what age did your DD go into a bed? DS is not climbing yet but I have an inkling he might start in a few months' time.

ebmummy Thu 16-Feb-12 09:31:05

Well he wakes up a few times a night, and yes to feed. I'm not trying not to bf though-just give him a bottle and he has a good drink and then turns over (I never take him out of his cot-just lay him on his side and stick put the bottle in his mouth). Last night he woke up at 3am, and didn't fall back asleep till 4.30-5am. I just played his lullaby thing on his monitor on a loop (it has a remote control jobbie). Tbh, I know he may not need the calories but he's off his food lately cos he's teething (I suspect) so I feel I have to offer him a bottle at night. Oh, and dh has decided he definitely doesn't want to help with the bedtime routine cos he finds it too 'distressing' listening to ds 'cry his little heart out'. Which he doesn't, it's obviously an excuse.. So am by myself really...

tootiredtothinkofanickname Thu 16-Feb-12 10:19:00

Sorry ebmummy, I've re-read your OP, you did say 3-4 night wakings, for some reason I had read the 3-4am night waking... still tired I guess.

Anyway, it must be so hard not having help from your DP. Are you working or staying at home? (Not that staying a home with a baby is not work!) Can you sleep at all during the day? Can you at least have a lie-in every now and then? I feel for you, it's shattering, the only way I can deal with multiple night wakings is by co-sleeping.

Not much help, sorry.

differentnameforthis Thu 16-Feb-12 10:38:29

dd2 went into a bed at 16mths. She became expert at climbing out of her cot & I was worried she would catch her legs in between the slats & fall.

Dd1 was 3. That was mainly due to the fact that we emigrated just before & didn't want to invest in a bed & haul that across the world with us. She decided to get in the bed & she never looked back.

nectarina Thu 16-Feb-12 14:11:42

Hello everyone, I'll give my tuppence worth -

ebmummy what do you normally do in the night time? If you normally feed to sleep, I would feed like normal (not in your bed, but in a chair in their room), then put baby in cot (wake gently if already asleep), and then treat it like going to bed - don't say anything if baby is quiet but if baby cries, comfort without picking up, using your voice and stroking.
Then after a few days like this, try to comfort baby for a few minutes without feeding, if this works great, if not, just feed and don't give it another moments thought. Each time you go in evaluate what state the baby's in - sometimes they're pretty easy to settle, other times less so.
Also give it longer and longer each time you go in. If you normally jump up, just give it one minute, the next night two etc until 10mins.

What happened with us was I didn't withdraw feeds if dd needed them, but she always went back down awake. Dh would go in first to see if he could get her back to sleep but i would wait and listen to see whether I should go in or not to feed. dd just woke less and less until she slept through the night - I was so glad i wasn't going to have to listen to her crying in the middle of the night for ages.

nectarina Thu 16-Feb-12 14:16:00

ebmummy sorry I didn't read all your posts. I think you really don't need to give your baby a bottle at night, even whilst teething. It means that ds in digesting milk instead of properly sleeping. When you stop feeding at night, he will make up for it in the day.

ebmummy Thu 16-Feb-12 14:21:29

Nectarina, thanks so much for replying. I will try at the weekend to see if I can settle him without milk. I realise it's going to be tough, but will see how it pans out. Hopefully will be successful, but if not then at least I'd have given it a go! Think I will get DP to sleep in the spare room cos he is more a hinderance than a help-if I leave ds to whinge for longer than a few minutes, he keeps poking me to go into him cos it's cruel. Honestly, I feel like a single mum sometimes...

nectarina Thu 16-Feb-12 14:26:15

kitty errr... that sounds really good to me - 25mins? did you miss the bit in my post where i wrote about it taking me more than 3hrs!? its normal that she was angry, and its also normal that you did what you could to comfort her. Do not feel bad in the slightest. I should think the next night would get easier.

multicolouredcat I understand you feeling nervous. Don't feel like its a ride that once you get on you can't get off. Its a bit like a diet where if you sneak a chocolate, you just have to move on and start again.
I have to say that I was putting it off for a month, until the point where i was not just tired but totally pissed off, that i had enough grim determination to do it. I was so angry! It just felt like i'd always been doing whatever i could to avoid dd crying, and it wasn't even working.

1Catherine1 Thu 16-Feb-12 16:52:40

For those putting it off, can I suggest a deadline? My DD sleeping got really messed up in December. I remember discussing it with DP, and saying that, if it wasn't fixed by Feb half term, I would do something about it then. When I found this thread I showed it to him, so he was clear on the plan. Then when February half term arrived I was determined not to give in.

Night 6 didn't start as well as others but I learnt a valuable lesson - don't be afraid to start again. I fed her, put her down in the cot, she stood up, cried briefly then lay down on her front and started to nod off... then next door's dog started barking in their garden which brought her out of the "zone". She started screaming her little head off. I gave in after 15 minutes when she was literally pulling her hair out. I took her out of the cot, fed her again and then put her back in the cot and she went down to sleep in 2 minutes.

MadameJ Thu 16-Feb-12 20:18:06

Night 9 here and still using this method and the night wakings have not yet decreased but she is definately settling quicker than before.

We do seem to have hit a wall in regards to how far away she will let me sit, she is absolutely fine if I sit in my "normal spot" but if I try to move any further away she screams blue murder, I am thinking that I will just keep sitting where she is happy and try moving away again in a few nights time and see how that goes.

confusedduck86 Thu 16-Feb-12 21:52:54

I just want to say thanks for this thread! 2 weeks ago i was waking up every hour as was co-sleeping and my son got into the habit of having a few sips of water and a cuddle. Anyway, i followed this and it has worked fabulously smile. I hated the thought of seeing/hearing him cry but the most he ever cried for was 15 mins. I now sit with him in his room for a few mins and then leave and he goes to sleep a few mins after. He has woke up at most 4 times, but i just move him into the position he likes, put his muslin over him and leave and he's asleep again within a couple of mins smile. It's changed him as he is happy to go to bed and i now get some decent sleep as he's going from 8-6ish. He's 8 months now and so glad i tried this!

KittyBump Thu 16-Feb-12 21:53:06

hi everyone, thanks for the encouragement. I have tried again tonight, she protested but went to sleep after about 5 minutes!!! And has been asleep for nearly 2 hours, this is amazing for us! I thought after I gave in last night it would be harder as she would know that I would pick her up eventually if she persevered but I really shouldn't jump to the worse case scenario before even trying.
When she wakes up i will try to resettle without picking her up and see how it goes. Good luck to everyone else x

multicolourcat Fri 17-Feb-12 05:43:26

Going to start this tonight, or tomorrow. I just wanted to ask a question before we start. DD for the last 4 nights has coslept with me becuase the night wakings became unbearable - we have never coslept before. Is it fair to refuse to cosleep tonight, alongside asking her to self settle? I am thinking yes, might be a very disrupted nights sleep for us all but I don't want her to get used to cosleeping. Thanks. x

confusedduck86 Fri 17-Feb-12 07:45:42

I dont know about anyone else but we'd been co-sleeping for 3 months so i thought the first few nights were going to be awful and especially as he'd be in a new room aswell. The first night it only took 15 mins of crying and he soon learnt that i wasnt going to pick him up, just pat him and sing to him. The first few days he did wake up about 3-4 times and took about 10 mins of crying/patting/singing, but 2 weeks on and he's so much better. It might be hard to start with but everyone i've spoke to say most get the idea in a few days.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Fri 17-Feb-12 09:33:19

Another amazing night here, 7.30 to 5, up for a bottle then settled after 30 mins and asleep until 6.30.

Multicolourcat, I don't think co-sleeping will make it harder, not much harder anyway. It's only been for a few nights. The way I see it, we will "have to" co-sleep again in the future, when the LOs are poorly for example, I think that as long as they are used with their cots and self-settling it will be ok.

Kitty, well done, how did the rest of the night go?

multicolourcat Fri 17-Feb-12 09:42:40

wow, well done tootired , it's really good to hear your progress - spurs me on to start this. 7.30 til 5am exists only in my dreams! I'm going to start tonight, getting in the wine, chocolate and a cosy chair with cushions and preparing to camp out in her room! She is a little firecracker to be honest, with a scream and a half, so i think we might have a battle on tonight! I'll let you know how we do grin Going to spend hte whole day psyching myself!! x

KittyBump Fri 17-Feb-12 19:39:37

It's so encouraging to hear everyone's progress smile we had a brilliant night! DD sleep 2 hours till 10pm then DH went to her, he settled her within 5 minutes by rubbing her tummy (he has never settled her before!) then she slept till 1am, DH went to her again but she was really distressed this time, he gave it a few minutes then came to get me, he said he could hear her stomach gurgling. I got her out and fed her and I was seriously considering not putting her back in the cot. I did put her back and she murmured a bit then went to sleep! shock she then slept till 5.15am ( I can count on one hand the amount of nights she has done a 4/5 hour stretch!) she settled herself then properly woke up at 5.30am so I brought her in with me and we had another hour. All in all a fantastic night!
She has had her MMR today though so we shall see what tonight brings. DH thought we shouldn't do it again tonight but she has been fine all day so I thought we should give it a go.
Hope it goes well mcc mine's a screamer too but it does seem to be working!

ebmummy Sat 18-Feb-12 05:08:11

Well, night 1 and so far not to good. Ds got up at 4am for usual bf and was at a quandry as to what to do-just give him milk or start the night weaning. So decided on the latter-which I'm kind of regretting now. 1 hour on and he's still not settled. Dh has given up and gone to sleep in the spare room. Ds's alternating between fury and being genuinely upset-suffice to say am feeling really shit. After an hour of crying, offered him water which I don't know was a mistake or not-just thought he might be thirsty. Feel terrible for inflicting this misery on the poor little mite. Also hate dh for being so unsupportive sad

KittyBump Sat 18-Feb-12 07:06:07

ebmummy what had the night been like up till 4am? Are you trying to eliminate all feeds at once? Sorry you aren't getting help from your DH, mine has been saying for ages that we need to let DD CIO but I knew I wouldn't do that. Now we are doing this much gentler technique he is questioning whether this is too upsetting!? I never thought it would be me advocating sleep training!
Our night wasn't as good but this may be down to DD having her MMR jabs yesterday. I ended up bringing her in with me at 4.40am this was her 4th waking and it was getting harder to settle her at each one. Oh well let's see what tonight brings x

1Catherine1 Sat 18-Feb-12 09:41:13

Morning all,

ebmummy, shame your OH is so unsupportive. If I were you I would make him do all the get ups till he gets the point - armed with a bottle ofc wink. The threat is usually enough to put them in their place.

I'm not sure about the night weaning at the same time. For me it is a nightly judgement call. Is it habit or is she hungry? Only you know.

Night 8 last night. She slept from 7:30 till 5am when she woke up hungry so I fed her and she went back down till 6:30. She woke a few other times too but self soothed.

multicolourcat Sat 18-Feb-12 09:51:49

Good morning.

A bit of a mixed night here, but pretty good on the whole. I was so nervous before bedtime that I had a big glass of wine for strength! She took 40mins to go down, she did cry but not horrendously. Initially she kept standing up and crying andI would put her back to lying, but in the end I actually didn't just sit in the chair, but leant over the cot and kept my hand on her back, with a bit of force so she would lie down and everytime she tried to pull up I would say 'lie down, close your eyes' and push a little. This isn't cheating is it? I thought I would keep my hand on her back for 3 nights and then move away to the side of the cot and then to the chair - just that she is VERY clingy at the moment, a bit of separation anxiety going on I think. So, she settle like this about 40 mins,by 8pm and then woke at 12.20. I went in and she went crazy, as normally at this time i take her and cosleep, so in the end DP came in and was with her until 2am. She cried ALOT, really alot, and i wan't sure if we were doing the right thing confused but decided it is now or never. Then she slept until the morning and I woke her at 7am and she seemed a bit grumpy with me sad . So, a good night really. I think the 2 til 7 sleep was maybe due to the horrible amount of crying that must have exhausted her sad I did hear her wake a couple of times and let out a little cry but she settled her self straight away.

This morning it took 20mins to settle her for her nap, and i did the same, keeping my hand on her back...this is ok, isn't it? I don't want top be defeating the object, but i am not rubbing or anyhting to help her sleep, literally just restraining her holding her down.

eb I am angry with your DP. DOn't know what to suggest, but he is being selfish.

ebmummy Sat 18-Feb-12 10:02:22

DS actually went from 7pm to 4am when he woke and the dramatics started. So could it have been that he was hungry? He was refusing to settle-took till 5.30 am when he slept till 6.30 am. He woke and was smiling at me in his cot when I went into his room though, so hopefully he's not too cross with me. I actually think it was cos he was hungry, and feel shit for not just bfing him, and putting him down when he woke at 4am. And when I put him down for his nap at 9.30, he cried when I left him, which he never does, he goes to sleep on his own during the day. So it's a mixed bag for me tbh.

Went for his 12month development check with the HV yesterday, and she said I should stop feeding him at night cos it will carry on through his toddlerdom. But his weight's dropped from 91st to 75th (which I know is still good), but he's seriously off his food during the days. So on the one hand don't want him to go hungry, but on the other, need to get some sanity into my life.

multi, yeah am pretty pissed cross with dh but you know what, I just want to get on with it now with as least fuss to DS as possible. Tired of moaning at him to help cos that saps my extra energy reserves which are severely depleted at the mo! xx

tootiredtothinkofanickname Sat 18-Feb-12 12:22:48

Hi everyone, I have to dash but just wanted to say to ebmummy that I also think going cold turkey on night feeding as well as doing sleep training (I hate the word!) could be a bit too much and puts a lot of pressure both on you and your DS. Maybe try to feed a bit less on each side each night? Although I am so sorry you get no support from your DH, you must be shattered. And night weaning a baby without his support is very hard, since your DS associates you with feeding... As for the HV, most of them will say that, but just go with your instinct. Some babies stop feeding at night even before 6 months, some others after 1, etc. I'm rambling but what I'm trying to say is that if you feel it's habit, then night weaning is the way to go, but if you think it's hunger then don't feel guilty for feeding at night still.

Multicolour, I'm sure keeping your hand on your DD is fine, if not touching her at all isn't working, then you're doing the right thing.

We had a so-so night, DS woke up twice before his feed at 4.30, didn't self settle but it only took me a couple of minutes to settle him each time. So not too bad, but not as good as the previous 2 nights. Tomorrow morning is my lie-in though, looking forward to it smile

cmm Sun 19-Feb-12 20:31:30


Can I join your thread and ask Your thoughts?! I have a little boy nearly 8 months. My little girl, now 5, was awful sleeping but did have a dummy and although bf too wasn't as reliant on the boob!!!!

My little boy slept well till 4 months and then been getting progressively worse, now the normal is every 20-40 mins evening and then each hour or more through the night, bf back to sleep each time! I know it's a habit now! He isn't that great on his food during the day but doesn't bf to sleep during the day or havr too many sleeps or bfs.

Been reading through your thread and know from chatting to friends and how tired I am I need to try and improve my little boys sleep (and ours!)

Had a friend who did gradual withdrawal successfully but her boy was older than this. Just tried first night now and one hour later he was still hysterically crying and kept choking and coughing!!!! I can't bear to see it although I know the sleep deprivation is awful too. Ended up popping him back on quickly but pulled him off before asleep and he has now settled (although annoyed I have given in)

Any thoughts and inspiration welcome! I know everyone has different views and what works for one not another.. Everything can be cracked at some point but it would be good if I could sort this!

Thankyou x

nectarina Sun 19-Feb-12 21:35:14

Cmm - try it again tomorrow night and see if its any easier. Even if he's crying less hysterically it means you're going in the right direction. If you feel its too much, do what you need to to calm ds. He will get the idea and then the hang of it. Sending you some courage.

cmm Sun 19-Feb-12 21:50:15

Thanks necterina, that's so lovely of you to respond quickly and with lovely words too! Will try again tomorrow xxx

KittyBump Sun 19-Feb-12 21:57:35

Well I can hardly believe I'm typing this but last night my DD slept through!!! As I said before she has only slept for a 5 hour stretch 3 times in her life and last night she slept 8pm till 7.05am. It is an actual miracle. I heard her making a few noises around midnight and thought she was stirring but she self settled, then same again around 5ish.

Thank you so much for this thread, having a method spelt out for me gave me the confidence to try. I think DD was ready for this and that's why it has worked so well for us. (I know its only one night but honestly I thought this would take months for us to sort out).

cmm i hope tonight is better for you. My DD's feeding was similar, I kept thinking, 'she'll drop milk feeds as she starts eating more' but I think with some babies it is the other way round - i.e. they'll only be more interested in food when they aren't full to the gunnels on milk!

I don't have much advice, my DD was cosleeping and waking regularly all the way up to 14 months, she may have been ready for moving into her cot earlier and i was too tired and scared to try it but only maybe a month or so earlier. All I can say is I have stressed about our sleeping situation endlessly since DD first wouldn't go in her hospital bassinet, then moses basket, then cot but it has turned out ok and there are no rods for my back here!

1Catherine1 Sun 19-Feb-12 22:35:56

Another success here. My DD slept from 7:30pm to 6:45am last night. I was very impressed. That is within 9 days. She is still taking between 10 and 20 minutes to settle most nights and I can't move more than a foot away from her until she is asleep. I'm also having to sing to her to get her to settle. I'm happy with the progress though.

Cmm - it will get easier. My first night I was up and down stairs every hour, with 30 minute screaming sessions each time, until I gave up at 3am and co-slept for the rest of the night. The next night she woke every other hour. One night this week she was teething quite badly, (I could tell she was in real pain) so I fed her back to sleep twice. This method is great but you may well have to adapt it slightly, for your own sanity. Just be consistent and it will work out - eventually.

cmm Mon 20-Feb-12 03:13:49

That's so great to hear people making progress! Thanks for the words of advice!!! It's given me the courage to try again and hope each time slightly better! Will keep in touch.x

multicolourcat Mon 20-Feb-12 07:58:47

we've had a good couple of nights. Night 2 she went down in about 30mins and then woke just once at 12.20 and settled in about 30 mins. Last night, night 3 DD was put into her cot at 7.40 and settled by 8 and then SLEPT THROUGH until 5.20. Amazing, i can't believe it! I actually woke at 4.30 and started panicking if she was ok, and DP has to stop me from going in to check! Only problem is, she wouldn't resettle so had to start the day then. I think if she wakes at that time, she feels far too refreshed to go back to sleep again. Has anyone else had these early wake ups and found any solutions?

I have been keeping my hand on her back for these last 3 nights, no patting or stroking, but just so she can feel my presence, and so tonight is night 4 and I am going to move my hand away and just stand at the side of the cot instead, so we'll see how that goes! Fingers crossed. Once again, thanks so much for this thread. xxx

nectarina Mon 20-Feb-12 09:34:54

we had lots of early wakings that seemed to sort themselves out after a week or so. I wouldn't worry about it. Enjoy the peace!

weedoll Mon 20-Feb-12 19:03:56

Ok back from our hotel break and delighted to be reading these success stories! Ds has been moved into his own room (kept the dummy!) and set the timer for how long he would take to go to sleep....2mins 30 secs!! I felt rather emotional moving the cot (that ironically he never slept in!) out of our bedroom. I'm off to bed now, DH in charge til 11 then I'm on the nights shift!

ebmummy Mon 20-Feb-12 19:17:07

Hey guys-really really encouraging to hear the success stories! And it proves that the method does work cos though every baby is different, they're all settling more or less in the same way. Things not going bad our end-DS has only woken once on night 1 at 5am (where I gave him milk) and 3am night 2 (where I didn't, and it took him an hour and a half to settle down). I think my main problem is I don't know whether to night wean or not-if I stop giving him milk, then it might discourage him to wake up. Also, how long should I stay in the room with him when he wakes up during the night? I've stayed in for about 30 secs, then leave which starts hysterical crying, and I have to keep going in to lie him down and calm him. I've tried staying in the room with him for longer than 30 secs, but he just rolls over and wants to play.

So two questions-as he is only getting up once a night, should I give him milk or stick to mu guns and night wean?
Also, how should I comfort him when he wakes?

Thanks in advance.

1Catherine1 Mon 20-Feb-12 20:00:12

The night weaning is up to you ebmummy. I really don't know what to tell you with that one. As I've said before, it is your judgement on whether it is habit or hunger. The best way to tell would be to send your DP in but as you said before - he isn't very supportive so it isn't an option. Sorry I can't help you with that one.

As for comforting him when he wakes. Just do as you did the first time you put him down for the night. For instance, with my DD, I sit on the airbed a foot away from her cot and "shhhh" and sing to her until she nods off. When she is asleep, I leave. Then if she wakes in the night, I go in again, sit on the airbed a foot away from her cot and "shhh" and sing some more until she goes back to sleep. I then leave again. Although, I have been known to then fall asleep on the airbed.

ebmummy Mon 20-Feb-12 20:06:27

Thanks 1Catherine1, I know it's my call. Just wish someone would tell me how to call it! smile.. Thanks also for the comforting tip (though I think I won't sing as it might distress him more!)

As for DH, had a PROPER moan at him today, and he's agreed to do next weekend so will see how it works out..


cmm Mon 20-Feb-12 22:50:52

Update on night two! Little man screamed again but started to calm a little in intervals unlike last night. He fell asleep at about 20 mins then awake again screaming then off at 30 mins. Woke an hour later but settled back -all without boob! He's been asleep two hours now. So, definite improvement! Will keep you posted! Thdbknhjj

cmm Mon 20-Feb-12 22:51:56

Oops dozed off whilst typing!!! So tired!!! Thank you for getting me to try again!!!!

OovoofWelcome Tue 21-Feb-12 11:54:28

Hello everyone,

sorry I haven't read the entire thread - am too knackered and brain-fried really - so sorry if this question has already been answered.....

I am intending to try this technique when my DS is 6 months soon. He needs a dummy to settle (other than boob of course) at the moment and I was wondering whether to take the dummy away when we make the transition?

Is it too much in one go - or is it the perfect time to teach him he doesn't need it?

Any thoughts much appreciated and congratulations to everyone who has had any success so far (and therefore more sleep!) smile

weedoll Tue 21-Feb-12 19:28:10

Oovoo I asked the same question before starting and the general consensus was no it'd be too much. One night in and I fully agree! Don't know how we would have coped without the dummy. Last night!

cmm Tue 21-Feb-12 21:23:14

Yippee! Night three and he's gone off without crying or falling asleep breastfeeding! Can't believe it!!!! Hasn't woken within the hour which he normally does. Only night three so guess better not get too excited but very impressed. He just gurgled and kicked for twenty mins and them fell asleep whilst I held his hand and patted his tummy!!! X

KittyBump Tue 21-Feb-12 22:01:04

Ok major problems here sad after two fantastic nights everything has gone to pot. I don't know if it's because she is getting a cold or if it's just because she has decided she doesn't like sleeping on her own but she is back to waking up every few hours and is completely inconsolable when she does. I ended up bringing her in with me last night and looks likely tonight too. DH is with her now and she is screaming her head off, has anyone had this where they seem to be doing well and then it all goes wrong?

nectarina Tue 21-Feb-12 23:11:44

kittybump try not to despair! It could be her realising that things are going to change. Just do what you have to do to comfort your DD - treat each waking separately, it might go well, or it might not. If it goes badly tonight, don't assume that it will do tomorrow night.
Keep us updated.

tootiredtothinkofanickname Wed 22-Feb-12 08:44:13

Kitty, DS also had a cold so two nights ago we actually woke him up when we took his temperature and then I took him into bed with me as he was poorly ( he had fallen asleep in my arms downstairs as he was so unwell, bless him!) Last night he was much better so he fell asleep on his own, but I had to rub his back all the time, which I was happy to do as he still wasn't 100%. He also woke up at 3am and then was unsettled so ended up in bed with me again.

I second Nectarina, don't despair, it might take a while for your DD to "get the message", and I also think it's important for them to know they will always be comforted if needed. Maybe she is coming down with something or is teething? I'm sure things will improve once, meanwhile there is always wine

cmm, well done, I hope your nights will continue to get better.

weedoll Wed 22-Feb-12 09:22:54

kiitybump try not to worry, even once a baby learns to sleep in their own cot and own their own there will always be bumps in the road be it illness, teething or fast forward to toilet training or bad dreams! Just take every night as it comes Rome wasn't built in a day.
Meanwhile, I'm CONVINCED Ds thinks I don't love him anymore because he's been shipped out of our bed. Finding it really tough even I can see the improvement on the second night.

KittyBump Thu 23-Feb-12 21:35:20

Ah, thanks for your comments. I know i am being very defeatist about this! She is definitely teething and has a cold, she has been slow getting her teeth, this is one of her top middle ones and her gum is all swollen poor little beggar sad all she wants to do is breastfeed. I think I'll have to resort to co sleeping and feeding to sleep again till she is sorted then start again. I just worry about sending mixed messages. Hope it's going better for everyone else smile

BenderBendingRodriguez Sun 26-Feb-12 22:48:05

Thank you so much for this thread and all the encouraging news within it - I have read the whole thing over the course of today in the hope that this might be the thing to work with our adorable, stubborn DD. She is nearly 7mo and breastfed, won't take a dummy, very averse to taking a bottle. She's my second and out of sheer knackeredness she has always slept in our bed - I put her down at around 6.30/7pm in her cot and generally she sleeps a few hours before waking for milk, at which point she ends up coming in with us for the night. Throughout the night she will comfort-suckle herself back to sleep.

I love her so much and have loved the cuddles, but now she's bigger and wrigglier we're just not getting enough rest. My body hurts every day as I can't stretch out and relax, DH and I are like zombies, I'm not enjoying DD properly as the lack of personal space is getting me down...you all know the drill, I'm sure. Anyway, I'm hoping to try this out at some point soon.

I have one question though: how does this work around the bedtimes of older children? My DS is 3yo and atm DD gets put in bed before him, so that I can do his bedtime stories and cuddles uninterrupted afterwards (also because she's such a crap sleeper, she's always fit to drop by 6pm). It's one thing leaving him to watch tv by himself for half an hour while I feed her to sleep in the next room, but I can't very well leave him alone for as long as I need to sit by her cot. Can anyone advise me on how to make it work?

Sorry if this post makes no sense, wine and sleep deprivation don't mix blush

mschillpill Sun 26-Feb-12 22:48:10

Hi folks,

Thanks for this thread Nectarina. I loved your (/your friend's /the Canadian lady's) technique. Going through the success stories in the thread gave me resolve. I apologise here for the long post.

History: DD is 9.5 months old. She has always been fed to sleep (me) or rocked to sleep (her dad). She wakes up numerous times in the night; I fed her lying down for the last 2 months and noco-sleeping became norm. We were against letting her cry on her own; nor did we have the energy for PU/PD.

Today: I started this technique for her morning nap today - she cried so badly, kept standing up on her cot; refusing to sit - forget lying down. Not to mention banging herself on the railings so many times. I got into the cot after half an hour of seeing her cry. She was furious that I was not going to feed her and kept head butting me after 15 mins. She cried angry tears and finally slept 1.5 hrs after a total crying time of 1 hour!

My Problem: When she woke up, her dad picked her up; she didn't smile at all for a while and when I went to kiss her, she tried slapping my face away!! lunch and playtime later, she just took a short nap in my arms right after I fed her in the afternoon; dinner, bedtime routine later, she was happy in her cot for 20 min and cried for 2 hours after that while I sat next to her cot crying too trying to console her. In that time, when I tried to pat her, she kept swatting my hand away!!!

Can a 9 month old actually hate her mum and with such vengeance?! Will this pass? Is there anyone else who has gone through such a reaction from their baby?? How do I show her that I do love her very very much?

BenderBendingRodriguez Sun 26-Feb-12 22:52:01

Aww mschillpill, don't feel too bad. Babies are such primary-colour creatures, they only know how to show emotion in big broad strokes! The first time I spent two nights away from my DS, at a similar age, he totally blanked me for a day and a night afterwards. But he got over it with no hard feelings smile She is cross because things are changing in her world, but you need to have faith that you as her mummy are doing what's best for her and for you.

nectarina Mon 27-Feb-12 10:34:39

thats a tricky one - is there no-one else to put DS to bed? I presume you'd have thought of that if that was an option.
For most people its only the first couple of nights when it takes a long time, so if you can rope someone in to looking after DS that could work, or starting on a weekend so DH can help.
poor you. i think this is quite common. Baby realising that something they were quite happy with is changing. It will definitely pass quickly - just keep on hugging them, and telling them you love them, but they have to learn to go to sleep themselves.
Keep us informed...

BenderBendingRodriguez Mon 27-Feb-12 10:45:18

That's a good idea, to start on a weekend. DH doesn't get home from work until 7.30-8pm on weeknights, hence no one else to help.

mschillpill Tue 28-Feb-12 12:06:46

Thanks Benderbending and nectarina. Hope your issues are sorted soon, benderbending.

My update is this. I just put her down for her day time nap and she was down in 10 minutes! 10 minutes, I say! (Today is day 3) It's unbelievable. She seems to whimper a little bit now and again but settles herself in < 30 secs.

She does cry in the middle of the night but that I suppose was because she was hungry. Last night, I fed her, put her back in her cot drowsy and she looked around once and slept! Never ever has happened before. She woke up 2/3 times last night apart from the one for a feed. I just sat near her cot and let her be. When she sat up and cried, I let her go on for a min and then started massaging her feet and calves. That made her lie down and just fall asleep! It feels like someone suddenly replaced my super fussssy baby with another one! Hope it stays this way!

And oh! She isn't so cross with me any longer... smile
Love you, folks!

Mjtay Tue 28-Feb-12 14:26:02

Only just discovered this thread!! So sorry I don't have time to read the whole thing. I really think this is my answer. Been trying to get our DD nearly 24 weeks to settle herself. About 4 weeks ago, she did for about 5 days then point blank refusal. Biggest problem I have Is her day time naps have always been taken in the car, buggy, bouncer or at home her swing. I unfortunately can't get away from this for work reasons. My main question is about picking her up. She is a very windy baby. So when she regularly wakes an hour after she's gone to sleep(by any means, rocking etc!) it's normally as she has wind and needs to burp!! Any ideas how I get around this?! Xxx

nectarina Tue 28-Feb-12 15:29:10

mjtay are you feeding dd just before bed? if so I'd recommend starting the whole bedtime routine with a feed (then bath, pyjamas, book, songs or whatever after) to give her time to get her wind up.
But I'd like to add that I attributed all kinds of problems to my DD having sleep problems ( wind, teething etc) and it turned out that she just needed to sleep train, and the problems don't interfere with her sleep/ So what I'm saying is just because your DD wakes up burping, doesn't mean it was the burp that woke her.

Mjtay Tue 28-Feb-12 16:42:40

Thanks nectarina that does make sense! I really hope ur right!! Hopefully find out soon. DD has a bit of a cold at the mo so gonna give it a go when she's better. Just feels mean otherwise. (get out clause or what!!) it's just often in the night she goes do deep when I feed her I can hardly wake her to get her burp up, but once laying, shell wake 10/20/60/90 mins later screaming pulling her legs up, and to be honest she does really cry much so I know it's pretty serious when she does. Xx

Mjtay Tue 28-Feb-12 16:44:14

Doesn't cry much. Damn I phone!! Xx

cmm Tue 28-Feb-12 20:02:22

Just wanted to say thankyou again for this thread! Am on night ten and last night he slept 730-4 and the. 415-6.15! The only thing think I've done wrong is moved to next stage too soon and so ended up going bsck which shouldnt have done but have now! Anyway, he's falling asleep without crying at all now and usually between 10-20 mins!!!! Amazing! Will keep you posted. Xx

nectarina Thu 01-Mar-12 19:30:10

cmm oh good, thats going very well so soon.

I think I'm going to be needing advice though - DD is sleeping through most nights, and at worst wakes once or twice - but after nearly two months of doing this she still takes 45 mins to go to sleep, and there's always a bit of crying. I know she's not really upset, but I didn't want to hear this at all. Any suggestions?

Mjtay Thu 01-Mar-12 21:29:18

The way I try to look at it nectarina, is if I rock DD off she still moans for while, just cos she's tired, so she may as well be in her cot. Well I was gonna wait till LO was over her cold before attempting this, but last nite thought I'd give it a go as I could always just pick her up!! So anyways, 45 mins of just moaning, not crying! Woke at 3 am and settled again in 30 mins with no feed. Cold woke her sad so calpol, saline drops, failed attempts to suck it out and back off. Was up for 1 1/2 hours in total, so not bad consisting. Naps were taken in her bouncer and car seat away from home, and self settled. This eve was over an hour, but no tears! Happy so far!!

But... What is an ideal routine for feeds and naps for (nearly) 6 month old?! Cannot seem to time her feeds to feed before bedtime bath etc, or ill end up bathing at 7.30!!! She normally wakes 8/8.30 btw TIA Xxxx

BenderBendingRodriguez Fri 02-Mar-12 08:20:05

So I think we're going to start doing this tomorrow night...thought it might help to restate my goals (to myself). Ideally I want DD to sleep in her cot all night and not expect to come into our bed when I go to bed. I am happy to feed her in the night if she's hungry, after all she is still fairly little, but I don't want her to use me as a dummy all night.

She is really stubborn though. I tried some in-the-cot soothing last night after she had been fed (both sides) and put back down fast asleep, then woken up twice and cuddled back to sleep by DH. She will fight going to sleep/being asleep with all she's got. Both times DH put her back down, she was asleep but woke within minutes and started pissed-off yelling. I sat by the cot and soothed for at least ten minutes and she did relax and start to drop off, but shook herself back awake so she could shout at me some more.

Similarly, I put her down for a nap about 20 minutes ago (up since 5am, same as every day). She was asleep but woke within minutes and has been shouting ever since, in a tired and crabby way. I'll be honest, I don't have the energy to go and see to her right now blush because as soon as she sees me she will wake up and demand to be picked up. And she needs to sleep. She has black rings round her eyes. Meanwhile I have a constant headache and am impatient with my 3yo's constant prattling. We can't go on like this.

Mjtay Fri 02-Mar-12 20:51:44

Did u try this bender?! Xx

BenderBendingRodriguez Sat 03-Mar-12 06:04:55

Kind of grin We were going to start tonight as DH and I were both so knackered last night, but when she woke at 11pm DH decided to take action as that's the time she ends up coming into bed with us. She doesn't really need that feed anymore and we want to break the association with feeding at that time followed by getting in our bed, so he alternated soothing in the cot and taking her in the living room (while I laid in bed semi-conscious). She was furious and screamed for about two hours. But she did stay in her cot and fall asleep eventually, and didn't wake till 4.30am.

cmm Sat 03-Mar-12 06:54:19

I can't recommend this sleep training enough. Was night 13 last night and for second night in a row he's slept through!!!!!! I was out last night and apparently he cried a little at 8,9,10 and 1230 when i got in but not eve enough for me to go into him, he seemed to self settle, which I guess is the point of the evening and putting them down awake. He has got easier to put down, first night one hr scream, but now usually 10/20 mins although some nights a lot less. Still got a way to go as still say at the cot with him tapping and stroking tummy, another couple of nights of that and and I'll go to just stroking, then three clear nights and go to just resting hand in tummy, then three clear and arm at side if him then having the clear nights and moving further away from cot and out of room eventually. Think it will take prob another month to get to feeding saying goodnight and walking out of the room but honestly can't believe the transformation. He used to wake soooo frequently like forty mins after feeds, hourly, the most was two hours if lucky! I had taken to bringing him in with me as I couldn't cope.

Thankyou so much for the thread. My friend did it too with her two boys years ago. It honestly is worth trying and persevering!!!!!! Good luck

Ps I kinks there'll be blips do know cant be that smug but at least it proves to me he can sleep smile

MareMeva Sat 03-Mar-12 10:31:17

This sounds like a great idea, but what if your nightly routine is part bf? We have bath, massage, and then go into rocker to sing a lullaby and then have a feed. If boob is removed or, heaven forbid, not produced in the first place, he will pull at my clothes and try to get at it. He usually falls asleep on boob. I then try to put him down. And he usually comes awake and starts screaming. Then repeat, repeat, repeat, until I eventually usually just take him in bed with me. He is nearly 6 months old.

nectarina Sat 03-Mar-12 12:29:44

maremeva hello there. well, I think all of us had exactly the routine you're describing, and feeding to sleep is exactly the thing that you have to stop doing if you want DS to sleep better.
I'd put the feed before the lullaby, put baby down awake, and then stay until baby falls asleep.
Its the feeding to sleep that's the problem - its a wonderful thing when they're very young, but there's a point where they need to be able to go to sleep without your input if they're going to stay asleep. Some people carry on feeding to sleep for ages and put up with frequent night wakings. Its up to each individual to work out when they can't function any more etc (it took me 8 months).

nectarina Sat 03-Mar-12 12:37:40

mjtay sounds like its going very well.
As for a routine, I can't really comment, as we have a loose routine of two naps a day and feeding whenever DD starts pulling at my tights. She (nearly) always has dinner at 5pm to have a play before bedtime to be in bed at 7pm, but the rest of it we play by ear.
I can't really understand the problem of timing your DDs feeds as my DD has never refused a feed at any time, even if its 5 mins since the last! So I feed her straight after dinner, and then before bed, even if there's sometimes only 20mins between the two. Does your DD keep to a straight pattern of feeding, or is it more you that wants to space feeds?
I would work backwards from bedtime with your timings - this is how we decided to have dinner at the unsuitable time of 5pm to make enough time for her to digest food (and calm down!) etc etc before bedtime of 7.

pipoca Sat 03-Mar-12 15:22:46

This thread might well have saved my life (and my sex life!). DD is 9.5 months and has only ever slept through about 4 times in her life, but totally randomly, so I had no idea how to make it happen again. She has been ill (colds, coughs, bronchitis) pretty much solidly since 3 months old and sleeping has been shit since then. She was just begining to drop feeds at 3 months then it all went tits up.

I had bronchitis too this last wk and ended up needing a nebuliser and an inhaler and then with DD waking as much as every 20 mins and not settling for an hour at a time I was really at the end of my tether after 9 months of no sleep and a shitty HG pregnancy before that (and have a 3.11 DS to look after and a business to try to run).

I saw this thead last night just before I went to bed but only had time to read the OP. It sort of stuck in my head, so when DD woke at 1140 at first I bf'd her but then she started doing what she's been doing the last few nights and waking up when I put her in the cot so I thought, "fuck it, what have I got to lose?". I decided not to worry if she woke DS (which has always stopped me from doing anyhting that invloved letting her cry) so put her down on her front (seems to sleep better like this) and patted her bum while shhhhhhing. She seemed really outraged and kept trying to get up like a sealion so I put a hand on her back as a kind of reassurance and shhhhhed and patted. I reckoned the cries were frustration as much as anything. After about 10mins of real screaming she quietened down a bit and was totally asleep after a max of 15 mins.
She squeaked twice at 4am but I didn't even have to get out of bed and then she slept tl 845am!!!!!!

I didn't try it for naps until this afternoon, as we had to go out. She wouldn't nap in the buggy while we were out and then after lucnh she fell asleep while bfing so I put her in the cot. She woke after 15 mins (wind, I think) so I decided to shhh pat as a total of 15 mins all day is not enough. Did the same as before ad sure enough she was asleep within 10 min, without the crazy screaming this time!

I think she needs to relearn how to settle herself to sleep and back to sleep when she wakes.

I still bf to sleep before bed and she always falls asleep on the boob, do you think I should wake her, or try not to let her completely drop off on the boob?

nectarina Sat 03-Mar-12 16:41:19

pipoca instant success! Sounds like you deserve it.
In answer to your question - either would work, although i think its better not to let them go to sleep on th breast at all. Try moving the feed earlier in your bedtime routine and if dd gets sleepy, jolly her awake dhile you feed. Follow with story or lullaby or whatever.

BenderBendingRodriguez Sat 03-Mar-12 17:00:15

great news pipoca! i remember you from the sleep deprivation support thread, really hope your DD continues to relearn her good sleep cos you have surely earned it smile

pipoca Sat 03-Mar-12 20:57:40

Thanks nectarina. Well I did bedtime as usual and she more or less fell asleep on the boob but woke as I moved her, so instead of putting her back on her rocking and shhhing I took her straight to her room and put her in the cot. She was asleep within about a minute with a bit of maoning but not real crying even. Not going to bf at all tonight, just shh and pat where necessary.

Can't believe I didn't do this before.

Bender how are things with you now?

BenderBendingRodriguez Sat 03-Mar-12 21:32:10

So crap grin hence my presence on this thread. We got to the point where she was in bed with us all night, comfort-feeding every 1-2 hours, then getting up at 5am, hardly napping - she has black rings round her eyes like a panda, and the rest of us are pretty joyless. Anyway, I know she can sleep better, I feel it - I actually feel like it's my duty to help her get the better sleep she needs, first and foremost.

She has had better naps today, including a long one in her cot this morning (yay!) and another long one next to me in the bed this afternoon (I also had a cheeky snooze), so am hoping this might have a positive impact on her sleep tonight. Bedtime was good: bf as usual, but put her in her sleeping bag after feeding instead of before, so she woke up a bit; sang a quick song and laid her down in cot, where she had a sleepy play with her bunny; gave her a kiss and left the room as she seemed chilled out, not a sound emerged and she was sparko two minutes later smile I anticipate another protesting wake-up at around 11pm as this is when she's accustomed to feeding, but I will try and stay consistent and say no.

cmm Sat 03-Mar-12 21:35:14

Pipoca - like you can't believe I didn't do this before. My little girl, now five, didn't sleep through until 2 1/2!!!! My little boy was good really until 4 months then for last four months has been terrible. It only took two really bad evenings and now it's ok and he doesn't fall asleep on boob, he was exhausted yesterday evening and I did hsve to get him off as he dozed though! I had always fed to sleep before that and then lowered him into cot slowly and tip toed out of room!
Nectarina - thanks again for thread, it's helped me get evening and nights back!!!! X

jammic Sat 03-Mar-12 21:35:45

We've struggled with DS's (4.5months) sleep since Xmas. It just seemed to be getting worse all the time and we were doing everything and anything to get him to sleep. But he just kept waking up - sometimes every half hour. It was horrible. On Friday, we steeled ourselves and tried PUPD but it just didn't work. It got to a point when he'd scream the second you started putting him back in the cot so we switched to the techniques described here and started calming him in the cot instead. Overall it took us an hour and a half to get him down but prob only 20 mins once we'd switched tactics. He woke up twice in the night (wow!) and we carried the sleep training on thru the night and during his nap times. Tonight, we put him down in the cot awake, sat by his cot and spoke softly to him when he started squirming. He didnt scream or cry once, i didnt get off our bed once and he literally just fell asleep. It took 25 minutes.

I'm sure the road ahead is still very bumpy but I'm just so amazed that this has worked and that he has put himself to sleep. I know a few posts on here would suggest he was too young but I think it totally depends on the baby - our DS is very independent and I'm sure he was getting fed up of being swayed/fed/etc to sleep as much as we were.

Thanks so much nectarina. You've saved our sanity!

cmm Sat 03-Mar-12 21:36:13

Meant to say will prob take another month to get out of room but at least making the progress now!

Mjtay Sat 03-Mar-12 21:53:38

Nectarina... I guess it's me spreading her feeds out. Just something I heard once that said that feeding before last feed Is fully digested can increase colic. And seeing my DD has terrible wind trouble, I try avoid any encouragement!! Last 2 nites tho I've managed to feed before bath. Still woke an hour later tonite tho. She fell asleep after half an hour with more noise tho tonite. But am I being unreasonable..... Hubby has heard me speak of nothing except her skipping pattern. Has seen me sit by her cotside for an hour for 4 nits. Knows that if she needs winding just sit her up in her cot. But tonite, when she woke half hour ago he said he would go. He picks her up, winds her and cuddles her back to sleep, then wants an fing medal!!!! All my hard work arghhhh!! This comes after rows this morn about how I've changed and I'm sharp with him, he doesn't know me any more lalala!!! And tonite for mentioning this, I'm rude, treat him Like shit etc etc!!! He said it's his memory and forgot. But said he picked up her up and realised he was supposed to just sit her up, but continued to cuddle her anyway. Help pls!!! He's doing my head in!!..... Come to bed on my own now sad unheard of xx

BenderBendingRodriguez Sun 04-Mar-12 09:41:58

Hope your DH made it up to you Mtjay.

DD woke at around midnight again last night and was awake for about two hours in all, resisting like mad hmm She was very chilled out at first and definitely responding to being soothed in the cot, but as she is a stubborn beast she made herself wake up and fight grin We ended up kind of alternating soothing in cot and taking her into the living room, as previously. Anyway, she flaked out in the end. Apparently she woke up again at 3am and was up for an hour, but I didn't hear any of that blush

BenderBendingRodriguez Sun 04-Mar-12 09:43:09

Whoops, pressed post too soon...the main point is, she spent all night in her cot instead of in our bed, which means that even though there was wakefulness, we all got better rest. Also I didn't bf until 5am so am hoping she might stop waking for night feeds soon <hollow laugh>

Mjtay Sun 04-Mar-12 12:25:05

Well that is good news!! Atleast that habit is broken!! My DD woke at 3 soothed back off in 30 mins. Again at 6 but was really snotty sad her snuffles woke her again at 6.30. Then it was to our bed and rocking! She is poorly today tho ;( and hubby still hates me. He apologised. But then when I put the monitor on at 3 to see if it was necessary to go in, he woke all bleary eyed looking at it. I said "don't worry baby, go back to sleep". I got back "what did u say that for?" I replied
" just thought u looked sleepy, no point us both being awake" in reply I got "there you go with "u just thought again" " big humpy sigh back to sleep!! I can't win!! Xxx

Pinbeak Sun 04-Mar-12 14:49:37

Hi there. Just wanted to say thanks for this thread as I've begun the technique with my 8 month old DD. This is DC2 and DS was a terrible sleeper, I read all the books etc but doing this method just seems sensible. As I can't stomach CC/CIO.
DD was waking numerous times a night. Sometimes being breastfed back to sleep but that didn't always work. She would happily sleep on me but couldn't put her back in her cot after about 4 am so we'd resorted to my husband driving her around in the car to get some more sleep blush
Anyway night 2 was last night and she only woke once but did take 2 hours to go back down.
A vast improvement so hoping it continues. Great to hear all these other success stories.

OovoofWelcome Sun 04-Mar-12 15:38:47


We are on night 2 of this technique tonight. Last night was exhausting (DS - 6 months - woke at 9pm, 10pm, midnight and then awake until 2.30, woke again at 5am and then 6.45am - urgh). It was his first night in his cot in the nursery; we had been cosleeping before then.

I asked this before, but thought it would be interesting to know if anyone who is having success with this method can comment - do any of you use dummies to settle your LOs? DS needs a dummy to settle but I wonder if it scuppers the technique slightly.

Anyone use them? Or got rid of them whilst sleep training in this way?

BenderBendingRodriguez Sun 04-Mar-12 16:27:08

DD wouldn't take one, for which I am simultaneously grateful and grated-upon grin If he's only just moved out of your bed and your room, I'd definitely leave the dummy in place for now. My DS had his at night until he was 2.5, when he suddenly gave it up of his own accord. A bit of sucky comfort isn't the end of the world IMO.

Mjtay Mon 05-Mar-12 08:39:32

I should think taking a dummy away at this point is probably a bit much. Especially if they're reliant on it.
Well day 5.... After waking at 6 yest morn being really poorly sad ending up in our bed and being rocked etc all day, I reluctantly decided to still try self settle at bedtime, as all that had happened away from her cot. She took herself off In 10 mins. And then geez..... Went thro the night! I went to bed at 10 and the next thing I knew was hubby getting ready for work at 6.30. I can't believe I even slept thro. Must of been do tired from the early start. Best sleep I've had since before I was preggers!! Thank u necarina Xxx

Pinbeak Mon 05-Mar-12 09:12:22

DD doesn't have a dummy (not through want of trying and I'm a dentist grin) but I think the general consensus from the thread is to keep the dummy for the moment.

Last night was night 3 and DD full of cold. She tried to self settle but really couldn't so I picked her up and fed her at 10.30 and 3 but even though she seemed fast asleep when I put her down she screamed when she touched her bed. Had to sit for an hour each time. Has anyone else's DC come to hate their cot after this? Or do you think it's because she's got a cold and just wants me? Wondering how to proceed tonight.....

tootiredtothinkofanickname Mon 05-Mar-12 09:22:12

Pinbeak, I think it's the cold. DS had a cold recently and he fell asleep in my arms downstairs earlier than usual, then I co-slept for 2 nights to keep an eye on his temperature, but as soon as he felt better he was happy in his cot again. I would say tonight just go with the flow, if she is poorly she will only want mummy. I hope she gets better soon though.

We took a step back I’m afraid. DS now settles beautifully in the evening and sleeps well until about 2ish, when he has a bottle. I then managed to settle him in his cot a few nights and thought we were getting somewhere, but now it ‘s taking ages to get him back down. The problem is he wouldn’t settle for DH, although DH tried a few times, he ended up spending more than an hour by the side of the cot. So I would have to do all the night wakings, and I can’t do it, I need to go to work the following day. Plus if we take turns laying with DS DH can do some nights, so if I go to bed early and get up at 5.30-6am I can function.

I feel a bit deflated to be honest, I really enjoy the cuddles but we could do with DS sleeping through. Maybe he isn’t ready yet. I am hoping that if he can self settle in the evening, he will go through when he is ready, as at the moment it’s hunger waking him (he always has his bottle at different times, between 2 -4 am). Is it more important for them to self settle in the evening than at night?

pipoca Mon 05-Mar-12 09:27:53

Yay Mjtay! Brilliant, isn't it?
Well, day 3 and DD resisted last night. Put her down awake after bf and she cried for 10 mins and then I snuck out when she was asleep but she woke again almost immediately. Shhhed and patted for another 5 mins and she slept til 1230ish. Shhhed and patted again for about 10 mins and she slept til 5am. Got her to sleep with shh and pat in about 10 mins and she slept til 920! So, a more disturbed night than before but only awake for 10 mins at a time. I gave her a bit of paracetamol at 5am actually in case the remnants of her cold were still bothering her but I think she's just adjusting to the new routine.
Yesterday she didn't nap at all all morning but I forced shhed patted her to sleep for a nap n the cot in the afternoon and she did an hour and a half.
Tell you wht tho, I'd thought she was ill a lot more than she was. I think (obvious colds aside) she was overtired a lot. for instance, she'd been falling asleep all over the shop (like while sitting on DH's lap) and not wanting breakfast, but since we've doe this sleep thing she's had a little bowl of shreddies and an entire banana for breakfast and eats better throughout the day.

OovoofWelcome Mon 05-Mar-12 13:01:59

Thanks everyone re my dummy question smile - have nothing against the dummy in principle for night times - just think it wakes him up when he loses it. But will definitely keep for now.

nectarina Mon 05-Mar-12 15:28:47

tootired in order to end night wakings I think you have to nightwean. I can understand you being too tired to stay by the side of the cot for an hour in the middle of the night so I suggest that you dilute the bottle with water a bit more every night until its just water. Your DS is hungry in the night, but only because he's used to feeding then. I think this has worked for babies taking bottles.
I would suggest treating each night waking separately - instead of always bringing him into bed with you automatically, see if he'll go to sleep in his cot first. Keep your objectives in mind, even if you revert to old ways.

mjtay that is good news, hope your DH cheers up too.
I would suggest not worrying about colic for the next week and see if spacing makes any difference - I've got a feeling that its an old wives' tale about spacing feeding to avoid colic.

pipoca sounds like its going well for you too. I wonder if we were imagining all kinds of illnesses on DD which were in fact due to overtiredness.

oovoof about the dummy - if dummy falling out is waking up your DS, I would suggest getting rid once he's got the hang of going to sleep by himself - so as soon as possible really. Its too violent for the first night, but a few nights later and it could work.
He'll be in the swing of learning this new technique, so now is a good time to do it. I don't think having a dummy interferes with the plan, but he'll be better off without it. (we introduced a dummy to DD at 3 months, which made a slight improvement to things, but then she rejected it of her own accord 3 months later much to my annoyance - so I haven't got any experience of trying to wean off dummies at this age. Saying that, life is a lot easier without it.)
If you do try this, could you post about it please, because I think there are a lot of other parents asking the same thing?

Mjtay Mon 05-Mar-12 20:23:55

Pinbeak I would say a cold definitely interferes. Yest morn the everything up the creek when DD would settle back into her cot. She was crying full pelt but wasn't hungry. She was poorly with her cold. Took her to our bed and everytime she dozed, she woke crying when the snot blocked her nose again sad rocked off to sleep for all naps. Then down awake at bedtime, off in 10 mins then went thro the nite. Tonite she's been half hour but that was partly me wobdering if wind was unsettling her so sat her up although the was dopey!

Got a feeling it was a one off, but I'll let u know tomorrow!! I agree that it prob is a good time to consider taking the dummy away, once a little more settled into the routine.

I couldnt recommend this technique enough. I wasn't worried about feeding/comforting in the nite. Going thro wasn't something I was longing for, and although I secretly love the cuddles and rocking her off, I knew I had to nip it in the bud while she's still quite small, and can't stand In her cot crying mummy!!

Mjtay Mon 05-Mar-12 20:24:49

Sorry for typos. Stupid iPhone. Hope it makes sense!! Xx

OovoofWelcome Mon 05-Mar-12 21:08:37

Thanks nectarina, I will update everyone on the thread if we can muster up the courage to remove the dummy. At the moment it's a great way to settle him: occasionally it's as simple as replacing it for him and he glides back to sleep easily...am really nervous about removing the one thing that kind of works!

He is so wakeful though. When he wakes in the night without his dummy he doesn't have a strategy of his own to help him resettle.

May try the old Elizabeth Pantley method and gradually remove the dummy just before he succumbs to slumber, once he's a bit more used to his cot.

I do miss being snuggled up to him (we coslept) but this method is the way forward, it enables our babies to sleep alone whilst feeling consistently reassured smile So thanks again nectarina, an amazing alternative to CC.

OovoofWelcome Tue 06-Mar-12 08:50:22

Oh my god. I have to update - DS only woke THREE times last night!

Bed at 6.45pm, settled quickly with his dummy at half eight, breastfeed at 10pm with me (30 mins to settle), bottle with DH at 2.45am (an hour to settle) - and that was it! I woke him this morning shock

Hope it's not a fluke....this method is brilliant grin

cmm Tue 06-Mar-12 09:40:21

That's fantastic!!!! I too am in awe at how his method has helped us!!!! We are night 16 and went down at 730 fed at 1145 the. 545 and then up at 745! And thats not the best night we've had! Thanks again nextarina x

Mjtay Tue 06-Mar-12 11:45:06

Okay!!!!.... So night 5 and she slept thro again!! I woke and checked on her at 1.30 and heard Nowt till 7.30!! Amazing!!! Thank u nectarina!! So pleased for all of u. So nice that other ppl are trying the same, and also getting results. Can't be fluke!! Xxx

nectarina Tue 06-Mar-12 12:52:13

Wow, that's really great.
I'm feeling a bit confused as I feel so sleepy all the time, now that DD is sleeping through. I was less tired when I was coping on 4 hours, am I catching up or what? I expected to feel full of energy, and instead I just feel tired with no motivation whatsoever.

cmm Tue 06-Mar-12 13:39:04

I absolutely agree! Think it's that you don't sleep as well as you know you're up so much and then when you're not you relax into a better sleep! That's my theory anyway!! I often seek really tired too! X

BenderBendingRodriguez Tue 06-Mar-12 13:43:52

I think overtiredness can lead to a kind of wired feeling, a bit like a caffeine buzz. Then when you get back to good sleeping, you have an energy crash.

We have lapsed the last two nights and taken her into our bed blush It's so cold in our bedroom, plus she's teething, and there is a little bit of me that's thinking 'she's so young, a little bit longer of cuddles and closeness can't hurt'. Will probably try again at some point soon; the technique is definitely working, in that she's much better at self-settling and seems to be sleeping a bit better generally smile

pipoca Tue 06-Mar-12 16:09:18

still working for us here (she woke twice last night at around 1am and 5am but was patted and shhed back to sleep within 10 mins each time, no picking up or feeding). Have decided to go the whole hog and do naps too and she's slet 1.5 hrs in her cot this morning (a world record!!) and is now 1hr 10 mins into an afternoon nap in her cot. Both times took less than 10 mins of pattig to get her to sleep.
I really feel like a new woman, like I've got my life back. It's fantastic, I can't tell you how glad I am I read this thread and took this step.
Stick with it ladies, it is so worth it.

Mjtay Tue 06-Mar-12 20:29:08

Ah well done pipoca!! I have been making my DD take herself off fir naps since starting this. They are just never in get cot. Rocked her off twice in 5 days! Not bad going!! I fight even get a whimper out of her tonite! She was deep asleep by 15 mins. Sure she wouldnt of noticed if I wasnt there!!
I know what u mean nectarina!! I'm like that too. Don't feel any different! Think ur body just copes, cos were designed to do so. Bet ud know about if hourly wakes suddenly started!! Eek xxx

Mjtay Tue 06-Mar-12 20:30:06

So sorry stupid phone again. 'didn't' even get a whimper xx

rrreow Wed 07-Mar-12 10:06:54

Thanks for this! We tried something similar around 6 months which worked fairly well, but DH is terrible with being woken up at night (it really triggers emotional stuff from his past for him), so I got back into the habit of putting DS on the boob as soon as he wakes up so as not to disturb DH.

Now DS is 10 months and although he doesn't wake up & feed as many times as he used to (from 7 times down to 2), he still needs lots of comforting and coaxing back to sleep. Although he starts off in his cot most of the time (and I've tried not feeding to sleep anymore), he will often wake up after a few hours and not go back to sleep without boob / co-sleeping. In the short run I don't mind all this, but in the long run I'd really like him to self settle. He's in our room at the moment, but we are planning a DC2 at some point and would like DS to be in his own room well before then so as not to have difficult changes happening at the same time for him (and us).

Anyway, so we need to try and tackle this once again (and will have to also deal with DH's sleep/waking up difficulties.. eek) and I found it SO helpful to read from some of the comments that some of your DCs also cry cry cry when they wake up and won't be settled apart from with breastmilk. That makes me feel so much better as now I know that's just normal and something we can get through by getting him used to being patted/talked to for comfort.

Is it weird to say I'm actually kind of excited to try this again now?!

OovoofWelcome Wed 07-Mar-12 10:28:12

So inspired to read of your successes, Mjtay, pipoca and everyone!

nectarina I guess our bodies adapt to the lack of sleep, and then need a bit of time to get accustomed to a more normal amount again?

We had a mixed night. DS woke every hour (settled with dummy) until a feed at 10.30pm - after which he refused to let me put him down, and screamed and cried furiously each time I attempted it :-( After about an hour and a half of trying - feeding a little more, trying again, more wild crying, dummy spat out angrily each time, me quietly crying too, feeling miserable - DH got up and took over, settling him fairly quickly.

(DH has the week off and is doing the midnight - 7am shift at the moment smile)

The good bit is DS then slept for about 5 hours in a chunk! Settled fairly easily after half a bottle. And was awoken by us at 7am again too.

I have a question though, wonder what your thoughts are everyone? :

When I settle DS at 7pm, I give him a feed at half six-ish and he gets very sleepy and drowsy on the boob. I then put him in the cot when he is nearly asleep and give him his dummy. I know this isn't in keeping with the technique - he does know he is in his cot but hasn't gone from wide awake to sleeping in there.

However, at nap times, he does get put in his cot awake, is given his dummy, and goes to sleep after a bit of quacking and complaining (with me stroking his head then leaving the room when he has quietened). He sleeps for about 30 mins each nap.

I wonder whether I should change the boob/settle/cot routine at night? It's been our routine since he was born and I do love quietly spending that time close to him. But perhaps it would be better if he had a feed earlier, before bath perhaps.....and then went in his cot and was settled with dummy?

I feel a bit loathe to do it because I know we both enjoy the end-of-the-day closeness. But perhaps it will help him?

Thanks for any thoughts! smile

Mjtay Wed 07-Mar-12 20:36:50

Oovoof... IMO I think as long as he is awake when he goes in his cot, and naps he is awake, so he's still learning to get himself to sleep so I wouldn't worry too much. I now, when possible, feed dd before her bath, as suggested by nectarina, as wind is a big issue for us, and it gives her time to bring it up.

Nectarina... 3 nights undisturbed sleep, and I'm so tired today! Strange!!!

Rreow.. U given this a go tonite?!

Pipoca... All good still?! Did u do naps today?! Xxx

tinyk Wed 07-Mar-12 22:24:35

Hi everyone. I'm doing this for our night wakings at the mo - this is night two and so far is worse than usual!!! Anyone else found that? I'm looking for a ray of light to follow ... sad

pipoca Thu 08-Mar-12 00:23:02

Day 6 and the worst night so far. Took a while to get her down as she seemed to toss and turn a lot, 15 mins patting and shhhing then she woke after 5 mins and had to do another 15-20mis patting. Woke at 12 and has been awake til now (1.15am) I've tried patting, shhhing and shhhing only and jus sitting in the room. Even tried bf but she wasn't really interested. finally given her some paracetamol in case it's her tooth and just left the room. She's kind of gone waah waah a bit but is now quiet. Has steeled my resolve not to bf at night, cos it doesn't even seem to be a comfort and she certainly doesn't need it, food wise.
Hopefully she'll stay asleep for a bit now cos she can't have any more paracetamol til at least 6am. A bit disappoiting really, but she has seemed a bit miserable today so hopefully it's just the tooth cutting through. Don't think my patting and shhhing is helping at all tonight, she seems better just left. All quiet, only two little waah waahs when I left the room.
now typically I wide afriggingwake.

rrreow Thu 08-Mar-12 13:09:36

Pffft tried this last night. Feeling positive but it was tough! At least I got a lie-in this morning (although DH was annoyed.. we work from home, supposed to start work at 9am, but was more like 10.30am this morning).

DS went down a treat. Did bedtime routine, put down in his cot. He took about 45 mins to settle but it was mostly just him playing in his cot. I talked to him a lot in a soft voice, suggesting he lie down and close his eyes (don't think he actually understands this yet haha) and singing to him (which he loves! He gets a big smile on his face). Only a tiny bit of crying towards the end and then he dropped off.

The night wakings were something else though. First waking (about 2.5 hours after he fell asleep), I put him on the boob. Kind of think that wasn't the right thing though, as he can usually do more like 4-6 hours between feeds. It was probably a comfort feed, but then he does tend to take his time.. so I don't know for sure. Put him back in his cot afterwards. Then he woke again about 3 hours later at which point we did the comforting with voice/patting/singing but no picking up. That was the toughest bit. Took about an hour of him crying. He was pretty upset sad But he did drop off to sleep again, and no boob involved, so yay!

Then he woke again 2 hours later, but that's his usual morning feed, so I fed him at that point and then let him sleep the rest of the night (another 2 hours) in our bed (as I knew he'd be up for the day otherwise and I really needed that sleep!). He was smiling at me loads when he woke up so at least I also don't have to worry he hates me after letting him cry! Lol.

Overall I'm quite confident about getting him off to sleep by himself. It's just the night wakings that really need some work!

OovoofWelcome Thu 08-Mar-12 16:57:28

pipoca weirdly it's day 6 for us too and DS had the worst night yet. He woke countless times; there were a couple of three hour stretches I think (is all a blur of tiredness...) but he was so restless.

Although, he had his first ever two hour nap this morning - yes TWO hours I can't believe it, usually it's only 30 mins! I woke him then, too, because I didn't want him to start thinking about swapping day for night or anything crazy!

So even though last night was really difficult, we are still seeing changes.

rrreow seems like your DS can self-settle a treat, an excellent basis to build on. Our DS is dummy-reliant although he must be doing a bit of dummy-free self-settling in the night in order to sleep for slightly longer chunks, I guess...

pipoca Thu 08-Mar-12 17:31:54

I tried the going in and out of the room shhing and one hand on her back but not patting...leaving for short periods and coming back in at longer intervals. seemed to work ok so hopefully we can gradually move towards just putting her down and she'll settle herself, otherwise the patting I think will just be another crutch and not really solve anything, just change the problem.

Mjtay Thu 08-Mar-12 20:05:47

I think I mite be on night 6 too! Losing count haha!! And been 10 mind so far but not really any signs of sleeping anytime soon. It's playful noises tho, not crying, so big bonus. Last few days I've just put her down and sat few feet away. Don't think she even knows I'm here!! Bless her! Xxx

Mjtay Thu 08-Mar-12 20:07:18

Just realised she's trying to put her dummy In Wrong way round. Prib wouldn't help! Haha xxx

OovoofWelcome Thu 08-Mar-12 20:14:29

Aww! smile

pipoca Thu 08-Mar-12 21:07:21

bless smile

Put DD down earlier tonight and did a bit of shhh and a hand on her back but no patting. Left the room briefly a couple of times but then sat til she dropped off, all in all took 15 mins, so hoping we're back on track.

Mjtay Thu 08-Mar-12 21:44:58

Ah that's good news pipoca! Well done. Think we were bout 20 mins in the end. Felt like forever after the last few nights!! Haha soon take it for granted!! Even thinking of going out for dinner with dh next weekend if she carries on like this! bless her heart!! Xxx

cmm Fri 09-Mar-12 19:35:14

Hope all getting on ok?! Have had a few night where he's woke more again but still going off really well. Then last night slept through! Now in room settling him now, he's happily babbling away so I'm catching up on messages! I'm on hands resting on his tum rather than stroking tum now, baby steps! X

QwertyQueen Fri 09-Mar-12 22:04:12

Oh I am so glad to have found this thread!
DD is 10 months old, and also only falls asleep when BF.
Going crazy and was planning on stopping BFing because of it.
W I will try this tomorrow night. I did one day of CC and hated it, this feels more "me"
Will report back!

tinyk Fri 09-Mar-12 23:02:02

Well, made it through nights two and three, but he's a fighter! Although he's falling back to sleep more easily (sometimes just with a shh from the other side of the room, as i was sleeping in with him) he's also waking up WAY more often (every 1hr-1.5th). This was why we stopped the first time we tried to move him into his own room- after a week he was still progressively worse each day. However, I have a night off and he's got a cold which DH is dealing with so it can only look brighter tomorrow... smile

Those with kids with dummies... How's it going? He puts his own in his own mouth now, but it's still a cause of major disruption...

tinyk Sat 10-Mar-12 07:35:22

DH made it to 2am before caving and taking him to bed angry. Kid has a major cold. What should we do?!?

OovoofWelcome Sat 10-Mar-12 08:45:55

Hi tinyk how old is your DS? (You probably said upthread...) To answer your dummy question, my 6 month old DS is a dummy-using sleep-fighting little beauty!

It is a bit of a poisoned chalice, isn't it, the dummy - it helps to settle him like nothing else will (well, other than boob of course) but he then wakes for it if he's in light sleep. He can sort of return it to his mouth but not reliably (rarely gets the right angle). So we have to pop it back in and do the old gentle head stroking and nose stroking and shh-shh-shh-ing.

However he IS getting better. He used to wake up loads in the first chunk of the night for the dummy to be replaced - the last few nights he's only woken once or twice, and at about 9.30pm-ish.

Also, the past few nights he has only woken for a feed at half 12 and then again at 5/half 5 shock Amazing. Although foolishly this morning at half 5 I tried to fob him off with a bit of water and then a bit of bottle (as he lay in the cot). He did then settle with the dummy - for 20 minutes confused I kept going back in to settle him and we ended up starting the day at half 6. Urgh.

Anyway I suppose what I am saying that he seems to be gradually getting better. He was waking up every 1.5/2 hours through the night before, and we were cosleeping.

As for your DS's cold, I reckon all bets are off when they aren't well. Whatever you and your DH can do to keep up the new routine is good, but if you cave every now and then you won't be back to square one, you just get back on with the new regime when and how you can.

If (when!) my DS gets yet another cold, I think I'll start off the evenings with the right intentions, but cosleep/sleep on the floor next to him if it all goes to pot.

I have to keep reminding myself that it will be a gentle trajectory, a steady improvement, hopefully; it won't be the sure-fire within-a-week speedy solution that CC is reputed to be. Am hoping we won't have to go the CC route so I have to embrace the slower pace. It's hard though. Tiredness sucks.

We'll get there in the end <determinedly optimistic>

tinyk Sat 10-Mar-12 10:50:15

Thanks Oovoof. Your right, this is a long-haul thing. Heres to sleeping by the May bank holiday weekend grin.

He's 8 months, and the no-more-cosleeping crunch came when he started crawling around the bed in the night, about a month ago (started crawling at 6 mos). Just way too dangerous. Although all he was doing was crawling out of his cosleeper and snuggling up with me, the next step (adventures!) was not one I wanted to experience.

He can always get his own dummy in the day, and actually have seen him do it pretty often at night too but he's been reading Machiavelli I think, as had my DH convinced at 230am that he was dying from this cold and yet a) is not off his food; b) has no temperature and c) was very very happy and well rested this morning envy.

Tonight I will have to explain to DH that being woken up every 1-1.5 hours is NORMAL at the moment, and the fact he has a snotty nose is no reason to take my only sleep in 3 weeks away from me angry. After all, he's the one with the sperm...wink

pipoca Sat 10-Mar-12 15:15:00

yes, totally agree, one of my reasons for trying something else and trying to get her sleeping in her cot instead of cosleeping was the fact that I just couldn't see how it would work once she was crawling. She's not quite but I wanted to try and crack the cot sleeping before she did. I really don't understnd what co sleepers do once they're mobile, how does the child not fall out of bed? confused
Still continuing with nectarina's technique for nights and naps. Going okish although the fucking stupid dog woke dd up after only 20mins this morning and I couldn't get her back to sleep. Last night was good...went to sleep instantaneously after boob at 830ish and then only squeaked slightly at 3.20am, I didn't even have to get out of bed. Long may it continue. Hope everyone else is ok.

QwertyQueen Sat 10-Mar-12 18:10:27

Ok, 1.5 hours in and she is SCREAMINg at me, at what point do I give up?!
She is 10 MO

Josie5 Sat 10-Mar-12 20:03:54

I'm going to give this a go on Monday I've stopped bf to sleep in our bed as prep for this but I know she is going to cry or ages even with me in the room but am having o go to bed when she does - am typing this as babe is asleep now! Am also a total wimp but I need to get a life back in the evenings!!

Mjtay Sat 10-Mar-12 20:05:29

Qwerty... I try to do what I can to calm dd with as little contact as pos. When she cried first few nights I sat her up for a change of scenery and to see if there was any wind, and when i lay her back down she's calmer. I personally can't bare to hear my dd crying, and have rocked her to sleep for 2 naps in 7 days of doing this technique. She was only gonna work herself up, so no point in my eyes.

Now my dd is sleeping thro (thank u so So much nectarina) she only sleeps 11 hours instead of 12/13. 6.30 on a sat morn ahhhh! Is this the norm?! Xxx

QwertyQueen Sat 10-Mar-12 20:54:55

I persevered for another half hour. And she finally settled yay! I wasn't leaving her to scream but shushing her etc. she is very.....very feisty
Let's see what tonight holds!

Mjtay Sat 10-Mar-12 22:00:09

Ah well done!! Should get better and better! Night 7 and 4 mins!! Xx

QwertyQueen Sun 11-Mar-12 18:05:36

OMG!!!! night 2 and asleep in a few minutes!! I put her down and she literally did a little whimper, turned over onto her tummy and that was it!!!!
I will walk you through what I did in case I stumbled across a good combination... I really hope it is not just a fluke and tomorrow night she is back to her crazy ways....
BFd in the dark with her, then nice warm bottle, she drank about half... Then walked around the room with her in my arms singing to her and patting her back at the same time with the theory that when I put her down I would carry on the same rhythm... She was totally relaxed and smiling and I put her down, dhe turned over, i carried on singing .... Then reduced to a hum whilst still patting her but I am sure she was asleep already, then finally just patting her...
I love you nectarina!!!!!
Ps... What I found was because I was all ready for a big session, I didn't rush the feed, or after and i wasnt stressing to put her down and I think maybe because I was so relaxed it helped????

tinyk Sun 11-Mar-12 18:12:46

Anyone else finding this not working so well yet? DH back to his room and I'm "on" again tonight! Here's to wake-ups less frequently than every 1.5hrs. Apparently last night was every 20 min at one point. It can only get better right? I hope so because before we started he slept significantly better... Ah dear. Night 6 here we come!

Josie5 Sun 11-Mar-12 19:28:32

Qwerty queen you give me hope. My babe is also 'spirited' is that the word. Tenacious. She will cry for 2 hours non stop. But tomorrow night am
Going to start baby boot camp. Have White noise machine music box at the ready. Just hope she gives up more easily than last time!

QwertyQueen Sun 11-Mar-12 19:34:46

Good luck Jozie, I so hope it works well for us both!!!
How old is your DD?
and Tinyk how old is your DS? Hope tonight goes better for you

QwertyQueen Sun 11-Mar-12 19:39:06

Ah just seen his age... Poor lad being sick though cant be helping.
I havent started doing this for daytime naps yet... Will try tomorrow.

Josie5 Sun 11-Mar-12 20:08:58

She is 9'months tomorrow. She slept okayish before we went away for 5 weeks at Xmas. Completely ruined any semblance of routine we had!

Suzysnoozy Sun 11-Mar-12 20:23:33

Thank you for this post. I never post anything on here but i'm at the end of my tether with my DS and I was going I came onto the sleep section to ask for advice, this has saved me the trouble and sounds promising.

Suzysnoozy Sun 11-Mar-12 20:24:49

*I meant "and I came onto...." sorry i'm so tired even when I re-read my post I didn't see the mistake!

Mjtay Sun 11-Mar-12 20:35:25

Well here's some more positive thought for u all to keep at it. Night 8 tonite left the room this eve and dd was asleep in minutes, without a peep out of her! And slept thro for 6 nights on the trot now! She must wake, but presuming she settles herself back off! Struggling with the last 3 days 6.30 start tho!! Xxx

pipoca Sun 11-Mar-12 21:12:41

Think we're also on night 8 (lost count). DD went down in about 3 mins tonight. Last night she slept from 830pm to 430am and woke up SCREAMING but managed to soothe her to sleep in about 5 mins and she slept til 720. Managed a big nap (almost 2 hours) in the morning, took about 10mins shh and pat and then a little snooze in the afternoon but not as good cos went to see PILs and she fell asleep in the car on the way home. Now not feeding at night at all and it seems to have been at least part of the problem somehow.

Mjtay Mon 12-Mar-12 06:40:17

Ah pipoca that's brilliant! Well done u. I do think feeding in the night Is a thing of habit. I only discovered one night that she didn't need feeding on the off chance. She was asleep before my milk let down. From there I rocked her off instead, but now we have self settling on our side. She woke up screaming the other night, and I had seen her eyes fluttering on the monitor minutes beforehand. Think it was a bad dream! Don't think she was even really awake! She was so upset I just picked her up and cuddled her. She was soundo when the noise stopped! Xx

rrreow Mon 12-Mar-12 09:52:03

Mjtay I think 11 hours is normal. My DS sleeps 10-11 hours at night on average. He just doesn't do any longer (unless he's ill or something). Unless your DC is tired during the day I wouldn't worry about it, probably a case of every baby is different.

Obsidian Mon 12-Mar-12 10:13:39

Hi there,

Just wanted to pop in and say THANK YOU to nectarina and others for all the excellent advice and support in this thread. I have been reading with interest and this weekend we decided to take the plunge. DD is almost six months and has never been a good sleeper. She has also had a dummy since she was about two months old, to help her get between sleepy and sleep. This has been very useful and I wouldn't change it, but we decided to really go for it and take the dummy away, as well as helping her learn to self-settle.

Well, so far (whispers)... it seems to be going well. Night one was AWFUL. Took over two hours for her to go to sleep, with a reasonable amount of crying, although most of it was angry rather than upset. It was made a lot easier to cope with by the fact that we could be with her the whole time and reassure her. We also picked her up for a cuddle a number of times when she was really upset. So we never felt we'd abandoned her and I hope she never felt frightened or alone.

Night two she went to sleep without much fuss at all in FIFTEEN MINUTES!!!! Am still in shock, although willing to accept it was a coincidence/luck until it happens again! Have everything crossed for tonight..

She's also sleeping longer at night, due to the fact we feel happier to leave her if she's only grumbling. She's managed to self-settle quite a few times now overnight, and last night managed 7ish until 3ish without our help - this is AMAZING compared to what she was like. It's also partly because we're not rushing in every few minutes to check if she needs the dummy back in!!

How is everyone finding the technique with naps? We tried yesterday morning and she resisted for an hour, so we ended up rocking her to sleep in her bouncy chair. We then wimped out for the afternoon nap and timed it so we were driving! Going to try again in a minute but not looking forward to it! Any advice on nap time would be much appreciated!

Looking forward to continuing to read about everyone's progress, and really hoping last night wasn't a one off!

Thanks again all thanks

Obsidian Mon 12-Mar-12 10:53:36

Argh, just been screamed at for half an hour as I tried to put DD down for a nap, in her lovely cot in her lovely room with lovely music/lights/story etc. You would think I'd thrown her down the stairs, the amount of fuss she was making! I've now given up and am rocking her in the bouncy chair. Feel like a bit of a failure, but I couldn't listen to her so upset anymore!

Do I keep trying or give up for naps and just use the bouncy chair/pram/car?? I don't understand why she can do it at night but not during the day?!?! I realise this is a better way around, but it doesn't seem to make any sense!

pipoca Mon 12-Mar-12 14:48:00

last night (night 9?? not sure) wasn't great. She cried out at 2ish but settled but then went ballistic at 5 and altho I could soothe her to sleep relatively quickly, the miute I stopped atting she woke. Gave up at 6am and took her down to feed her. She fell asleep for 20 mins at about 9ish and then I got her to sleep at 1030, only for her to wake 30 mins later. I think it's teeth or tummy ache or both as she's been really possetty. Given up on afernoon nap for now and sent her out for a walk with DH.

Mjtay Mon 12-Mar-12 21:21:10

Obsidian... My DD has never taken her naps in her cot. I'm a hairdresser and have done home hair 3 or so days a week since she was 6 weeks old. So her naps are usually taken in the car, her bouncer, or at home her swing. I think If I tried to put her in her cot I think she would be very confused! Although it would be interesting as a test cos she's taken herself off again in about 3 mins tonite. Bless her!! But I have changed the way I deal with naps. I used to rock her to sleep, especially when doing hair, for speed, but she now takes herself to sleep. I've noticed more so in her carseat. She must associate it with naps. Anyway... I think life still carries on and as long as u remember what ur aiming for and don't feed/rock (or whatever u were trying to come away from) then u don't send mixed signals.

Awww pipoca... Is it not just that she's waking earlier now she's having a mote fulfilled sleep?! As my DD now wakes at 6.30 arrrghhhh!!!! Thanks for replying rreow.... Not what i wanted to hear tho.. Haha!!! Xxxx

tinyk Tue 13-Mar-12 04:01:45

We're in the thick of it! Slept really well till 1 (always been the case before, but since starting this we haven't had that bit of sleep either, so basically just back to par), then hour awake/hour asleep. No, we are awake again.... Have I found the baby this method doesn't work for???

Mjtay Tue 13-Mar-12 07:26:46

Oh dear tinyk!!! sad do u make her self settle when she does wake?! It can't work for everyone I guess. But I think it takes more than 10 days with some definately! Xxx

Obsidian Tue 13-Mar-12 08:23:32

Thanks Mjtay. I guess it doesn't actually matter where she naps during the day as long as she gets herself off to sleep without the dummy.. It would be nice if she occasionally napped in her cot though! I think I'm going to forget about naps for now and just let her sleep wherever she wants for a bit. Yesterday was just too distressing sad She got herself so worked up in the afternoon that even walking into her bedroom was enough to set off hysterics. She then wouldn't nap anywhere, even the trusted bouncy chair, so I ended up feeding her to sleep in desperation!

However, bedtime on Night 3 was brilliant again - she took herself off to sleep in about 5 minutes with no dummy and no intervention! And then slept until 3, had a quick feed and nappy change, then back to sleep on her own until 7. So am over the moon about the improvement in night time sleep. I think she's still waking up every few hours, but then managing to self-settle - AMAZING.

Perhaps I'll try her in the cot again for naps in a week or so, when she's more used to self-settling at night. It just seems so strange that she is happy in her cot at night and during the day if she's playing, but as soon as it's nap time she goes demented - HOW DOES SHE KNOW??!!

Mjtay Tue 13-Mar-12 08:50:41

I'm sure they just don't want to miss out on anything! Xxx

tinyk Tue 13-Mar-12 09:49:42

Things are always worst at 4am I'm sure! Just feel like after a week I'm only just back at square one - but I'm sure it's because of the cold and DH giving up on Sat and Sun. Our problem is also different, as I didn't feed to sleep and bedtime has always been brilliant, but from 10pm, and latterly 1am onwards we've co-slept. So he's asking why he's all alone. I will keep at it! I think that possibly me coming over and cuddling him in the bed is a problem. Instead I will leave him alone, but stay in my bed on the other side of the room, only going over to calm him if he gets really upset.

For those with nap problems, we used to nap in our own bed no problem but no he won't. He just farts around for an hour and then falls asleep for 20min. I remember this from when we changed him from sleeping full time, but we got them back once nights settled down. Given nights are such a faf I'm just getting him to nap wherever and whenever, hopefully for 3hours a day, and even if it means cosleeping the nap. I try to do one in his bed, the last of the day when he's really tired but I know he's already had good naps. I can fix it later, but if I do it all at once he'll be in such a state and so will I! But DH and I have discussed using the Easter weekend to finally crack open the whole shebang, as one can do days and one nights, and he's off for the 4 days.

OovoofWelcome Tue 13-Mar-12 12:27:47

That sounds like a good idea tinyk - my DH had last week off and did the midnight - 7am shift, and it really helped. DS came to accept he wasn't getting boob!

On Sunday night DS had ONE feed, astonishing, at 12.30am, and then woke at half six, so it was an incredibly good night. I heard him stir and give a few cries at 3am and then self settle, too shock....I thought, ah, we've cracked it!

However last night he woke for his dummy a few times, then for a feed at 11 (took an hour to settle him too), and again at half four (quick feed and settle, back in bed by 5am, up at 7am).

So a little backwards step, but things are SO much better than they were a week ago....and I feel so much less achey and stiff because I can sleep in whatever position I like!

Mjtay Tue 13-Mar-12 14:27:01

Oovoof well that's only really one night feed, so fantastic news. I heard murmuring at 2.30. I guess that's what she always does and takes herself back off, I just don't normally hear her haha!!

Just to see what happened, I put DD in her cot for her nap. She played with her dummy for a few mins then just laid in silence. I thought she was asleep and peered over the edge and she just looked smiling. Another 5 mins and she was soundo. So I guess she doesn't mind where she Is for her naps. Which is a good thing I think! Xxxx

pipoca Tue 13-Mar-12 15:11:29

all gone a bit to pot here as DD has a stonking cold and a temp. She did v well last night considering ...straight to sleep at 830pm, woke at 430am and seemed hot, but no temp, finally asleep again at 530am, til waking at 720. Got her to nap for an hour in the morning, but then spiked a fever of 101F at midday and had another nap of 40 mins after some paracetamol, but has been vomming a lot since then so not going to worry about any more sleeping today, even though she seems tired. Think it might be a bit of a pants night tonight though as she's not very well, bless her.

Mjtay Wed 14-Mar-12 07:45:54

Ah pipoca! I'm so sorry to ur DD is poorly! I think u just need to give them the comfort they crave when they're poorly sad hope ur night wasn't as bad as expected. And agree u prob got off lightly night before circumstances considered!
My night wasn't great either. DD cold seems to be making a reappearance. She woke at 1am crying. I sat her up to calm her down then she kept trying to get back to sleep, but her blocked nose kept waking her. Ended up giving calpol, vapour rub and and finally went back off. Then 6.30 wake. Arghhh! I'm so tired! Xxxx

OovoofWelcome Wed 14-Mar-12 08:10:15

Me too mjtay - we had a terrible night! I feel broken, urgh.

DS woke countless times, needed dummy, refused a bottle from DH at 11pm, cried furiously until I breast fed him and then it took until 1am to settle him. At one point he was on all fours rocking, practicing his pre-crawl position and smiling with delight. But mostly furious crying.

Then woke at 3am, dummy, 3.30am, feed, and several dummy replacements to settle. Then awake at 6am. I could cry sad

Sorry to hear your LOs aren't well pipoca and mjtay. Hopefully normal service will be resumed shortly!

Have no idea why DS had such a big regression last night. Maybe the dummy needs to go? He was doing so well though...

OovoofWelcome Wed 14-Mar-12 08:22:20

obsidian have just reread your posts about taking the dummy away - seems to have worked brilliantly!? How are the naps going now?

I'm so nervous about removing his dummy - its the only reliable way to help him sleep other than boob, but it's causing as many problems as it solves!

Mjtay Wed 14-Mar-12 08:36:48

Awwww oovoof I feel tired just reading ur post! Makes my night sound a breeze!! I reckon ull have a few days like that then he'll settle right down. Bet it's developmental.

The dummy removal is scary. My DD settles with her thumb, but even I'm not brave enough to take it away. Very often one will soothe when the other wont. But I am lucky the thumb goes in at night when she loses it/I move it out of the way xxx

OovoofWelcome Wed 14-Mar-12 09:58:52

Ah I wish DS would suck his thumb! He sort of does now and again but it doesn't seem to help him relax into sleep.

I wondered if it was developmental, he brought his knees forwards this morning when trying to crawl - usually he rocks on all fours for a bit then manoeuvres himself backwards, pushing and sliding. He's nearly there.

Hopefully he will get back on track. This is tough. Especially now DH is back at work and can't help quite as much.

Obsidian Wed 14-Mar-12 10:27:22

Hi Oovoof smile

Sorry to hear you had such a bad night. It's just the worst feeling when you get up in the morning after a night like that isn't it? We had an okay night, although DD was awake and upset between about 10.30 and 11.45 for some reason - partly wet PJs and partly wind I think! Eventually settled and then I didn't feed her until 5.30, although heard her grumbling a bit around 3.

Taking the dummy away was scary and quite stressful, but I'm convinced it was the right thing to do, for us anyway. Fingers crossed, bedtimes are still going well. We've done four nights of 'the plan', and it's taken her (to go to sleep on her own): 2 hours (with on and off screaming), 15 minutes, 5 minutes, 15 minutes (with no screaming on nights 2 to 4), so she seems to be managing really well. I think the fact that she's self-settling at bedtime (7ish) is really helping her self-settle in the night, plus because we don't have to think about the dummy anymore, we're not getting up to go to her unless she actually cries.

She has tea at 5, bath at 6, bottle at 6.30, then stories and cuddles until she's really calm. We then put her in her sleeping bag, read Goodnight Moon and say good night. At the moment we're staying in the room watching her go off to sleep and she rolls around all over the place, usually ending up on her side or on her front. We only intervene if she cries, and so far have only needed to on the first night. If she wakes up upset before 3am, DH goes in first and tries to soothe her back to sleep. If that doesn't work in 10 minutes, I give her a quick feed, unlatch her before she's asleep and put her down. If it's after 3am I go and feed, unlatch, put down, letting her get herself back to sleep each time.

Naps, however, are quite a different story!! Not going well at all, but some gradual progress if I try to be optimistic. Sunday and Monday she screamed blue murder when we tried to put her in the cot during the day. We tried a calm half hour before, story, cuddles, PU/PD, calming words and tummy rubbing, but she fought and fought until we gave up and used the pram, car or bouncy chair, all of which thankfully work, due to movement I guess. So for some reason she seems to miss the dummy more during the day confused.

Going to keep trying though. This morning I put her down in the cot about 9.30 and she messed around doing some of her bedtime ritual moves, e.g. scratching/punching mattress (!), rolling over, sucking blanket etc. reasonably quietly for about 20 minutes. Then the theatrics started shock, so I gave up again and brought her down to the bouncy chair. She fell asleep about 10 with some fairly vigorous bouncing. So, it feels as if we're making very small steps towards naps in the cot. Not that it matters that much where she naps, but I would like her to be able to self-settle for naps and hopefully nap for more like 1 1/2 hours rather than 30/40 minutes. At least in the bouncy chair I can extend her nap a bit and hopefully get her used to two longer naps rather than three or four short ones, before tackling the cot again!

Baby steps...

Hope that helps grin. It's helped me to write it all down actually. Sometimes it feels like it's all a disaster (especially when she's crying hysterically because she's really tired but refuses to go to sleep!), but going through it has helped me see that we're definitely going in the right direction!

OovoofWelcome Wed 14-Mar-12 14:59:26

Thanks obsidian smile

I think getting rid of the dummy, as you so bravely did, is the way forwards, definitely. DS has had some big changes recently though - started solids two and a half weeks ago, stopped cosleeping and went in his cot in the nursery a week and a half ago, is on the verge of crawling....I think I shall wait and see and remove the dummy when the time feels right.

It may well feel right after another night like last night though! If we're all awake and exhausted anyway we may as well be trying something positive!

I hope your LO gets the hang of naps soon - is surely only a matter of time? How old is she btw? Your DD's ability to self-settle sounds incredible smile She can do it and she'll make the connection with day sleep very soon I bet. Well done for teaching her so well.

Everyone on this thread seems to be making great progress (even us, despite last night: DS has had two nights with only one feed and peaceful stretches) and with such a good ethos - controlled staying rather than controlled crying. Controlled comforting maybe (*nectarina*, there's a book in this smile).

Obsidian Wed 14-Mar-12 19:44:31

Not brave, just desperate wink

Sounds sensible to wait until your LO is more settled and going through fewer big changes. I'm sure you'll know when the time is right. Like Nectarina said earlier in the thread, I think you need to be really fed up and feel that nothing you're doing is working anyway, so you may as well go for it!

DD is 25 weeks, so just coming up to 6 months. How old is your DS? DD has been on solids since 18 weeks blush as I thought I'd just try a little bit and she looked at me as if to say 'FINALLY', so we carried on very slowly and she's taken to it really well. I wonder if that's having a bit of an impact on night time sleep? She's also been in her cot in her own room from 6 weeks blush so had plenty of time to get used to it! Neither of these were decisions I thought I'd make before she arrived, but that's just the way it went, and I don't regret either one.

She has self-settled again tonight in five minutes - I'm so proud of her! Not sure we taught her. She was just ready and we gave her the chance. Sometimes these moments miraculously coincide! It was the same with moving her bedtime earlier to 7pm - she just suddenly seemed ready at about 14/15 weeks, so all that worrying up to then had been pointless!

Maybe she'll be ready to nap happily in the day soon - MAYBE?!?! She battled against sleep again at 1pm, even though she was obviously shattered. Her Grandpa took her out in the pram and she fell asleep within minutes, and stayed asleep for 2 and a half hours!! So she can do long naps, just not without motion yet! She did go in her cot happily for ten minutes before the screaming started though, so will keep trying!

It is great to hear so many people on this thread are making progress, isn't it?! I just have to stop being so bloody impatient and expecting changes to happen overnight. She's a determined little thing ('wilful' my Mum calls her grin) and not one to be gently persuaded into anything. She'll get there in her own time.. I hope!

Mjtay Wed 14-Mar-12 19:54:23

Oh I'm sure she will!! I do think the self settling at night has a knock on effect to the naps. So fingers crossed!! So glad everyone appears to be making progress. Having a slightly tricky one tonite. Cold not helping and 2 1hr max naps aren't either!!!! Ho hum xxx

tinyk Thu 15-Mar-12 10:26:27

Hi everyone! Glad there's been lots of success. We too have had a breakthrough! Here's what happened:

After a week of gradual withdrawal, with no real improvement, we did a night of controlled crying. I had no choice really, as I have a terrible cold, and having me beside him would just have kept DS up as i coughed, spluttered and blew my nose all night. TBH a couple of times the only thing that got me out of there was a runny nose or irrepressible cough. First wake-up he cried for one hour, same as when I'm next to him, but honestly the last 20min were barely crying. He then slept for 2.5 hours grin, vs the usual one hour. Then he woke up and we did CC again- 20min and he was out until 6am, at which point i fed him and brought him in to us (too early to get up, too late for a fight). Amazing. It sucked for me, I had to have a little cry and a cuddle from DH, but i honestly think for DS it was better than me being there, as previously he was confused by why I was visible but not cuddling him, whereas without me there he just got on with it. He certainly cried significantly less, and less hard.

Last night, night 2 - one wake-up. I went in right away (he sounded a bit unhappy) patted him, lay him down, and left... He was asleep by the time I got to my bed. Twice more I heard him shout one shout in the night, but I think it was in his sleep. He must have woken up a bit more as 5 of his 7 pacifiers were on the floor (one near the door- what did he do, throw it?!?) but he didn't even squeak.

smile I think he only took to it so well because we had spent a week in there already together, doing Nectarina's technique so he was comfortable with the cot and room, and had learned to self settle (and find his own dummies, and decide he liked to lie on his front!)with help, he just didn't like doing it wink.

So i just thought I'd share this success story in case there's anyone else reading who's progress has stalled, or who's child is as sure of his own mind as mine is grin.

I'm sure we will still have some tough nights, but I feel we've turned a corner!

Sorry for the long post!

rrreow Thu 15-Mar-12 15:03:56

Well done tinyk really sounds like you're having some success!

We were doing quite well for nearly a week (I think, I'm losing track of time now), but last night was bad. About 2 hours of crying due to teething I think as he'd also been supremely grumpy during the day, and hardly any naps. We gave DS some Calpol and he settled a bit after about 20 mins but just wouldn't go back in his cot. We put him in our bed and he still continued crying for another 20 minutes or so - which at least reassured me that I wasn't 'spoiling' him or not being strict enough, as I really think he was in pain.

It's difficult though as you're never really SURE whether the crying is just because he doesn't know he can settle himself or because there is an actual physical reason. And then afterwards I felt guilty for not giving him the Calpol sooner!

Anyway, tonight's another night. He seems more cheerful today so hopefully the teething will have subsided and we can get back on track.

Obsidian Thu 15-Mar-12 18:58:59

Good to hear you're making progress tinyk. Any success stories give me hope!

We had a pretty rubbish night last night. She went off to sleep fine on her own in about five minutes at 7, and then didn't wake until 1. Great, I thought, but then she wouldn't settle without a feed, then same again at 2, then 2.30 and so on. In the end I brought her into our bed and she settled next to me, but I still had to keep feeding her, probably every hour just to stop her crying and send her off to sleep. I'm really hoping it was a one off and she was teething or having a growth spurt or something, because I think we did everything wrong. It was just that once it was clear she wasn't going to settle without a feed, I lost the will and just wanted to do whatever got us all the most sleep!

Had a nap nightmare today too. Only had two naps of 40 minutes each - once in the pram at about 10, after fighting it for half an hour, and once in her cot at about 2, but only because she fell asleep feeding (argh!) as she'd got herself so tired and refused to sleep before her feed. She's now been awake since 2.40 and so is shattered, has been fussing since about 5.30, not taken her solids as well as usual and just generally been a PITA. DH putting her to bed now. I can't hear any screaming, so am hoping she's just conked out!

Really hope we haven't set ourselves back too much as everything seemed to be going really well until last night sad Have cried twice today over the whole thing. It just seems impossible to work out when she needs to sleep during the day and I feel like I keep getting it completely wrong. She just gets so upset when I try to help her go to sleep and it feels awful, but I KNOW she's tired. Feel completely confused about it all now and don't know whether she needs two naps or three, or for how long, or anything confused.

Hope you've all had better days. Fingers crossed we all have a good night wine

Mjtay Thu 15-Mar-12 19:32:27

Plsed to hear success stories! rreow we all know when our LO are off colour, and I think at times like that u just have to go with it. Obsidian.... Relax smile take a deep breath. Pls don't cry!! ... On sure last night was a one off. Thinking of u this evening. Don't sets itself out about naps. I really don't have any timings. I just put her to kip when she starts rubbing her eyes or Been awake 2 1/2 hrs max, whichever comes first. She may have 2, she may have 4 depending how long she sleeps for and how the day pans out! Just don't let get overtired. Are u okay?! Xxxx

watermint Fri 16-Mar-12 19:23:59

have been lurking on this inspiring thread and tonight decided to go for it with my 6 month ds. please can i have some words of encouragement! what were everyone's 1st nights like? 40 mins in and screaming still. im a real wimp when it comes to crying and keep getting tempted to just feed him to sleep again...

sorry lack of grammar - on phone.


OovoofWelcome Fri 16-Mar-12 21:02:59

obsidian I have had my fair share of tearful moments when I feel utterly exhausted and a bit defeated about DS's sleep (or lack thereof!). Sounds like you had a bad night and did what you could to get some sleep - we are allowed to be flexible smile

Now my DS is six months I can get unsure about how long he should be awake in the day. Often I put him down for a nap when he seems quacky and tired after an hour and a half of being awake but then wonder whether he would nap for longer if he stayed up longer....but if he seems annoyed and is rubbing his eyes and/or yawning then I figure there probably isn't any point keeping him up. He is a really active little boy so he wears himself out quite rapidly it seems.

If he gets very vocal and cross when I put him down I do the 'return and settle' thing - comfort him until he's calm, leave the room, return after 30 secs/a minute if he gets cross again, comfort again....it always works, even if sometimes it takes longer than others!

watermint keep going! The first night is hard but so worth it!

tinyk fantastic you're making such great headway!

rreow hope tonight is better....

And mjtay thanks for being so positive smile

We're having real ups and downs here with DS though - only natural I guess. He has a cold now and is a bit out of sorts, so sometimes it takes ages and ages to settle him. Other times, hardly any time at all.

But he has had a couple of nights (since we started this a couple of weeks ago) where he has only fed ONCE, and then had to be WOKEN UP AT 7AM!

In comparison to him waking up every 90mins/2 hours through the night and feeding - which is how he was before we started - that is incredible progress!

I always find myself at the beginning of each evening simultaneously thinking, "Oh god, don't let it be an awful night..." and "This is it - tonight he'll sleep through - I can feel it!"

watermint Sat 17-Mar-12 19:26:26

Just to update - the first night took 45 mins of full on screaming, it was horrible, but so glad I persevered as tonight took about 25 mins of him playing happily in his cot followed by 10 mins on of crying (no screaming) and now asleep.. can't believe the difference from last night! Will have to see what the night holds now, but a good start whatever happens. Thank you for this thread!

Obsidian Sat 17-Mar-12 19:50:03

Thanks for the kind words smile

Probably shouldn't have posted when I was feeling so stressed! Have had a better couple of nights so everything seems a bit rosier. Plus have been for spa and massage day today, which has been a wonderful break. Really missed DD but appreciated her more for having a bit of 'me' time! She had a lovely 'Daddy Day' too grin.

Last night she took a while to go to sleep - about 40 minutes - but then slept from 7.45 until 5.15 without requiring our intervention. She whimpered a few times, but then self-settled. WOW.

Naps still all over the place, but going to try and relax a bit about daytime sleep as it doesn't seem to have an obvious effect on the nights. Will just use the cot-refusal as an excuse to get out and about with the pram in this lovely weather!

Hope you all have lovely Mothers' Days thanks and all the LOs give us the most precious gift of all - SLEEP!

OovoofWelcome Sun 18-Mar-12 20:05:56

Heh, obsidian, I read your post happily last night and thought, yeah, tonight might be a lovely peaceful one, followed by a refreshed and rested Mothers Day smile

However it turned out to be an APPALLING night. DS woke for a feed and was awake between 11pm - 12am, and then again at 3.15am; it then took until 5.45am for him to fall asleep again confused Then up again at 7am. Urgh. Why, why!?!? I feel zombiefied.

Really glad you had a brilliant night though, hope last night was similarly good!

watermint - that's amazing! Talk about quick results smile How old is your DS?

Nessler Sun 18-Mar-12 21:00:47

Having spied on this thread a couple of weeks, I decided to give it a go with my spirited 6 month old DS. Third night in tonight and he has gone to sleep in the cot after 20 mins yabbering and no crying! Tears of relief from me though.

We are still doing 2 feeds at night but hoping to phase out one soon as he's really not feeding much then at all, I think a habitual wake up more than anything else. Any tips on this- do people just try to resettle in the cot or offer water, etc?

But overall it is soooo much better, I can actually eat at the same time as DH at night and DS is starting to get some half-decent sleep.

Thanks so much to Nectarina and others, you have been an inspiration!

KittyBump Sun 18-Mar-12 21:28:50

Hi All, good to hear how you are all getting on. I posted earlier on on this thread and have just been catching up. I think I have lost my way with this, we were doing well but DD got a cold and from then we have gone back to feeding to sleep then putting her in the cot and bringing her in with me from midnight onwards - not good.
Just wanted to ask - those of you who said their DC had a cold, did their sleep improve again after they got over the cold? Last night DD woke every 45 mins shock whether she was in the cot, in my bed without me or co-sleeping. I fed her to sleep every time sad she has a bit of a cold and may be teething - I feel like i'll never get her in the cot again.
Also, with all the illnesses her eating has really been affected, she has never eaten much food and now is barely eating anything. My HV says I have to not bf her between meals so she is hungrier but i don't know then whether i should bf her during the night arghhh

OovoofWelcome Sun 18-Mar-12 21:41:38

kittybump sounds like dodgy advice, bf will still be providing most nutrition and calories regardless of how much your LO eats...

As for the sleep I think that you can always get things back on track. And reinstating the cot probably wouldn't be as tough as it was at first (probably still a little bit tricky though, but worth it!).

There are so many variables, we will all lapse so much and swap our approach when we are exhausted. The mothers I know who have 'good sleepers' encounter difficulties out of nowhere, those of us with bad sleepers will see them improve and regress....

Btw my DS has a cold and has had a few bad nights. I think he is a bit better tonight so will see how things stand come the morning!

KittyBump Mon 19-Mar-12 00:38:30

Thank you smile I know bf gives her loads of calories, her weight has always been good. But she is 15 months now and I worry about her iron levels, and I would like to TTC soon so I think I need to cut back bf to get my periods back.
You are right about sleep improving and regressing, I will start again once this cold passes and try to be more positive

OovoofWelcome Mon 19-Mar-12 06:55:14

Ah right, that makes more sense then re your HV's advice. So perhaps she is having too many calories from nighttime Bfs?

It's hard to feel positive when you're knackered. DS woke three times last night - once for dummy, twice for feeds. I did feed him to sleep - I know that isn't the idea! Sigh. And then he woke up at 6am.

Thing is, I don't think we've done the nectarina method completely faithfully. At his bedtime I feed until he is asleep/nearly asleep, put him in the cot - which wakes him but then we give him a dummy and he settles.

Don't feel he has really learnt to self-settle confused Perhaps that's the problem.

nectarina Mon 19-Mar-12 12:14:46

oovoofwelcome - i think from reading your posts that you're right and that he hasn't learnt to self-settle. He has to understand what going to sleep means, rather than drifting off in a beautiful milky fug. I think this is why the only way to make it work is to put him in his cot alert. Also I reckon get rid of the dummy. Short term pain, long-term gain.

thanks Happy Mothers Day everyone

PolkaDottedShoes Mon 19-Mar-12 15:09:31

Hi everyone. I'm having a nightmare with my twins. There have always been poor sleepers and have been rocked and comforted a lot at night time from an early age due to colic etc. They are 10 months old now and sleeping with us in our bed. This at first started as for part of the night as DH and I were so tired with them waking a stupid amount of times in the night. It has now got to the stage where they hate going into their cot in the evening, fight sleep and scream if put in. For the past couple of weeks one of us has ended up going to bed with them.

So, a few nights ago we tried to pick up/put down thing. It was awful and we had to give in as they were beside themselves. They have colds now so haven't tried again. We don't want to do cc- we have tried leaving them a little in the past (for a very little amount of time) and tried to settle and soothe in their cots but this didn't work ever.

Considering just giving in and carrying on co-sleeping, which will mean we won't be able to spend anytime or do anything in the evenings at all.

I'm considering the chair idea, but they don't just cry they scream, begin to lose voices, sob etc. It is awful. Could it work with twins? When we attempted the pick up/down DD woke up sobbing throughout the night, even though she was in our bed, and (please don't think I'm mad) seemed genuinely distraught!

rrreow Mon 19-Mar-12 16:51:38

Oh PolkaDottedShoes I feel for you! I was getting tired of having DS in our bed all the time, too little room etc, can't imagine what it's like with twins!! I don't really have any advice to offer but just wanted to respond as it sounds like a really tough situation.

PolkaDottedShoes Mon 19-Mar-12 17:38:35

thanks rrreow, it's good to know other people have sleep/co-sleeping issues (I mean that in the nicest possible way!!) as everyone in RL seems to have a much easier time of it, or never have their children in bed in the first place. Quite a few people had warned us not to go down that route but we were desperate for sleep.

nectarina Mon 19-Mar-12 17:40:02

polkadottedshoes oh dear, I feel for you too.

I can imagine them winding each other up - one making the other cry even more, is it like that? I have no idea what it's like and how it could work I'm afraid.

I imagine what might happen is you try it, and it might not work, and then you go back to co-sleeping until you snap! and then you'll try it again with grim determination instead of intrepidation, and it'll work.

Please keep us updated...

lagartija Mon 19-Mar-12 21:15:46

It's Pipoca here with a namechange.
Polka DD at first screamed like a BANSHEE and it seemed to go on and on but I timed it and it was actually only 20 mins and then she slept for a good long stretch. I think a lot of it was frustration/anger that she wasn't being rocked/bfed to sleep as always. i kept shhing and patting until she went to sleep as I'd reached the "grim determination" stage and decided that I wasn't abandoning her, I was right there, but that something had to change and if that meant a shit few nights, then so be it. Otherwise I just couldn't see an end to the crap nights/cosleeping/all night bfing nightmare. She still tends to wake, but usually only once now and I can usually get her back to sleep quickly by shhing/patting.

Pudgy2011 Mon 19-Mar-12 21:19:54

We are biting the bullet and trying this again tonight (tried about 6 weeks ago and it worked well but a variety of things, plus teething and a short spell in hospital completely set us back!) but tonight we are going to ditch the dummy as well.
DS is 6 months next week and hasn't fed through the night since he was about 2 weeks old, he went 11pm-5am from very early on and was always a good sleeper and self-soother. Now that he's no longer swaddled and in day care, he finds it much harder to settle himself and is very impatient - unless he falls asleep quickly, he stamps his little feet and squeals (such a drama king!) I've tried to explain to him that its counter-intuitive but I just don't think he listens ;-)
Anyway, last night was the straw that broke my back - with a husband away in Jamaica on a stag weekend I decided to let DS cry it out when he went down at 7pm. Cried for 5 minutes, I went in and replaced his dummy and off he went to sleep.
Didn't hear a peep out of him until 3am when he woke yelling for his dummy, I replaced it, ssshhed him and went back to bed, but he was having none of it and screamed bloody murder until 4.30am at which point I was weeping into my pillow and a gibbering wreck. I had let him cry for 5 minutes then replaced his dummy which calmed him down but because he wasn't falling asleep immediately he was getting really angry and frustrated. The kid seriously needs to learn the art of patience! Anyway, I would replace his dummy, only for him to suck for 10 seconds then cry and let it fall out. After this went on for half an hour, I went back to bed only for him to kick off again.
I ended up caving and bringing him in with me for a quick bfeed but I know he's not hungry because he had rice cereal at 5pm followed by his evening feed at 7pm and another at 10pm!
Anyway, it was the only way we both could sleep and of course when my alarm went off at 6.30 this morning he was absolutely sparko.
He doesn't sleep well at daycare anymore so I'm hoping if we get the night's sorted then the days will follow.
Please wish us luck - with any luck he'll be starting to accept no dummy within a couple of days but I know the next few nights are going to be brutal... I remain always encouraged by this thread though!

OovoofWelcome Mon 19-Mar-12 22:11:52

pudgy will await your posts with interest, we use a dummy with our DS to settle him. In the day he goes into the cot wide awake and settles with the dummy for naps - so I find it so useful.....but at night I have fallen back to feeding to sleep, to avoid more exhaustion, and giving him the dummy when he wakes and wonders where the boob has gone. So ultimately I need to get rid.

Good luck!

Pudgy2011 Tue 20-Mar-12 02:50:02

OK, so DS had a good hour and half nap at daycare today, woke for his 3pm feed and was awake from then so we had a really good base to work on as he wasn't overtired.
He had his rice cereal at 5pm and then we did our bath routine followed by a feed at 6.15pm. He was very sleepy on the breast but woke when I finished and went into his crib awake and happy. I turned off the lights and just sat next to him in the chair. He lay with his froggy and I did actually cave and give him his dummy but he didn't cry at all, just fussed a bit. He fell asleep just after 7pm so he was out for the count after 20 minutes with no crying at all.
He moaned for his dummy which had fallen out at about 8.30 at which point I should have tried to let him re-settle without it but I didn't (the red wine got to me), however he has been asleep since then. So far so good but my main interest is how he re-settles when he wakes at 4am. He's had the majority of his sleep by then and that's when he finds it hard to get back to sleep.
Keeping everything crossed that this works. If it does then I think I will definitely ditch the dummy tomorrow evening - Id rather have a night or two of crying than having to get up a million times in the night!
Oovoof I will report back tomorrow (I'm on eastern standard time btw, hence the late postings!)

Mjtay Tue 20-Mar-12 07:53:05

So how is everyone getting on?! Xxx

watermint Tue 20-Mar-12 08:54:29

I havnt posted much on this thread but have been following closely! Our first night was awful - about 40 mins of screaming, but as the second night was only 10 mins grumbling so I was really hopeful night 3 would be better. However it was the worst ever! DS screamed hysterically, and I tried to wait it out but just couldnt, so ended up picking him up to rock him, but this didnt work as he was so upset so in the end gave up and fed him to sleep. I felt rubbish and like the hard work of the previous 2 nights had been undone BUT that night he slept v well, one wake up at 3am and then up for the day at 7am - amazing for a little 6 month old who was waking frequently just a week ago!!

Last night I was worried about more horrible crying but he grumbled for 5 mins and drifted off (after about 20 mins alert/playing not looking v sleepy in his cot!)

So just wanted to share this experience as hopefully shows that if you have a blip/bad night is doesnt automatically mean you undo any hard work.

Last night was good again with one wake up and up for the day at 6.15am. Plus I have just put him down awake for nap for 1st time ever... progress!!

My DP is willing to get up in the night but always picks him up as he says he wont settle in his cot, but I just think he hasnt got the patience, anyone else's dp/dh not quite on board?!

rrreow Tue 20-Mar-12 14:17:54

watermint Yes I've got a similar problem with DH. He'll pick DS up much more quickly or suggest we put him in our bed (when HE was the one who was most against co-sleeping initially and who was later on complaining that DS should be in his own cot...hmm). I've had a talk with him about it though (I think it's important to do this during the day, rather than in the middle of the night when you're both tired & frazzled with a crying baby) and we're both on the same page a bit more now. It's very difficult to take that decision to let your baby do some crying (even when you're right there), you're already feeling bad because of it, and then for your partner to undermine you by picking up the baby... it's annoying to say the least!

Oh and PolkaDottedShoes I remember now that a few weeks ago DS would scream bloody murder when put down in his cot. He'd get soooo upset, with big sobs and couldn't calm down. But I had a similar experience to lagartija where it was probably just venting frustration and anger at it not being what he wanted and was used to for so long (feeding to sleep/co-sleeping). Gradually he's got much better. He still cries or grizzles a bit but not the heartwrenching crying. Also I found it useful to just let him play in his cot when putting him to bed initially. I'll pat the mattress and suggest he lies down, but I don't really interfere unless he tries to climb out, at which point I just gently put him back down and say 'it's time for sleep' (I try to always use the same words).

I think the crying is the most difficult thing, even if you're right there. From the way they cry you'd think you'd abandoned them! Because you can only say with hindsight if it was 'the right thing'. And some nights it is, but then some nights it's something else (e.g. teething) and then the guilt sets in again!

titferbrains Tue 20-Mar-12 14:21:20

Just wondering how other parents of 6-7mo are doing?

Do you expect to cut out all night feeds with this technique? Including dream feed? DS is 27 wks and is waking quite a bit, I try to soothe without food before 1030, (bed at 630) although often we do have to feed earlier than this. He is then waking at 130, and again at some point and then at 530ish. All wake times seem to vary except the 130 atm.

he is in cot until his 1030 dream feed, going to try and put him back into his new bigger cot after 1030 tonight (he was in the stokke mini).

A bit scary to cut out all this milk - those of you who've had success and baby doing longer stretches - has baby increased daytime feeds?

OovoofWelcome Tue 20-Mar-12 15:33:24

Hello titfer my DS is six and a half months old, and his day feeds did increase (he was micro-feeding in the day before, very distracted and uninterested). He'd wake for his 7am feed and feed for 20 mins - rather than 3!

However we were much more consistently putting him down awake then, have recently (due to exhaustion!) slid back to feeding to sleep and the day feeds are reducing again.

Think our issue emanates from the dummy - he needs it, so isn't really learning to self-settle, so the wakings continue and the subsequent tiredness has led back to feeding to sleep....

We're going to restart nectarina's method, minus dummy, in a week and a half when we have a free weekend to begin again.

I don't mind the fact that we were gentle at this stage really - going from cosy cosleeping to full-on dummy-free sleep training would have been too big a step.

So we shall prepare ourselves for the next phase and watch everyone else's progress with interest smile

nectarina thanks for your response - helped me clarify (in my zombiefied state) what had happened, good beginnings but dummy leading back to feeding!

OovoofWelcome Tue 20-Mar-12 15:38:35

Ps We're thinking of leaving one night feed at first. Think it's best if we wake DS for a feed, but don't feed him when he wakes, to keep a clear message.

Pudgy2011 Tue 20-Mar-12 17:29:28

Quick update - Didn't hear a peep out of DS after 8.30pm until his usual wakenings at 4am. I heard him call out but it was more moans for attention than anything. Then all went quiet for 10 minutes and I started rejoycing only for him to start calling out again so I went in and found him wide awake kicking his crib mobile buttons to change the music. I sat with him for 40 minutes and he finally fell asleep but didn't cry once, just little moans. He woke again 10 minutes later and my husband resettled him again. Each time we resettled with the dummy so tonight I think we'll go cold turkey as our main problem is him waking at 4am and not being able to go back to sleep without it.
I'm going to grit my teeth through the next few nights as I'm living in (perhaps false) hope that by the weekend he will be going through the night without wakings, or at least being able to settle himself without the need for us to grope frantically around his crib in the dark for his dummy!
I think because he doesn't need the dummy except when settling to sleep, it might be easier to break now at 6 months, than further down the line. Here's hoping.

nectarina Tue 20-Mar-12 19:48:24

oovoofwelcome you're right that what you've been doing is a more gentle way in (for you as well as DS) so you can be glad of that.
As for waking him for a dream feed, I wouldn't really. If the goal is getting them to sleep through I wouldn't get into the habit of waking them up.
What I would do is use your judgement with each waking if you should feed or not. It doesn't matter if you feed DS, just make sure its not to sleep. We did this with DD and she cut out all the feeds of her own accord (she was 71/2 months i think). I've put on loads of weight though since then as she must have been feeding an extra 10 times at night. She however has been gaining steadily (I was worried that she would drop centiles if I stopped at night)
pudgy yep - get rid of the dummy. It'll be easier now than further down the line, and you'll reduce night wakings. Expect that things might get worse before they get better.

nectarina Tue 20-Mar-12 19:57:01

watermint thanks for sharing that - lots of people are saying the same, that things seem to go up the spout for no reason the 2nd or 3rd night (or other) but nothing is undone.
As for DHs and DPs - well, the ideal is if they read the technique too. What is hard though is sometimes something that makes sense in the day seems ludicrous at night. I think on the first night it helps if you can both get up together (does this sound like madness?) for each night waking.

Just to give my own update - two and a bit months since we started and DD sleeps 7pm - 7am 5 nights a week, with probably one waking the other two nights. If she's teething she'll wake two or three times for maybe two nights for each tooth. Now when she wakes up I quite like the stolen cuddle of it.
Naps however are another story... anyone else having problems with naps?

KittyBump Tue 20-Mar-12 20:56:02

Well I tried to start again last night but it was a big fail. I fed till sleepy then put her in the cot and she got her self up and started crying which turned into screaming then eventually long sobs, I sat with her singing, occasionally lying her back down and shhhing but she got worse and worse. After a terrible hour I gave in, I think it's the doubt of not knowing if she is fully better after her cold.
So she ended up in my bed again and has been waking every 45 minutes. I think she is thirsty as she is drinking more in the day, possibly due to her cold.
I have tried giving her water but this sends her crazy! Also tried calpol but she spots it out straight away sad I feel like i'll never get my nights back.

KittyBump Tue 20-Mar-12 20:57:07


Pudgy2011 Wed 21-Mar-12 01:07:19

OK, so we've deviated slightly from the plan as we took DS's dummy away tonight. Cue lots of screaming, histrionics, sobbing and general beating of chest. After 20 minutes of my husband rubbing his back and ssshhing him to no avail, I finally caved and picked him up but didn't give him his dummy. He finally fell asleep after 45 minutes (still voicing his displeasure by the way!)

I'm happy to pick him up to soothe him and calm him down instead of leaving him in the crib, especially as he has no dummy and this is a big step for him. I will continue through the night to help resettle him without the dummy, even if he does wake at 4am.
Once he can sleep without itI think the rest of it should fall into place and if it doesn't come naturally, then I will follow Nectarina's methods.

When it comes to naps, I'll just have to ask his daycare to just help him fall asleep without the dummy tomorrow. As it is, they put him in a bouncy chair to help him settle so probably not much different!

<glugs massive glass of wine in the corner to calm shredded nerves>

nectarina Wed 21-Mar-12 14:32:44

Kittybump its not going to work if you put her to bed sleepy I'm afraid. Move the feed earlier in the routine, read or sing and cuddle afterwards and put baby to bed alert.
Pudgy sounds like the worst is over now, well done you. Wine was my best friend for a while.....

rrreow Wed 21-Mar-12 15:14:15

What's this thing with 4-4.30am?? It seems to be a time that keeps being mentioned, and it's exactly when DS also wakes up inconsolable and usually takes at least 30 minutes of talking/patting to go back to sleep. Independent of what time he goes to sleep or whether he's slept until then or woken up before then..

Something that seems to work for our DS at that point in time is actually to acknowledge his feelings. I've been reading the Happiest Toddler book, which overall I find a bit average and repetitive, but the technique it describes of reflecting back your DCs feelings and using some of the intensity seems really helpful.

You basically try to give voice to the feeling DC is experiencing, you put it into very basic terms (so rather than saying "I hear you are very sad" you say "sad sad sad!") as it argues that very upset kids don't process language very well, and use some of the same intensity (although obviously not the same volume..) to say it back. I was initially a bit wary of raising my voice above a whisper in the middle of the night, but after trying it a few times it actually WORKS and made DS calm down much quicker (I'd say stuff like "No no no sleep! DS doesn't want sleep!" or "DS scared!" or whatever). I don't know how much of the language he actually understands (he's 10 months) but the reflecting back the intensity seems to make him feel more understood maybe (?). Anyway, I know we're all desperately trying to find what works, so I thought I'd share this if people wanted to give it a try.

Nessler Wed 21-Mar-12 19:45:43

arrrgh! Having progressed initially we are now back to large scale protests from DS, lots of shouting- tonight (6th night) so far has been 45 mins and counting, he is closing his eyes, settling and then opening them and having another shout. Same thing happened last night when he woke at 9.30pm and we ended up rocking to sleep after an hour of no success in the cot!

Anyone else go backwards after feeling like it was working? I am still having to stand close to the cot and do the odd stroking/singing. Feel knackered and DS (6.5 months) is taking so long to settle that he's getting less sleep and overtired as result.

Feel like a useless mum- how do I fix this?

OovoofWelcome Wed 21-Mar-12 21:57:45

Wow, rreow, that's so interesting. It feels counterintuitive because the natural thing is to be as calm and quiet as possible, so it's fascinating to read that your DS was calmed by you reflecting and acknowledging his mood.

Pudgy2011 Thu 22-Mar-12 02:35:23

Well last night was utterly brutal. After screaming and crying for 45 minutes at 7pm, DS fell asleep but woke again at his 10pm feed. Bless him, he was wide awake when he went back in the crib, rolled around cooing for a bit and then finally fell asleep with no dummy and no protest at 11.45pm.
Anyway, he woke at 3am and apparently forgot that he'd gone to sleep without a dummy and screamed his head off... for 2 hours. He was so tired, he almost fell asleep but kept himself awake moaning. Finally, he fell back to sleep just after 5am but it was really hard work.
His carers at nursery carried on with the training today and helped him fall asleep without the dummy in the swing and bouncy chair and apparently he got better at falling asleep as the day went on. When I collected him, they said to be strong and continue with it, the first day is out the way and it will get easier - I'm very grateful for their vote of confidence I'll admit!

He finished his last feed just after 7pm and even though he fussed for a bit, he didn't properly scream, just more moans and he finally fell asleep just after 8pm and has been down since then. I heard him moan at about 8.45pm but he settled again.
Once again I'm dreading the 3-4am wake up, but with any luck it won't take as long for him to fall back to sleep. I'm hoping that because he didn't fall asleep until after 8pm, he'll sleep longer. I know it doesn't work that way but I can live in hope!

Mjtay Thu 22-Mar-12 07:15:31

I've just had a good old catch up on u all!!I'm afraid I
Can't remember all the points risen! I will say it is sooooo worth persevering! The last 3 nights i haven't been given the chance to leave the room and see what happens! It's like me doing up her sleeping bag is getting in the way of her trying to sleep! Last 2 nights asleep in seconds! Night before 3 mins!! Last night we did bath,massage, book and asleep all in half an hour!

Yes naps are trickier! This week I have been putting DD in her cot if were at home! She doesn't generally cry, just playsnsnd moans till she falls asleep. But still only for 30-45 mins! Day before last I put her in her cot for her late afternoon nap, and just wouldn't go to sleep. She was actually crying, and I had to start dinner. So I tried her swing, she cried again! So I was trying to chop potatoes while DD attached to my hip! She then went in her jumparoo while we ate! Happy as u like! Then bath, massage, story! She had been awake since 3 and put down at 7.30 (she normally needs a sleep after 2 hours!) I was dreading it knowing how she was in her cot in the avo AND being overtired!! But she was asleep in seconds! Like she was relieved! "ah thank god mummy, uve finally put me in my cot!!! I can go to sleep atlast!"

Hubby and I even went out for a meal with friends sat nite, as DD is rarely waking in the eve anymore. PIL saw her stir on her monitor, but always self settled!!! AMAZING!!!!

With regards to the 4 wake up! My DD generally sleeps thro now! But if she does wake and cry, then I stroke her next to her cot. At the weekend she woke one night at 2 and the next at 4.30 and wouldn't stop crying... She was actually hungry! In fact first night she took 8oz bottle and 1 breast too!! Growth spurt perhaps!? Back to sleeping thro now. So is this possibly the problem with some of u?!

I'm gonna stop gassing now!! Just keep going.... It's the very best thing!!! And I'm soooo proud of my little girl. Thank u so so sooooo mh h nectarina!! Xx

ct148 Thu 22-Mar-12 16:08:39

I'd been doing this for a couple of weeks and was absolutely amazed at the difference in my DS at night time! He went from co sleeping and waking pretty much every hour to waking only once or twice! Hardly crying at all when we put him in his cot. I was really hopeful.
But....at the weekend we went to stay with the in laws for a couple of nights. And since we got back home we have gone back to square one sad
he cries when we put him down and wakes up loads. I wonder if we should just start from the beginning again? very depressing because i bet this means that every time we have to go and see them i have to listen to him getting upset when we get back home sad it was horrible enough the first time...

Pudgy2011 Fri 23-Mar-12 02:15:55

So after sitting with DS from 12.45am until 4.10am this morning, when I eventually succumbed and fed him, followed by spectacularly oversleeping and being late for work, I have finally caved.

I've had it, I can't face another night of uncontrollable and prolonged screaming whilst he tries to settle without his dummy. I put him down tonight at 7pm after his feed and it's now 9.15pm and he's still awake. His crib is now filled with 17 dummies so I'm banking on him being able to find at least one!
Once he starts to find them himself he can start to soothe himself when he wakes.
I know I managed 2 full days and nights without the dummy and I've really taken a step back but the thought of another night trying to soothe him unsuccessfully brought tears to my eyes.
Good luck everyone!

Blippy Fri 23-Mar-12 03:07:44

Just wondering has anyone tried this with a just 5 month old? Having real problems at night. Have been doing pick up put down and seem to be feeding lots in the night. She wakes like every 45 minutes to an hour and I am just shattered! I know little one will need to feed in the night but not as much as she is!!!!

majorsforminors Fri 23-Mar-12 07:03:59

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Fevrier Fri 23-Mar-12 10:09:39

Ct148 - how old is your baby? This is what is hard about all sleep training I found, they regress and you have to do it again but generally it's quicker subsequent times... And easier as they get older. All of it gets easier the older, I found.

I have been settling my dd (7.5) months in her cot with pick ups and pats and rocking the cot and that stopped her waking hourly and now she is up twice (more when teething). Definitely what made the difference was where she fell asleep but it was okay to help her a bit.....

lilysma Fri 23-Mar-12 14:26:00

Hi everyone, sorry if I've missed it, but has anyone tried the equivalent of this and continued to have their DC sleep in their bed or in their room. I would really like to continue co-sleeping in some form but need to reduce DS's wakings (every 90 mins or so). He's 8 months and I'm beginning to get tired (grin).

lagartija Fri 23-Mar-12 15:48:09

what did majorsforminors say? <<nosey>>.

nectarina Fri 23-Mar-12 17:25:06

lilysma I don't see why it shouldn't work actually, since all this is is a way of teaching baby to go to sleep by themselves. You might not get as dramatic results because you're more likely to disturb their sleep; but i should think it would work. You could lie next to them as they go to sleep but silently and without stroking (unless they're upset of course). Try it and let us know how it works.
I would also like to know what majors said!

ecuse Fri 23-Mar-12 18:12:04

Hi everyone. I found this thread last week and had just started implementing (my version of) it when my DD got a vomiting bug. Back on it tonight hopefully. Haven't read the whole thread but what's the problem with doing this but leaving them a dummy? My DD is quite good at popping her dummy back in without really waking up - it's one of the few ways she does self settle so I'm not keen to take it away from her without good reason! She always sleeps on her left side so I clip it to the right hand shoulder of her sleeping bag. She knows it's always there so can run her hand from her shoulder along the ribbon until she finds it and pop it back in her mouth without properly waking up. Sometimes! Maybe that could work for you, pudgy?

The major thing that I want to achieve is getting her to self settle at night and wean her off her night feed (anywhere between 2am and 5am). I wouldn't really mind that but sometimes she's wide awake and ready tto play after it. She's perfectly cheerful as long as I don't put her back down, but she'll sit on my knee blowing bubbles and kicking around for 2hours sometime. I'm going back yo work in 3weeks and really can't cope with that on top of full time job.

Oh, she's almost 11 months old and she's still in a cot at the foot of the bed as we're still in a one bed flat until we move in two months or so.

Anyway she almost always falls asleep during her last bottle feed and goes down easily so it's really just the night waking I want to deal with. First night took an hour and a half at 3am. Second night took 20 minutes at 5am. Wish me luck for tonight!!

OovoofWelcome Fri 23-Mar-12 20:18:56

Majorsforminors just posted an advert for their website. Nothing juicy!

lilysma Fri 23-Mar-12 20:49:22

Thanks Nectarina. I'm going to wait until after Easter when I will be going away so don't want to have to start all over again afterwards. DS is starting to go to sleep by himself some nights - i.e. he feeds and then when he's had enough he either plays for a bit and goes to sleep or just rolls over and goes to sleep. He sometimes does that in the night too, but it doesn't seem to impact on how often he wakes up. My main concern is how to manage to get him back to sleep on his own on each waking because there are so many that I suspect I won't get any sleep at all if I have to be fully awake for each one. At the moment I just feed him half asleep for most of them. I can keep it up for a night or two but I'm not sure how long it will take before they start reducing a bit. Has anyone been there and can offer any reassurance?! I'll let you all know how I get on...

nectarina Sat 24-Mar-12 16:02:56

lilysma - hmmm, feel free to ignore me, but I can't help feeling that if your DS can get himself to sleep easily, the reason he's waking frequently in the night is 1. the availability of your boobs and 2. you inadvertently waking him in the night. I've got a feeling it might not work unless he is in his own bed. If you'd like to continue co-sleeping I'd just carry on doing as you are, and enjoy it while it lasts....smile

Ginfox Tue 27-Mar-12 17:01:01

Just wanted to bump this thread. We started last night and it was tough, but I hadn't appreciated that dd needs to be properly awake when she goes into the cot. I was putting her in when she was dozy, and she was waking up and getting upset. Trying again tonight!

Also wanted to thank Nectarina for taking the time to write the OP, and for helping everyone so much.

fannybaws Tue 27-Mar-12 21:54:09

Hi all started this tonight with my bf cosleeping 14 month old.
Something had to give as I am knackered and he is in danger if falling out of my bed.
Well about 20 mins of full on screaming with me singing and patting then he fell asleep.
I will feed him if he wakes in the middle of the night and will then put him back in and shush/pat , wish me luck, wibble.

er1507 Tue 27-Mar-12 22:51:04

After reading this when it was first posted I knew that this method was right up my street but I hadn't reached breaking point just yet and was too tired to start it! Anyway one night while I was giving dd a cuddle for bed I just thought "hmmm I wonder what she'll do if I put her down?" so I did and she went to sleep! A little patting was involved but u do not understand how triumphant I felt! I've been putting her down when she's drowsy and as soon as she goes down she starts flapping to play and is awake completely loving life until I put her on her tummy then she cwtchs in and goes to sleep, not sleeping through but her sleep has improved alot since! I have been patting though and as soo as she's over the cold she has I feel ready to to do this head on! Thanks for posting!!

Ginfox Wed 28-Mar-12 09:03:55

Morning all! Reporting on last night: after 2 hours of alternating babbling/playing, and screaming the house down, DH came in to give me a break and she fell asleep in his arms. So not ideal but she then slept from 10ish til 2am, had a feed, then slept til 5. And I know she woke inbetween times, but after a quick grizzle she settled herself again. Prior to this she would sleep til 11ish, then be up every 1-2hrs wanting a suckle, so this is huge progress!

I'm cautiously optimistic, and hoping it wasn't a coincidence!

lagartija Wed 28-Mar-12 10:03:01

Still working well for us, altho DD woke at 11pm, 1 am and 6am lst night...not usual but think there's a top tooth cutting through. Currently trying the non patting route for a nap. I'm sitting by her cot on the laptop doing shhhh but no pattig to see f she'll manage to sleep without actual backslapping. She's just sort of rolling about whinging at the mo.

lagartija Wed 28-Mar-12 11:28:08

she was ok for a bit then got upset and rapidly totally hysterical. ended up bfing to calm her (she sobbed pathetically while bfing) and then pat pat pat to sleep. Feel like the cruellest, worst mother in the world. She's been down 45 min now. bleurgh, will have to stick to shh pat for the time being I think.

nectarina Wed 28-Mar-12 13:54:09

lagartija oh dear, don't feel bad. Further up the thread someone posted a very similar reaction, they tried again the next night and it went loads easier. Can I suggest you try one more time? Its quite usual for the baby to be pissed off at the change, but the baby has already understood something, even if you ended up bfing.
ginfox sounds like progress even if it didn't go to plan. stick with it!
well done er1507 and fannybaws too

fannybaws Wed 28-Mar-12 19:16:44

Nectarina you are my hero!
I have just watched my lo fall asleep in his cot!
Last night went well woke at 4 15 I did feed him then put him back to bed awake, he cried on and off for 30 mins or so with me patting his tum and chanting, go to sleep in a low voice.
Tonight he has taken 45 mins but no screaming at all just a bit of tired crying which stopped as soon as I sang or patted I can't believe it.
Until yesterday he has always resisted being alone in bed, he used to be fast asleep on me then ping awake as soon as I tried to put him down.
This technique where you stay with them constantly really works fr him and me.
We shall see what tonight brings but I know he can do it, and without screaming and panic, thank you so much for posting. smile

OptomisticBiscuit Sat 07-Apr-12 21:13:49

Thank you so much for this post Nectarina, I am on the third night of trying this and I can't believe the difference in my daughters sleep. She is 6 months old and I have rocked her to sleep (and often fed her to sleep) since she was born. She has been waking for longer and longer in the night, often staying awake for an hour or more after a feed, and waking several times, only to get up for the day at 6.00. Also she had started to push me away as I rocked her to sleep.

The first night we tried this she cried solidly for 30 mins, bellowed for 30 seconds and then stopped, turned on her side and went to sleep. She woke once for a feed at 04.00 and went straight back to sleep until 7am (bliss!). The second night she cried for 20 minutes and only woke for one feed at midnight, waking at 06.40, and tonight she took 30 mins to get to sleep but did not really cry much and was mostly crawling around in her cot.

Fingers crossed this really seems to be working, we are dong it for all naps too.

Pinbeak Sun 08-Apr-12 19:47:25

I was wondering how everyone was getting on. I started this about a month ago and have had a few weeks of teething and illness (and possibly 9 month sleep regression).
Have just resorted to bf to sleep but DD seems fine in herself last few days so thought I'd crack on as her sleep is really bad (up 5 times a night, sometimes for an hour) So have had 20mins of crying and now she's out. Not looking forward to the rest of the night!
Was wondering how other people were doing after periods of illness and teething and whether it took as long to reduce night wakings as the first time you did the technique. I'm also wondering if people are finding they have to repeat the technique after every illness and teething episode? DD only has 2 teeth so could be doing this many times if so!

Pinbeak Tue 10-Apr-12 20:36:36

Hopefully bumping! smile

loopy11 Sun 15-Apr-12 15:13:04

Hi all. I started this a few weeks ago. I used to feed/rock to sleep but now my 12 mth old is settling himself to sleep in his cot with no intervention from me. Its made a massive difference to the number of night-time wake-ups. He used to wake every 2-3 hours but now pretty much always sleeps through (7:30-6:30) - sometimes waking once. Never though it was possible!
Anyway - the issue I'm having at the moment is that I have followed the technique until I am at the door - as far away from the cot as I can be without leaving the room and he is fine. The problem is that as soon as I actually leave the room he goes mental! I have tried pottering outside so he knows I'm there and that seems to make him worse. I've even tried standing half in-half out but that doesn't fool him either. I did this technique as I really didn't want to do contolled crying but is that my only option if I want him to go to sleep on his own? The other option I guess is just to sit there but it seems such a waste of time for me to sit in a dark room for 40 mins every night not actually doing anything! Anyone else had a similar experience? Any ideas?

nectarina Sun 15-Apr-12 18:01:49

how nice to hear some more optimistic stories - ahhhh...
loopy11 three months on, and we haven't been able to leave before dd's asleep! we have the same issue that she goes crazy if we leave for more than 2 minutes. Since we're so happy about her sleeping through we feel we can be a bit more patient about it for the moment. If anyone has any advice on this matter I'd be very grateful too.
pinbeak from my point of view its not something we have to repeat as I don't revert to feeding to sleep when DD's ill. She does come to bed with us sometimes, but she doesn't wake like before. I think the general advice is even when ill or teething to be as indulgent as you need to be without diverting from the 'babies getting themselves to sleep' formula. I think for you, it won't be as hard as the first time you did it, as its something she knows and has mastered (even though she put it aside for a bit) so she'll soon get back into the rythym.

er1507 Sun 15-Apr-12 19:52:03

Ok so I posted a few weeks ago saying that I'm going to try this technique head on and tonight was the first night....up until about a month ago I would rock and jiggle dd to sleep then put her down...then I would rock and jiggle until sleepy and put her down and pat her the rest of the way to sleep...I've now come to the point where dd needs to learn how to relax herself and tonight hasn't taken as long as I thought! around 35min! At least 20 of those were spent trying to get dd to lay down, she just wanted to sit up or play. the rest were crying, mostly grizzly shouting then full on tearful hysterics at which point I felt bad so picked her up comforted her then she done a mix of both crying and an angry one, she fell asleep with me patting her gently. Really wasnt half as bad as I thought cos I did expect the years to be streaming for at least half hour! Let's see how the rest of the night and tomorrow goes!

lagartija Sun 15-Apr-12 21:32:34

Been doing this for about 2 months now. Started with shhhing ad patting to sleep and then we moved to me sitting near the cot and just shhhing. Have now got to the stage that i just put her in and sit on the other side of the room but don't shh or look at her or interact and gurgles a bit and then falls asleep in 5 mins or so. all great but had to drop the cot mattress down today cos she can pull up now and had a bit of a regression. So, not patting but have had to shhh a bit from the other side of the room and she's really let rip for as much as 20 mins today before falling asleep. I think it's cos of dropping the mattress, but she'll settle. Still haven't managed the putting her down and leaving the room, but i don't care as we'd got (until temporary blip of today) so only having to sit for 5 mins and then she slept all night.
Even the few times she's woken in the night, I've waited 5 mins and she's dropped off again.
I really do think this thread is amazing, I'm so glad I read it, I feel like I've got dd to self settle, without any awful CIO and it has saved my sanity ultimately. There were so many things i couldn't do before cos i was so tired.

usingapseudonym Mon 16-Apr-12 16:26:12

I've been desperately scanning threads looking for something like this. I've got a couple of problems though and wondering if anyone had a similar experience.

My baby will have to share a room with my daughter (3) so I have been trying to put her down in the cot in her room which was working, but then when she cries at 11pm bringing her in with me (but she is wanting to feed every hour) and cosleeping.

Is there any way this would work in a co-sleeping cot? I can't really have her crying in my daughters room as she wlil wake my daughter sad

Its a bit chicken and egg - I want my baby in my daughters room and I think that being away from me will help her sleep better BUT in order to get her into my daughters room I could do with her being able to sleep so as not to disturb her!

nectarina Mon 16-Apr-12 21:33:32

usingapseudonym hi yes I'm sure this'll work if baby sleeps in the same room as you, however I think it would be better if they are in their own cot at on the other side of the room (I'm not sure what you mean by co-sleeping cot). All the principles are the same.
When you've got it under control you'll then be able to move your little DD into the same room with the bigger one. I agree that it would be v. disruptive to start this in the same room as another child.
Maybe try to work on not jumping out of bed in the night as soon as dd wakes but to try to take your time a bit in order that she gets the chance to get back to sleep by herself. good luck
lagartija i'm very happy for you, its seems to be working v. well (still takes us up to an hour each night....)

lagartija Mon 16-Apr-12 21:54:13

Spoke too soon, she's got an awful cold and I think combined with dropping the cot mattress and her new found skill of sitting up and pulling up in the cot, tonight she screamed the house down for an hour and ten minutes. I left the room in the end as it seemed to be making her worse and she cried for another 10 mins and then fell asleep. will see what tonight brings.

lilysma Wed 18-Apr-12 20:31:29

Largatija I was heartened to read your initial post, as I currently co-sleep with DS (9 months) and don't think either of us are quite ready for him to be in another room but would dearly love to have him sleep for longer and even (whisper it) in the cot next to me. Can I just ask, before your recent set back, did you see a reduction in wakings without having to actually leave your DD to go to sleep on her own? What I want to avoid is getting 'stuck' at getting DS to sleep without feeding but having him still wake a lot in the night without being able to quickly feed him back to sleep IYSWIM. I am tired but could be worse if I have to sit up with him every time he wakes for weeks and weeks... Sorry about your regression though and hope it was a blip and tonight is better!

lagartija Wed 18-Apr-12 21:40:14

I think you've misunderstood me, lilysma I've never really coslept with DD. I always put her don in her own room in the cot, but if when she woke i used to go in and cosleep on the double bed in there.
I used to be Pipoca o this thread if you search further back. When she was 9 mo I got bronchitis v badly and couldn't cope with getting up mulitple times and having her awake for maybe 2 hrs at a time (feeding to sleep seemed to have stopped working, it was "I can only sleep with a nipple in my mouth" territory) so I did shh pat and she was asleep in 20mins and only woke once that night.
After about a month I managed just to shh from the other side of the room and had got down to just putting her in the cot and sitting on the other side of the room in silence and she'd just gurgle and then roll over and go to sleep in 5 mins. And then sleep thru or at most moan a bit.
Since Monda she's had a cold and I had to drop the cot mattress down and we're back to it taking maybe 30mins of shhh (altho I'm trying not to regress as far as patting too)

nectarina Wed 18-Apr-12 22:25:20

lilysma I know what you mean
I was worried about not feeding in the middle of the night because it was such an easy way to get dd back to sleep. By the time we did this things had got so bad it was as if we didn't have a choice, but I have to say that her sleep was so significantly improved from the word go that it wasn't as bad as i'd thought. can you get OH to help? you won't get stuck - you can always go back to doing what you're doing now, but i'm sure you won't need to. let us know how you get on.
lagartija i'm sorry for your setback, sounds like its going better though now.

lilysma Thu 19-Apr-12 10:29:44

Thanks both. I will gird my loins to try it! ;-)

Lagartija hope things get back to normal soon.

DeathMetalMum Thu 19-Apr-12 21:44:16

I half-heartedly tried this today with dd who is 14 months (she was biting me so i put her in the cot for a bit) she seemed to think it was play time when i put her in the cot was walking around the outside jumping etc also playing with her two teddies I kept patting the matress and saying lye down time for sleep etc but she didnt really calm down at all is this normal for the first night? (I know she wasnt quite tired as usual as she had a slightly later nap) Well we stuck ati it for 20 minutes and she didnt really begin to settle at all I had to take her out as she filled her nappy. I then bf her to sleep as usual. Im looking to start properly on sunday wich was the original plan just wondering if anyone else lo thought it was playtime in the cot?

cmm Thu 19-Apr-12 23:46:01

Hi necterina and all, I tried this technique almost 60 nights ago with fantastic success so quickly. My nine month old was before this feeding hourly and so when I saw this routine I thought I'd try it. He responded so well sleeping through that I didn't need to do the same training during the night and because bf I didn't want to go cold turkey! All was great, but about a month ago he started waking more and it's got worse and worse. He's going off great, almost at moved completely away from him now (taken longer as had bugs and break away) but hr is waking screaming so loud and arching bsck. I am feeding back to sleep again now!
What do you think is happening? He put himself into the sleeping through routine before even when I fed to sleep, eg the routine worked getting himself to sleep and then sleeping longer. Now he goes off awake and well but then nights are awful.
Thanks for your help xxx

cmm Thu 19-Apr-12 23:48:18

Meant to say he screams so hard when he wakes and arches bsck that I can very rarely get him to settle without a feed. He then bf loads but I know that ultimately he doesn't need the milk!!!! Xx

nectarina Fri 20-Apr-12 20:28:52

deathmetalmum oh yes quite normal, i'd just tidy up in her room for five minutes while she plays, then ask her to lie down. Don't enter into any games - don't succumb to the charm!
It could take several hours the first night, so don't get dispirited aboutdirty nappies etc just carry on after as yOu were.
cmm oh dear, don't know what thats about. Don't forget you can bf in the night as much as you want, just do it in their room, and put them to sleep awake. You might just have to go with the flow for the mo - i should think the screaming is temporary.

cmm Sun 22-Apr-12 20:54:13

Thanks nectarina, doing what you said now and putting him down awake even if he screams in middle of night and just comforting him. He is making progress going off, tonight going off again without any hand contact, never thought possible! He seems to wake an hour after going off but trying not to feed again till at least after midnight!! X

FushiasFairy Sun 22-Apr-12 22:22:27

Hi all,
I've just stumbled accross this thread in desperation really -
I'm going to give it a go, but what i'm wondering is if I can begin it any time of the night or should I just stick with starting it tomorrow so as not to confuse my DD?
She is 13months and currently taking hours to go to bed every night WITH milk, and waking up in the night, too.

cmm Sun 22-Apr-12 23:16:25

Fushiasfairies - I stumbled across this thread from nectarina too and it transformed my little boys sleep! He too was soooo frequent it was horrid (although I adore him so much!)

See what nectarina says but I would personally wait as I think from my understanding it is teaching them to self settle eventually so they can go off without support, eg bf or rocking etc. then when they stir at night they can self settle rather than rely on a prop or prompt!!!

My little Fella self settles really well At bedtime although working on during night. He responded amazing within two weeks was sleeping through whereas before was hourly waking even more sometimes. He's regressed a little now but partly my fault as feeding to sleep in the night so going to do the same as I do at bedtime, eg feed and then put down awake. Going I sleep is loads better.. It can take a long time as you take it slow but im now not even holding his hand when first put him to bed. I basically bf him then lie him down and sit at side now (see my and others posts for what we've done)
Good luck!!! Definitely worth trying and sure nectarina will get back with some tips too!

FushiasFairy Mon 23-Apr-12 11:37:48

Well, I shall be starting it tonight, so we'll see what happens!

The thing is, DD can sleep through/self settle, as she's gone through phases of doing it - and at the moment when she wakes up during the night i'll lie down next to her and feed her, then we'll both fall asleep. (however I do not want to sleep in her bed every night!)
Bedtime is a completely different story at the moment, her normal bedtime is 7pm, she has milk and falls asleep in my arms. As soon as I put her down she just rolls over and sits up and then she's wide awake until 9 and it's driving me crazy!
And I just can't let her cry it out as many friends have suggested, because neither of us deal with it well!

I'll report back anyway and let you know how it goes grin

camdancer Mon 23-Apr-12 14:01:12

So I tried this with DD2 (10mo) on Saturday night. It took 45 mins but she went to sleep. She then had the best night's sleep she has ever had (only 2 feeds/wake ups).

I wanted to carry on but last night she just fell asleep on my boob. She doesn't feed properly downstairs because there is too much going on - DH, DS and DD1 playing. I tried feeding her with the light on in her bedroom but she also wouldn't feed. So how can I get her to have a proper feed but not fall asleep? I know she is getting milk (can hear swallowing) even when her eyes are shut. Aaagghhh! Any ideas?

Humania Mon 23-Apr-12 14:53:07

camdancer - we had the same problem so i started giving dd2 her last feed a little earlier, before her bath. So even if she is almost asleep after the feed a bath wakes her up again before bedtime so she can properly self-settle. This worked for us....


camdancer Mon 23-Apr-12 16:41:26

Will try that tonight. Thanks.

Bungalowsrule Tue 24-Apr-12 09:00:40

I am going to try this tonight, wish me luck!!

DD is an amazing sleeper and once she is asleep will sleep through but its just getting her to sleep. The day she turned 9 months she lost the ability to self settle and has been relying on me to lie with her on the bed until she is fast asleep and then transfer her which sometimes takes 2 hours with all the failed attempts and i want my evenings back.

Everyone i speak to tells me to leave her to cry but i just cant do it.

Bungalowsrule Tue 24-Apr-12 09:06:11

Just a quick question nectarina, if she stands do i keep laying her down whilst saying something like 'its bedtime now E***, lie down now' or do i leave her to it? (sorry if you have covered this already)

Bungalowsrule Tue 24-Apr-12 20:01:29

Just wanted to say thank you!!!

It only took an hour and shes fast asleep, not even one cry. She was a bit confused but i sat right next to the cot and she gave me some lovely cuddles through the bars, i shut my eyes and she lay down and shut hers!!!

I would never have believed that this would work but i thought it was worth a try and it sooooo was!!

Thanks again

nectarina Wed 25-Apr-12 14:59:37

camdancer like humania says, find a time and a way to feed dd so that she concentrates but doesn't fall asleep. Before bath is good.
bungalows you probably found your own way by the sounds of it - but in answer to your question, we do a mixture (she STILL doesn't want to go to bed). sometimes ignore, sometimes lie her down, sometimes ask her to lie down. sleep any better in the night?

cmm Wed 25-Apr-12 19:53:24

Hope you're all having good evenings with the routines!! My baby is going off really well but he's fighting going off awake after bf in middle of night!!!! X

Bartiimaeus Thu 26-Apr-12 09:18:35

Thank you for this advice!

Tried this for the first time last night with DS (7 months).

Fed him then put him in his cot when awake. He grumbled and whinged and yawned and rubbed his eyes for 30mins. I patted him and spoke soothingly to him. Then he started to really cry - I tried to calm him without picking him up but it didn't work and I couldn't leave him to cry so I picked him up to calm him. He was wide awake looking around, so I fed him again until he was sleepy then put him back in his cot and sat with him. He whinged a little bit but within 5 minutes was fast asleep! Whole thing took 50 minutes. He did need to see me though - kept his eyes fixed on me the whole time.

He woke up at midnight, I waited but he was crying so I went in. I fed him and he fell asleep on me (oops). BUT I put him in his cot and he didn't stir again until 5am. He whinged but I waited and waited (in my room) and he fell asleep by himself! Same thing at 6am!

A brilliant night for us! Will try it again tonight. Am planning on feeding him once in the night if needed for a few days and will gradually withdraw that. Don't want to do it all in one go (as I suspect he needs the feed cos he properly eats, doesn't just suck for comfort).

Bungalowsrule Thu 26-Apr-12 09:30:17

nectarina we have never had an issue with night time sleep and are very lucky to have a baby who will sleep 13 hours straight (almost) every night, its just the getting her to sleep thats been a problem. Shes sooooo active and seems to have a problem relaxing enough to go to sleep.
Last night however she woke at 10.30 for a moan and the night before at midnight, much to our horror!

The 2 nights we have tried this its taken an hour to get her to sleep which is amazing. All in all its going well so thank you for the thread grin

Bartiimaeus Thu 26-Apr-12 09:54:49

Update from my dad who is looking after DS: took 30mins to go down for a nap. My dad had to pick him up twice when crying got too bad but DS did fall asleep by himself in his cot. Fingers crossed this keeps working!

Nessler Thu 26-Apr-12 13:18:00

Hi there, I had started this method to some initial success but now it has gone downhill.
DS, nearly 8 months, is trying to crawl and keeps going onto his tummy when I put him down in the cot. He tries to move around, drags himself around the cot, gets stuck and frustrated. I then flip him over, he does it again 3-4 times and eventually gets a bit whiny and then falls asleep after a bit of patting/shhing. (takes around 20-30 minutes). Should I be leaving him to settle in what ever position he finds himself in?

It's also a problem for night wakings as he usually sleeps on his side, and I think he rolls over to his belly and then wakes up, pushes up into crawl position and then starts shouting. If we flip him onto his back he gets even louder! We then either pick him up and try to calm him, or I feed him. He doesn't really need the night feeds though.

We haven't really had more than 3 hours sleep at a time and I am on my knees... sad

Bungalowsrule Thu 26-Apr-12 13:52:47

Nessler we had the same with DD when she was 7 months and trying to crawl, to be honest we did anything it took to get her to sleep and left her in any position that she wanted to be in. i never put a blanket in her cot and took all the toys out for safety so it was just her in her sleeping bag, but then we never had the night wakings.....someone will be along soon with more help

nectarina Thu 26-Apr-12 18:47:09

Nessler I would definitely leave baby to sleep in whatever position they are most comfortable with. Since you're teaching them how to do it themselves, they are now the ones that decide! (I'm not suggesting that people put a baby on their tummies by the way, just you let them do it themselves). Hope things improve quickly
bartilimaeus very good news, nice that your dad can keep it consistent with you too.
bungalowsrule the night waking will just be a blip whilst dd is getting used to the new way. she'll go back to sleeping through. Glad the evenings are easier.

Nessler Thu 26-Apr-12 19:10:34

Thanks Bungalows and Nectarina.

To clarify I only flip him onto his back again if he gets himself stuck trying to roll himself over.
The main issue is during wakings in the night- if he has woken up and is shouting while on his hands and knees, should we be lying him back down, or leaving him to do what he wants while we sit next to him?

I am so desperate to get this right as I cannot handle much more of the broken nights!

Bartiimaeus Fri 27-Apr-12 08:52:20

Argh last night was not so good sad

DS fell asleep on me before I had chance to put him in his cot. Literally. I put him in his sleeping bag after his bath, picked him up to carry him into his room and he fell asleep on me! First time ever (DH was most puzzled when I came out of the bedroom saying he was already asleep!)

But he gave me the chance to try the new technique at 11pm. It was awful. Cried and cried. Picked him up to calm him, put him down. He cried and cried (sad/something wrong crying, not annoyed/tired crying). It took so long I even checked his nappy/checked he wasn't teething etc. because he seemed so unhappy.

He kept falling asleep on me (but not asking to be fed which is also very unusual) but as soon as I put him down he'd start wailing again. Eventually I put him down on his tummy (dunno why, just did) and he was out like a light! First time I've put him to sleep on his tummy, but I left him (he can roll over easily) and he slept from 12 til 5.30! Woke and self-settled and again at 6.15am (then DH got up for work which woke us all up <yawn>)

So tonight I might try the tummy again. We'll see.

Hope everyone else is getting better nights sleep.

FushiasFairy Fri 27-Apr-12 10:53:22

Hello again,

Just thought i'd report back on how it went for me,
I tried it for the first time last night as tuesday we had to go and stay at my mums and wednesday I was too tired (i'm pregnant so get tired very easily) to even think about doing it!
DD was full of milk but still awake so I thought it was the perfect opportunity to give it a go.
I did everything you're supposed to do, but by 45 minutes she was crying too much to even let me settle her, although she was absolutely shattered and kept lying down and closing her eyes, and every time I thought "this is it!" but no, she just fought it and in the end I had to give her some milk as she was so upset.
I didn't know what else to do - but the really confusing part was the fact she slept through, 9:30 - 6:30, which amazed me as she's not slept through in weeks?!
Her sleep is just all over the place at the moment, and i've not got long until I need her to sleep well because of the new baby on the way. Aaahhhh.

Any advice on what to do when she just won't settle?

Bungalowsrule Fri 27-Apr-12 12:30:57

Awful night for me aswell, bedtime was great and easy but then DD was up 4 times and didnt sleep between 1.20am and 6am which has never ever happened before, even when she was tiny the most she ever woke was 3 times.

I ended up asleep on her bedroom floor after unsuccesfully trying to get her to settle in my bed. She was trying to scratch her face off so maybe its her big teeth coming through?? Shes had her 8 front teeth since 7 months and nothing since.

She is a wingy mess today sad and wont nap.

Hmmmm......ill keep trying.

nectarina Fri 27-Apr-12 13:30:16

fuschiasfairy you've described exactly what has happened for others on the first night. you just need to carry on like this. The first night can be very upsetting for the babies, but you've got the worst over with. All being well you'll find tonight at least marginally easier and you probably won't have to give in and feed. You did the right thing by the way - even though the goal is to not feed to sleep, you really have to be the one to judge when its too much. The goal is to be consistent without being a heartless robot.
bungalowsrule oh dear, sounds awful! does sound like teething to me, I think you're right to carry on though.
bartilmaeus sounds like it went a lot better than bungalows, sorry bungalows.

FushiasFairy Fri 27-Apr-12 15:19:52

Thanks for the reply nectarina, that's made me feel alot more confident! DD was so close to dropping off by herself (but she's too stubborn to give in!) so i'll keep at it!

DeathMetalMum Fri 27-Apr-12 20:40:57

Hi, we have done our own little take on this but since trying (and failing and giving in and feding dd) the first time last friday, dd has fallen asleep for the first time by herself smile shes 15 months nearly.
What we started doing was just leaving het in the cot I would reassure her sing etc whilst sitting/ standing next to her but she wasnt having any of it she wouldnt even lay down she just stood in the cot first she was very excitible then she would get very upset she even made herslef sick by sticking her hands down her throat it was horrible I was nearly in tears myself, I would have given up if she wasnt biting me everytime I was breastfeedig her to sleep. Something needed to change. So the next couple of nights we did the same and I ended up feedig a very exhausted dd to sleep after around an hour of leaving her it was the only way I thought she would calm down, next night however (after more biting) I got her out and refused to feed her just rocked her to sleep took about 20 minutes and lots of crying but she fell asleep without the breast in her mouth, she slept pretty much from 9 until 5.30 not waking whereas she was waking once or twice before. Last night was terrible again lots of rocking and crying but she didnt fall asleep until 10.15 it took df to rock her to sleep he gets back from work just before 10 so couldnt help earlier but im sure she would have been asleep much quicker if her was to take over earlier, she woke at 6.30. Tonight she was in the cot 30 minutes no crying little standing and she was asleep I am so happy that she has finall fallen asleep by herslef. Im sure she will throw a spanner in the works in the middle of the night but will tackle that one as it comes. (sorry if there are no paragraphs abd for any spelling I am using my phone).

Bartiimaeus Sat 28-Apr-12 20:08:46

10 mins to go to sleep tonight! No crying, no need to pick DS up or rock or feed him...a first!

Naps weren't successful today though, ended up using the sling cos we didnt have time to wait it out.

Fairly good night last night-i only had to get up twice and once was cos the neighbour woke DS up at 5am argh!

Am so motivated to keep going though!

FushiasFairy Sat 28-Apr-12 20:35:14

Call me a wimp, but I think i'm going to back out of this sad
DD just seems to be getting more distressed a lot quicker each night,
and i'm not keen on carrying on.

I think i'm just going to lie her in bed and feed her to sleep for now,
instead of holding her and maybe move on from that.

Good luck to everyone else though smile

DonkeyTeapot Tue 01-May-12 10:27:39

Hello people, I confess I haven't read the whole thread, I am going to go back and read it all but I wanted to post as I am so desperate for some support. sad

DD is 9mo, she goes off to sleep fine at bedtime (although she does fall asleep on the bottle - I only stopped bf a week or so ago but she has been having a bottle at bedtime for a couple of months). The problem is that she is still waking in the night, and taking literally hours to settle again. I suspected the night waking was habit, not hunger, so stopped the night feeds. She wakes up cheerful enough in the morning, not ravenous, so I'm sure it is just habit. I have been putting into practise the method from this thread, but it basically means I sit by her cot whilst she moans and grumbles, not proper crying. She does that for maybe 40 min, but then lays there quietly as if she's falling asleep. I wait 20 - 30 min before I leave her, and ten minutes later she's grumbling again.

I stopped the night feeds ten nights ago, and since then either DP or I have been up at least two hours with her in the night. We don't take her out of her cot, we comfort her with gentle shh-ing and a hand on her back, until she is quiet.

I know we need to change the routine so that the bottle is not the last thing, I just saw a post suggesting putting her in the sleeping bag after the bottle, we've always put her in it before, so that's something we can change. I suppose I am just looking for some clues, because I just cannot continue like this. Last night I had to send DP in to her as I was getting so wound up I just wanted to scream SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP at her. I try to avoid disturbing him in the night as he works with dangerous machinery but I am at my wits end.

Sorry for the massive post, and I know I have it a lot better than some, but I just need to get her sleeping through. I have to go back to work soon and my request for flexible working has been refused so we've got to crack this. Thank you.

nectarina Tue 01-May-12 18:06:23

donkeyteapot you can be forgiven for not reading the whole lot since there are nearly 400 messages! If you are still giving the bottle to sleep that is the number one thing you have to change (I didn't quite get whether you still do or not). This'll make the evening harder for a few nights, but it'll sort out the night wakings. See how it goes in 4 days or so.

DonkeyTeapot Tue 01-May-12 19:32:24

Hi nectarina, yes, DD is still feeding to sleep on the bottle. Sorry my last message was a bit garbled. I think if she wakes in the night tonight she can have whatever she likes, as I just do not have the strength to go through another night like last night. DP is brilliant and very supportive, and will come and help if need be, but he doesn't always wake up when she cries so it's always me that has to get up. Maybe I'll take a few nights to gather my strength and prepare myself, and then see about changing our bedtime routine. Thanks again.

Bartiimaeus Wed 02-May-12 13:03:22

Well, after a few days of trying here is what's happening for us:

Getting easier and easier to get DS to sleep in the evening, without having to feed him.

He self-settles a lot in the night when he wakes up.

But when he can't self-settle this technique isn't working and I end up breastfeeding him.

However the last two nights I've totally changed everything because we're decorating and so DS is sleeping in a different room and there is no room for a chair for me so I fed him off to sleep. However, he has only woken up once per night! Again I fed him, very quick feed and he was off to sleep again no problem!

So, no idea what effect this technique has had but I think it means he is happier to go into his cot in the evening without being totally asleep and he can self-settle sometimes in the night but not always.

Will go back to trying the technique again tonight when we move DS back into his room

nectarina Thu 03-May-12 19:33:58

donkeyteapot how about doing whatever it takes at night but implementing this in the evenings to get going. You might find that this improves by itself.

DonkeyTeapot Thu 03-May-12 22:39:11

Hi Nectarina, I think you might be right. We have changed the bedtime routine now, it used to be

Bath, nightclothes on, into sleeping bag, say goodnight to the animals (farm yard animal transfers on her walls), then bottle and into bed - she'd usually still be awake, but would drop off quickly, normally with not much fuss.

Now she has her bottle downstairs while she's fully dressed, then upstairs to bath, nightclothes on, into sleeping bag, say goodnight to the animals, story, bed.

Last night was the first night and she actually fell asleep immediately without a single cry! A fluke, I think. But she woke up at 3.30 and was up for 1hr 15min. Tonight there was half an hour of crying before she fell asleep.

I've been waiting about 5 min before going in to her when she wakes, I'd have left it longer but when she woke me I was dying for the loo and knew she'd hear me. If I can I'll leave it the 10 min, but then I will give her the bottle straight away, rather than trying for an hour and then giving in.

nectarina Fri 04-May-12 09:59:03

donkeyteapot yes I would do that for the time being - If DD is hungry, then feeding straight away will break the habit of being up for ages in the middle of the night. You can then work on breaking the bottle in the night habit later on down the line. Just make sure that once she's had the bottle she goes down awake. You're doing well.

cmm Fri 04-May-12 20:18:29

Oh gosh, it's so hard, my little boy took to it so well (see my posts earlier in thread!) and he's now terrible again don't know why! Know you shouldnt go back but had to go back a few steps as he's unsolvable. Any ideas? X

DonkeyTeapot Sat 05-May-12 09:31:50

Well, DD took about 20 min to go to sleep last night, she woke up at 4am and had a bottle and went straight back into the cot. She grumbled a bit but didn't cry so I went back to bed. She was quiet within a few minutes and didn't wake up until 7.30 this morning, so a much better night for us smile

slumberhungry Sat 05-May-12 18:53:02

Another vote of thanks here, as well as a query. We're on day 5 with a 6.5 month old DS who could self settle but who couldn't self re-settle. We were co-sleeping and he was waking often to feed to sleep. We got to the point of 90 min wake ups all evening and all night, so I reached the point of grim determination....

We've seen a big improvement, although a way to go. He's been in his cot for all the nights and all but 2 day time naps. On our best night he only woke up at 1am and 4am (although it took until 6 for him to go back to sleep from the 4am wake up. He was 'playing' in his cot for 45 mins of this). Generally, the first part of the night works well but once we get into the early hours (3am ish onwards) it's a lot more problematic and I find myself feeding him every couple of hours although putting him down awake afterwards.

A question for those with experience of this technique. Should I hold out more on the feeding in the early morning? He is just crying if I don't feed him which he doesn't do at other times. Is he likely to stop waking as much from 3am after a while or should I be feeding him less? He's been really hungry in the day since we started this method (for both solids and breast milk) so I wonder whether he's just re-balancing his calorie loading and it'll take a while or whether I'm creating a new dependency in the early hours that he'll only re-settle with a topped-up-tummy. he is a glutton of a baby who never says no to food

nectarina Sun 06-May-12 18:43:45

cmm we'll need a bit more information...
donkeyteapot well done, that sounds like heaven
slumberhungry I'd say that at that age you should probably leave at least one feed in place until ds is used to getting enough calories in the day.
I said it somewhere further up the thread, that i continued to feed dd in the night when she wanted it. She stopped waking for it of her own accord within a couple of weeks. So I don't recommend witholding feeds, just make sure ds goes down awake each time.

cmm Sun 06-May-12 19:43:22

Just checked last message and mean inconsolable not unsolvable!!! Just realised little thing has ear infection but no temp explains why so bad laid down. Will just go with it and then go back to holding hand or hand just in cot rather than no contact and moved away into chair as knows he not well, then will move slowly away from contact again, does that sound ok? He had got worse before that but will see how it goes, thanks again

chillikat Mon 07-May-12 09:49:18

I can't remember whether I've posted on this thread before... I'd love to try the technique but my 13mo DD screams when we put her in the cot awake.

DH tried last night for a while (to be honest I probably suggested he pick her up after 10 minutes) but she just screamed and screamed - I think she'll cry to exhaustion and sleep so it just feels like we're doing CIO but staying in the room sad no amount of patting or stroking seems to calm her. She's happy enough to be put in there during the day for a while but usually naps in the pushchair.

Should we keep up with her in the cot with us reassuring her through the screams until she's asleep? or maybe try for 30 minutes each night and see if it improves?

Any advice welcome.

nectarina Mon 07-May-12 18:09:54

Ok chillikat I think you shouldn't attempt this until you can put dd down without her screaming. I would try putting her in her cot and reading or singing or playing or whatever will get her used to being there without screaming. Then when she's more at ease you can try this technique - but don't do anything that makes your dd screaming til she's sick.
cmm its usually illness/teething that cocks it all up. Your plan sounds good to me. Let me know how it all goes.

DonkeyTeapot Tue 08-May-12 09:45:59

Hi gang. Hope everyone had a nice bank holiday.

Sunday night: Took about 30 min to go to sleep, but slept through til 5 before waking for a feed, then slept again until 8.00, sweet!

Monday night: Took about 2 min to go to sleep, but woke up at 11pm and again at 2am, when I fed her, and then she was up for the day at 6am.

There just seems to be no pattern whatsoever, I don't know how to tackle it as every night can be completely different. I just never know what sort of a night we're going to have.

nectarina Tue 08-May-12 19:16:06

donkeyteapot sounds like an improvement at least, and its still early days. Sounds like you do know how to tackle it, you might have to be a bit patient before you get consistent all nighters. (and know that things get screwed up with every tooth and illness)

chillikat Tue 08-May-12 21:09:39

Well, I gave it a go tonight after she was still awake after a good feed. I sat her in the cot rather than lying her down which seemed to work to avoid screaming. She spent probably a good half hour rearranging her toys, blanket and cushion occasionally lying on the cushion testing it out. Eventually, though she got upset and couldn't be calmed, even continuing to cry when i picked her up. Another short breastfeed and she's asleep and back in the cot.

I'm hopeful if we can avoid screaming at the beginning it might work eventually, it might just take even longer...

nectarina Wed 09-May-12 04:44:32

chillikat ok this sounds good to me - do the same every night and it'll work out. Let her play, and carry on trying to console her without picking her up. Consider it a weeks preparation for trying in earnest later, so you shouldn't feel bad about bf to sleep if it goes badly.

chillikat Wed 09-May-12 13:48:27

That's what I thought. It was going well for a good while and gave me hope. Apparently she has crawled off the the comfy corner at nursery and fallen asleep so I think she can do it.

slumberhungry Thu 10-May-12 09:19:06

Chillikat - your DD reminds me of our DD (now 3). For a long time the cot was a place she saw as evil - it took a lot of time and patience. You'll get there! Sounds like you're making great progress..

We're about 10 days in now with 6.5month old DS, but haven't retreated very far. We've definitely seen a huge improvement in sleep and have our evenings back which is magic!

I've now got a new and surprising issue. Does anyone else have trouble waking their baby after feeding. I never thought I'd be saying this a couple of weeks ago but I'm picking DS up when he needs feeding (between 11.30 and 1am usually), he feeds and falls back to sleep immediately. I take him off the breast, hold him upright, burp him, talk to him, blow gently on his face, tickle his chin and he just sleeps! I've spent two mins trying this before laying him in his cot. This then invariably means he's up 90-120 mins later and stays in that pattern the rest of the night. How do other people wake their babies after feeds? And how long does it take? I figure I need to wake him up before I lie him in the cot, not once he's in it.

He's also reliably awake for 1 hour now each night, around 3am (aargh!) which involves playing, and eventually more crying than any other falling asleep time where with lots of singing and patting he will go back to sleep. It's not desperately upset crying, just frustrated and will stop for 5 mins here and there before starting again...

Any advice/thoughts very welcome!

nectarina Thu 10-May-12 20:20:17

slumberhungry I found getting my evening back more of a reason to celebrate than not waking in the night. I suddenly felt more of a human to have a few hours to myself.
For your new and surprising issue, hmmm...how much do you feed him, just a bit or a lot? I wonder if you could experiment with feeding a bit less so that he's not fast asleep. This might help nightwean as well if that's something you'd like to do.
I'm not sure what you should do about the 3am party - sounds v. annoying. I can only suggest being patient, I don't think it will last long. (grasping at straws). Let us know how it goes.
chillikat oh my god, something is changing...our DD put her head on the sofa as if she was going to sleep - something we've never seen her do before. Lasted 2 secs.

TheSecretCervix Thu 10-May-12 20:44:01

Just wanted to thank the OP for this. My DS is 8.5 months and has never really altered his 'newborn' sleep pattern, what seemed manageable in the early days has started to feel pretty desperate! He only does little naps in the day and is up every couple of hours at night, we have been co-sleeping for most of the night but I still feel exhausted as he is just constantly attached to me! I am back at work 3 days a week so sleep is very much needed.
I came onto the 'sleep' board in desperation for some solution, I was beginning to consider CIO (even though this goes against all my parenting principles!) but I need SOME sleep!
So I'm not going to count my chickens and all that, but I feel like this technique has given us a place to start at least! I put DS done for a nap in his cot this afternoon, it took one hour fifteen minutes of clapping, rolling, chatting and hand standing before he eventually gave in and fell asleep for just over an hour, which is unheard of in the day, his usual cot naps (when he has fallen asleep on me and been put down) last about 15 minutes. It took him ten minutes of wriggling to fall asleep this evening, but no real tears. He woke about twenty minutes later but I gave him a quick stroke and then sat next to him for another 10 minutes until he fell asleep. He has now been asleep since 7pm, murmured once but went back to sleep.
I'm not looking forward to him waking in the night, as he is so used to having boob to fall asleep next to me but I am determined to try! Even if he can sleep in his cot some of the night I will be happy!
So thank you OP for giving me some hope... smile Sorry that's so long! I will update you tomorrow on the nights events!!

TheSecretCervix Thu 10-May-12 20:45:09

Also sorry for so many exclamation marks, obviously over excited with the potential thought of sleep ;)

slumberhungry Thu 10-May-12 23:30:49

Fingers crossed for you, Secret.. I'm with you on the exclamation marks at getting evenings back.

Nectarina I only feed him for about 5 mins, but then he only ever feeds for 5 mins - he just scoffs quickly (it's totally different to my experience of bf-ing my dd). After these night feeds (as in daytime feeds) he throws himself into an arched back and pulls himself off. He only ever used to do this when awake before trying this technique. A couple of weeks ago he would just suckle more gently when he was going back to sleep but now he gives me his dramatic 'I'm done' gesture and passes out. I don't think I can feed him for any less time. I'm going to try holding him for about 5 mins and keep trying to gently wake him in case there's a period of 'milk drunkness' that wears off a bit....

TheSecretCervix Fri 11-May-12 18:07:24

Thought I'd come back and update. DS slept from 7pm to 3am without waking at all - the biggest stretch of sleep he has ever done smile When he woke I gave him a feed (small steps) and then put him back in his cot awake. I had to stay with him for an hour whilst we had rolling, clapping etc but he finally fell asleep with minimal tears, he then woke at 5.30, I didn't have the energy to do another long sit out so I bought him into our bed! All-in-all a huge improvement.
I put him down for a morning nap and he fell asleep within 15 minutes and napped for an hour. He has been much happier and calmer today, which must be to do without him getting more sleep.
Hopefully it wasn't beginners luck - fingers crossed for tonight. Seeing results so quickly has made me feel very confident we can implement this and the fact that DS hasn't really cried at all makes me think he is ready for this too!

TheSecretCervix Fri 11-May-12 18:08:32

with getting

I've been following this thread since the beginning, but haven't had the guts to try this technique until now. For months I've been bfing my DD (now 15 months) and then lying down on the bed with her until she falls asleep and then transferring her carefully into the cot.

4 nights ago, I tried putting her in the cot after the breastfeed. She protested slightly, but really not very much. I made sure I stayed very, very close to her and sang to her as usual. After an hour or so she started to lie down and fell asleep. Tonight it took about 45 minutes for her to settle, so going in the right direction.

I think I may have a slight "head start" on this technique as DD could already self-settle to sleep, but only with me lying next to her, so it is a breakthrough with her going to sleep alone in her cot.

Night-times have been improving too - although DD is still waking up in the night, she is sleeping longer (i.e. waking at 3am, rather than 1am).

I'll keep you informed as to how we get on.

Wishing everyone a good sleep :-) Night all.

DonkeyTeapot Fri 11-May-12 22:19:23

Progress smile DD seems to have adjusted twell o the new bedtime routine, and the last two nights she has gone to sleep within about ten minutes, with no crying. I haven't stayed with her, as when I was staying in the room, she just kept sitting up and giving me big smiles and wanting to play. Last night when she did it I laid her back down and said "go to sleep now" and left the room, but stayed outside so I could hear. She didn't make a peep. Tonight she was quite playful and I wondered if she'd kick up a fuss, but she didn't, she lay down and I stayed for 30 seconds max, and left the room. I could hear her having a quiet chat with herself for two or three minutes, and that was it. She's still waking once or twice in the night so is still having a bottle then, sometimes it's 2am, sometimes it's 5am.

I am wondering about reducing the amount gradually, she normally takes about 150 - 180 ml, what does anyone think?

DonkeyTeapot Fri 11-May-12 23:03:50

That should say "adjusted well to"

GoodbyeToAllThat Sat 12-May-12 19:15:11

Sorry for piling in so late to this thread - I've been lurking ever since it started but found a million and one excuses not to try this out.

DD is 9 months, always been BF to sleep and never slept more than 3 hours without waking. Needless to say, I'm exhausted and desperate for a solution without having to leave her to cry it out alone - which was what our well meaning family and friends have been suggesting, but just isn't for us.

So, last night DH (I made him read the whole thread and he even took notes grin) and I decided we would start this new way of helpIng DD to settle. We knew it was going to be grim and it really was tough. After 30 mins of DD rolling about and playing in the cot, we had an hour of wailing and crying so took it in turns to pick up, comfort and put down again. Usually, we would have given up after 5 mins and I would have fed her to sleep. But, just before 8, she fell asleep. We heard a few little whimpers during the evening but each time she settled herself,

Just after midnight she woke again and was clearly hungry so we repeated as above with another hour of crying. It was really hard to bear.

BUT she then slept through 'til 6am! And she was all smiles - I was worried she'd hate me!

Tonight was a miracle: I put her down, she played for a bit, started to cry and this time instead of picking her up I just started to sing to her. And she drifted off to sleep! From putting her down, it took 20 mins.

I know these are very early days, and I haven't even got through the second night yet but I wanted to share this for anyone else who, like me, was thinking this sounded great in theory but would never work. Just seeing DD drift off by herself tonight has been amazing!

Nectarina thank you do much for taking the time to share this and for all the follow-up advice you've been giving. When my HV talked about "gradual withdrawal techniques" my sleep-deprived brain just didn't get it but everything you've written makes so much sense. Will update and am keeping my fingers crossed for everyone else making this change - here's to better sleep for us all.

nectarina Sun 13-May-12 19:14:53

slumberhungry how've you been getting on? I didn't really know what to suggest to be honest!
charliemouse and goodbye - well done, sounds like its going v. well! (and I'm enjoying mental image of DH taking notes. - I found that I had to read the technique back each night and I seemed to discover another thing that I wasn't quite doing right or had forgotten to do)
donkeyteapot have you tried reducing the amount of milk? I know some people have success watering the milk down, but I was still bf at the time and my method was sending in boobless OH.

slumberhungry Sun 13-May-12 23:13:46

It's so encouraging to hear how well it's going for people...

I've been working harder at waking him up properly after his first night feed (around 11) and am seeing some success there, he does wake up better 5 mins after finishing feeding. It may be that I need to leave it longer during the night before going to him (he feels too young to be left 10 mins) and get DH involved in the early hours soon too. DH normally does evenings and gets up with our early riser DD.

3am onwards is still a big issue and I've ended up bringing him in to co-sleep at 5.30am where he'll sleep til 8am, just out of sheer exhaustion. He is v hungry in the day despite 3 night feeds (at least) and has a bit of a cold so I'll just roll with it all for a while.

For the moment I'm reminding myself of all the progress made and trying to get myself to spend the evenings sleeping!

DonkeyTeapot Sun 13-May-12 23:30:05

Hi gang, hope it's going well for everyone. I don't want to jinx it but <whispers> tonight and the last couple of nights she has not cried at all, just put her head down and gone to sleep!

I did reduce the milk to 120ml, I might just prepare 90ml for tonight and see how that goes.

nectarina Mon 14-May-12 18:05:15

slumberhungry I think you're right to see these as flexible guidelines. If you're seeing some progress, then you have to congratulate yourself on that and not worry about the holy grail of sleeping 7-7 without a peep. I can't remember how old your dc is, but I think that 10mins is too long for any small child really. It feels like CC, which is not for ladies like us. Still, if baby is not ill or teething it is good to try to stop the reflex of jumping out of bed at the first cry. And to listen to the cry - I think I can decode DD better now.
donkeyteapot We haven't got to this point yet. DD still (after more than 4 months of doing this) makes a fuss about going to sleep. We keep wanting to do the gradual retreat but I wanted to wait until DD makes less of a fuss of it when one of us is in the room.
If anyone has any advice for me I would be very grateful...!

DonkeyTeapot Mon 14-May-12 20:53:52

nectarina I think DD found it more of a distraction me being there, to be honest. She kept sitting up and smiling and being all lovely and cute, so I couldn't help but smile and interact with her! I certainly couldn't get my phone out or do anything like that, no way she'd settle if she saw I had something she wants smile

Do you think if you left the room for a minute or two she'd get upset? I'm just wondering if it might work swapping things around. You're waiting for her to settle easier before you try leaving the room, but maybe if you did leave the room she might settle easier? I don't know, just an idea. Not suggesting leaving her if she does cry, btw, just wondering if it's worth seeing what happens if you just popped out for a moment.

Frankly I'm stunned to be where we are with DD's sleep just now, I thought all hell would break loose when we stopped feeding her to sleep.

nectarina Tue 15-May-12 16:41:40

there's no doubt whatsoever that my presence is a distraction - but when I leave the room she screams. So I don't really know what's for the best.

Bicnod Tue 15-May-12 19:47:17

Hello, can I join the party? DS2 is 10 months old and has never slept through. Usually wakes 2 to 5 times a night, I usually bf him sometime between 3 and 5 and want to move that to wake up time (anything with a 6 in it fine by me!). Always cuddled to sleep.

DS1 was a dreadful sleeper and didn't sleep well til 22 months...I really don't want a repeat performance!

Thank you nectarina for this thread, I think it could be my salvation (and save DS2 from being thrown out of the window at 2am)

Were on day 2 and so far so good. DS2 settled in cot at bedtime yesterday in 15 mins shock with singing and back rubbing from me and some crying from him. Woke at 21.15 and took half an hour to settle, cuddled to sleep as he was properly screaming by 20 mins and I couldn't take it sad then heard him settle himself at midnight shock, DH settled him in cot at 4.20 (took 50 mins) then up and morning feed at 6.45am!

Tonight he took 35 mins to fall asleep but NO crying and minimal intervention from me. fingers crossed for a good night tonight.

I am determined to crack this. I am so exhausted all the time I feel like a crap mummy to both my boys... this HAS to work.

All your positive stories give me hope so thanks to all of you!

nectarina Wed 16-May-12 16:46:53

bicnod you're very welcome. Well done on your rapid success.

Bicnod Thu 17-May-12 10:02:32

I literally can't believe I'm typing this. DS2 has slept through the last two nights, and last night he only took 10 mins to settle himself and no crying!

Nectarina thank you thank you thank you so much or posting this, I know we're likely to have relapses but at least I know he can do it!

Weirdly I actually feel more tired than usual confused

These thanks are for you nectarina grin

Tertius Thu 17-May-12 20:33:20

VERY encouraged by Bicnod...

Once this bout of teething and weird nap transition is over I will be having a go with dd who is 9 months. Really want a nights sleep soon!

But how do you do gradual withdrawal if you have another dc? I can't spend ages putting the baby to bed. Do you think if I do a very very mild cc for bedtime - in and out every 2 minutes - then I could use the sitting next to her in the night?

And Bicnod, do you think the fact that your baby was used to not getting s feed til 3 meant it was easier? My dd gets a feed from 1am. I should try and push this onwards.

At the moment she is being terrible.... Trying to transition to one nap but not managing it, waking all night and being hard to get back to sleep... I am slightly despairing so was very heartened to read Bicnod's good news! (I am afraid I recognise Bicnod's name from 3 years ago when I was having a similar time with my first?) he was better than my daughter though!

Shardlake Fri 18-May-12 00:55:53

Another new starter here smile I'm going to try this tonight, so so good to hear all the positive stories.

Our DD (first baby) is nearly 9 months and I have always fed her to sleep - at least since she was a few weeks old, anyway - for both nighttime and naps. She was a great sleeper at around 3-4 months old, guaranteed 8 hour stretches every night, but that feels like a LONG time ago now! She wakes at least every 2-3 hours, very often more frequently than that, and is increasingly difficult to settle in her cot as the night goes on, so for the past few months I have always ended up with her in bed with me by morning (in a bed in her room). Not good for either of us as she isn't getting enough sleep either, and I miss sleeping with her dad!

Will let you know how we get on, thanks so much for posting Nectarina.

Shardlake Fri 18-May-12 00:57:19

By 'tonight' I mean Friday night - am posting from the future (NZ)!

StrawberryMojito Fri 18-May-12 04:59:27

Hi, we are reaching the end of our tethers after 7 months of frequent night waking, unintentional co-sleeping, bf to sleep etc and want to give this a go. DS is currently teething and we go on holiday in 4 weeks. Should we start doing it now or wait until we return from holiday? There always seems to be reasons to put it off.

nectarina Fri 18-May-12 07:33:00

shardlake and tertius good luck! do let us know how it goes.
strawberrymojito I'd say unless DS is actually cutting a tooth, I'd wait a night or two, but if you mean the low-level teething that doesn't really end, I wouldn't wait.
As for holiday - definitely don't wait! You'll be very glad you didn't.
Bicnod wow!

Bicnod Fri 18-May-12 11:47:12

Hi other newbies smile

Tertius - yep, that was me with the incredible non-sleeping DS1. And now I'm back haunting the sleep threads again with DS2 confused sorry that you're here too, although nice to see you!

Last night was night 3 and DS2 settled with a bit of shhhing but no touching and no crying in 15 mins. He woke once at 4.20am and I managed to settle him back to sleep without feeding him. Did have to give him a cuddle as his cries were ramping up but he fell asleep in his cot after that with shhing and a bit of back stroking until 6.30am. So although he didn't do a hat trick of sleeping through it was still a bloody good night.

Tertius - I think pushing back the early morning feed probably helped a bit, but to be honest he didn't seem that bothered about settling without it last night. I'm genuinely astounded at how well this method had worked so far. I think sometimes we poor sleep-deprived parents are to scared to change anything in case it gets worse.

Tertius Fri 18-May-12 13:19:47

Im definitely too scared to do anything - hate to hear her cry, don't want to lose any more sleep, some how can't manage the logistics with 2 children (getting her to nap enough or go to bed without falling asleep on the boob).

And also I do smallsteps - putting down awake and trying to not pick up in night. But then straight away she gets ill or teethes. It's almost a joke!

But I really want some sleep before I go back to work

Will it work if I confuse the issue with cc at bedtime (v mild version) and sitting by her in the night?.

nectarina Fri 18-May-12 18:29:48

tertius no you won't confuse the issue as its unlikely your DD will be wondering why you're combining two different sleep techniques! I'm imagining that you'll do something a bit like the last stage of the technique where you'll be going in and out to reassure baby, tidying up, doing imaginary errands and so on, in and out of her room. You'll have to let us know how you get on - I always wonder how people do these sorts of things with 2 children.

Tertius Fri 18-May-12 18:50:02

Exactly. Thanks nectarina. That's what I have done before.

My main trouble with dd is keeping her awake on the feed. I do it in the light after the bath and book... Don't want to move it to before the bath as I like her to go to bed relaxed - bath etc is a bit frantic with toddler. But she invariably falls asleep after one minutes feeding.

Bicnod Fri 18-May-12 19:40:14

Night 4 and DS2 took 15 mins to drop off with me sitting in the room away from the cot and pretty much ignoring him. Lots of standing up, throwing himself down, general ooomphing around but no real crying. Phew! fingers crossed for another good night tonight.

Tertius - we're on holiday at the mo so DH is around to put DS1 to bed but we're going home tomorrow so will be me on my own from monday. I'm hoping by then I'll be able to plonk and go so that DS1 gets a decent bedtime story again.

I've moved (as in 4 nights ago) DS2's final bf to happen while bath is running, then get him out and dressed while DS2 still playing in bath. I'm hoping this is how it will work from monday: DS1 fed before bath, out of bath and in PJs, then get DS2 out and in PJs, leave him to potter in bedroom while put DS2 down - cuddle, tippy cup with a little cow's milk in, read peepo very quickly, in cot while singing one song then night night baby, sleepy time now and leave him to go to sleep while put DS1 to bed. Bedtime routine for DS2 as described takes about 5 mins so not too long for DS1 to have to wait.

Sounds good in theory... Not sure what will actually happen!

Tertius, any chance of getting help at bedtime for one week while getting DC2 used to new bedtime? Any relative or friend you can rope in to put DC1 to bed? I know how hard it is when you don't have help at bedtime as DH rarely home by then.

Bicnod Fri 18-May-12 19:46:55

Got all my DS1s and 2s muddled up confused Essentially get DS2 out bath first, then DS1, leave DS1 to potter while putting DS2 down.

Ihatemyphone, can't wait to have laptop back tomorrow.

Tertius Fri 18-May-12 19:56:37

Thank you Bicnod, maybe that would work for me then. It takes some bravery not to use the feed to get baby all drowsy tho. I managed that with my first and always relied on milk (breast then bottle) to get him sleepy. He did self settle from 7 months with me sitting next to him for a week. But I cant manage that with my second, she is just that much tireder. She conks.

Swapping breast before the bath and then A little extra milk (cow or formula) after is an excellent plan. Except she knows her routine and pushes away a bottle and twists round for a breast feed. Ummmmmmm

nectarina Fri 18-May-12 20:12:30

It takes some bravery not to use the feed to get baby all drowsy
Yes it does - this bit alone is the most important bit of the whole technique. You want the baby to know what its like to wind down, to be able to let themselves get drowsy, let themselves drift off to sleep. Its this thats going to help them at 3am so that they don't wake you. Its tempting to get them at least a bit sleepy, but really you have to put them down completely alert (if a bit subdued). We have a similar problem where dd gets very excited before her bath, so we feed after then books etc after that. Could that work?

Tertius Fri 18-May-12 21:26:15

Thanks Nectarina, I feared as much..... I am sure you are right.

I could try a book after the milk. I'd better work on it. They do at least need to be relaxed if not drowsy, surely?

Shardlake Sat 19-May-12 01:09:25

Hi all, we did Night 1 with our nearly 9 month old DD last night. Overall not too bad, but quite a bit of crying involved. We did the bedtime routine and then I BF her for about 10 mins until drowsy, then put her in the cot. Even this was a big step for me, as I've fed her to sleep every time for ages. She fell asleep after about 45 mins (much shorter than I was expecting) of me singing, patting, talking - with angry/frustrated crying from her, but lots of yawns and eye rubbing, for about 30 mins of that.

She slept from 8 to 11pm, but was then up from 11 to 2.30. She woke crying, so I picked her up and walked her around singing, then put her in the cot and DP and I took turns singing, patting etc next to her - lots of crying and one more pick up put down when she was really upset. She eventually fell asleep with DP playing lullaby music to her and pretending to be asleep himself. I didn't BF her but DP gave a bit of water and yoghurt at 2ish.

When she woke again at 4.30 I crumbled and BF her for a few mins and put her in the cot awake and drowsy. It took about 15/20 mins after that for her to fall asleep - most of that time she was crying. She then slept from about 5 to 7.30 (a very long stretch for her, for so late in the night), then up for the day.

I decided to go the whole hog and try the same routine for her nap this morning - short BF then in cot - and it only took about 15 mins (of crying) for her to fall asleep. She is still asleep now, more than 1.5 hours later - an all time record for her in her own cot (usually I nap alongside her in bed).

So feels like we're making a bit of progress here! It's difficult sitting by while she cries, but I feel like since one of us is always with her it's not so hard on her, she knows we're there.

I'm hoping that I am not messing things up by feeding her for a little while before she goes in the cot at night - not doing that seems a step too far at the moment, since she is so used to being fed completely to sleep. Anyway, we'll see how it goes! Cheers, am off for a brew smile

nectarina Sat 19-May-12 10:44:21

tertius yep relaxed but not drowsy is perfect.
shardlake for a first night i'd say that its gone splendidly. Some babies get a lot worse for night wakings in the first 3 days. I would keep one feed a night for a bit - just make sure she goes into cot awake.

slumberhungry Sun 20-May-12 22:32:11

Wow, Bicnod! And Tertius - if only I'd known about mumsnet 2.5 years ago. My DC1 was a truly awful sleeper too. Funny, I managed to convince myself that we were bound to get a good sleeper with DC2. That said, DS (7 months) doesn't seem as awful as DD was, but it's all relative..

After lots of progress, we're having some minor setbacks. I spent 2 nights back to co-sleeping. They were 2 nights away from home without DH with paper thin walls. I was terrified that DS would wake DD in the night and I'd have no hope of getting anyone back to sleep at 4am. He's now back to waking every 1.5 hours or 2 hours, so we're stepping back to beginning. I also fed him in the night a lot and I think he became reliant on b/feed to get drowsy before re-settling. Now he only gets fed with a gap of at least 4 hours from the previous feed!

Bedtime routines with 2 kids and 1 adult are tricky. I started this initially when DH was around for a few days. A weekend might be a good time to start.

I split feed, so DS has b/feed in the bathroom before bath while the bath is running and I'm trying to convince DD to remove her clothing. DS has a quick dip, then is dried etc while DD plays in the bath. He has a top up b'feed in the bathroom while I try to convince DD to get out of the bath. She plays in the bathroom while I put him down. This now takes 5 mins. I leave, go back to the bathroom, try to convince DD (yes, it's the theme of my life!) to brush her teeth, take her to her room and pop back to DS if I need to. DD 'reads' books on her own if I need to go to DS and if it's a really bad night she gets a ten min episode of her favourite programme on my iphone in bed.

Most nights now, though, I'm with him for 5 mins or less, leave him fully awake and am able to spend some lovely quality bedtime time with DD before leaving her awake and praying fervently that she sleeps past 5.30am

Tertius Mon 21-May-12 09:20:21

Thanks slumber. The split feed sounds like something I need to do. She isn't that keen on milk though and I have relied on feeding her when tired to get the feeds in... Funny to be off milk in the day but like it at night.

I am only feeding her twice now - at about 1:30 and 4:30 but cuddling her around 11 as well.

It really does seem to be one thing after another though and she now has a stinking cold (this after a virus then cutting a front tooth). I think I got about 3 days in between.

I guess there'll be a good time soon? But DH is away a lot from now and i would prefer to use this method at bedtime as she cries when I leave the room during the day anyway.

It's a waiting game at the moment.

Shardlake Tue 22-May-12 03:34:06

hi, thanks for the encouragement nectarina!

Things have fallen apart a bit at this end - we have had one long sleep on Night 2 (5.5 hours - wonderful), but other than that DD has been waking frequently and taking a long time to fall asleep again (other than the 1st sleep of the night; she has been settling quickly for that one). Last night was Night 4 and, after falling asleep very quickly (after about 10 mins in cot) at 7pm, she woke at 8.30pm and was really inconsolable - a different type of crying, not just pissed off but the really hiccup-y scared kind, so we decided to call it off for the night and I fed her and co-slept.

I think maybe we are taking things too quickly trying to always settle her in the cot, plus reduce night feeds, simultaneously. When I put her down in the cot awake she is pretty much always crying herself all the way to sleep (albeit with my or DP's company tummy-rubbing and singing) - she doesn't go through the awake, settling down (not crying) stage at all. This seems justifiable if it is just 5-10 mins of crying then a nice long sleep for her, but not if it is lots of crying then a short sleep then lots more crying. It's still early days though so we'll stick with it a little longer and see if things improve.

hope its all going ok with you slumber, tertius and other sleepy mums, best of luck

GirlWithTheMouseyHair Tue 22-May-12 05:56:36

hi all - can I join for support? I don't think we have it quite as bad as some - DD generally wakes in the night just to be fed (she's 6months and not weaning yet so I expect her to need 2 feeds between bedtime and morning) but getting her down for bed and naps has become a total nightmare - used to rock or feed her to sleep now nothing works to calm her and I'm exhausted.

Did the gradual thing tonight at bedtime, looking back it took about 50mins and though she screamed longer and harder than she ever has in her life I lasted a lot longer keeping calm than usual (usually I end up sobbing over her sobbing in my arms!)

She's woken a few times since (which she doesn't normally do) - first time I gave her back her dummy and she sucked a bit, popped it out and went back to sleep - but then woke again 20mins later so afraid I fed her.

DH is going to give her her first formula tonight so I can get to bed now and we're starting weaning tomorrow because I think the feeds are creeping up because she's ready.

Question - am I going to have to get rid of the dummy? She doesn't wake in the night for it (yet!), am I not really doing this right if she has it?

nectarina Tue 22-May-12 09:38:09

shardlake yes that sounds about right - put a bad night behind you and carry on. just feed if you think hungry, but put down awake.
girlwithmouseyhair if you can be bothered to trawl through the whole thread there were quite a few discussions on the topic of dummies. On the one hand, you could think about doing this as gradually and gently as possible (which is what a lot of posters thought best). On the other, you are trying to teach baby to go to sleep on her own in a way that can be reproduced when you aren't there. You are right in thinking that she might well start waking for it in the night later on. I'll leave it up to you to decide, but I think if after 10days its not working you might have to ditch the dummy. That's probably not what you wanted to hear!

GirlWithTheMouseyHair Tue 22-May-12 09:49:16

Thanks! Am slowly making my way through the rest of the thread and have reached the first conversation about dummies! My mum and I came up with this "plan" then found this thread so thought I'd join then take time to read back over while we were doing it.

I'm sure this'll be covered too - I've seen already there are/were others doing it with 6months, but I'm going to carry on feeding her at night because I don't think she needs to be night weaned yet (she tends to just feed once or twice), that's not going to be confusing for her is it?

My only real reason for wanting to keep the dummy is she's a real thumb and finger sucker already, hoping dummy will prevent that habit growing while she's little (have never caught her thumb sucking to settle or in her sleep)

weedoll Tue 22-May-12 15:26:12

Hey all! I'm back again after another month or so of co-sleeping. Fell off the wagon after a holiday messed things up just as things were really improving, typical!! This is night 5 and going better than I thought. Bed between 7-8, up at 12 (fed) 2ish (fed) and 4-5ish (fed). I can't get my head round not feeding him at night because DS2 doesn't take a bottle really so minimal milk during the day and I've recently cut out daytime breastfeeds, so I can't rule out hunger. Also I'm normally so exhausted I forget what my plan was during the day! I think I'm doing this wrong now that I'm writing this...