How long can a 7 mo cry for because they don't want to go to sleep?

[Rachel153]

My 7mo dd is v strong willed. Dh and I feel some kind of sleep training is needed as she is a nightmare at bedtime and nap times and wakes frequently in the night and needs rocking back to sleep.
Last night she was awake 11-12 and eventually fell asleep on me but the minute I put her in cot she woke up (this is v common). As she didn't cry, only moaned for a couple of mins I didn't get her back out. She then started playing there so I sat by the cot and let her get on with it. When she started moaning I tried encouraging her to lie down but how much can a 7mo understand?
Eventually her moans turned to cries and then complete meltdown. I didn't get her out for 25 mins because I was sure there was no problem. I gave in and picked her up, calmed her down and got her drowsy. Back into the cot. Straightaway hysterical sobbing. This went on for 1.5hrs- getting her out every so often to calm her down. By the time she'd been up and down for 3 hrs I admitted defeat and dh rocked her to sleep.

We had hoped to start gradual retreat but after last nights escapade I feel completely broken and really don't think it's going to work.

Anyone got any suggestions as To what might be going on? How can a baby so young be so much more strong willed than her mother? She was exhausted but still wouldn't stop fighting.

hiya poor you. I had similar with my dd, and I think picking her up, calming her etc was confusing. when we made the decision to sleep train we kept her in her cot and shh'd stroked etc. it took over 2 hours the first time but quickly improved. we then did gradual retreat as you say. as we did it it's hard but the point is to get them to sleep without a prop. good luck

She's not "strong willed," she just needs your reassurance and touch in the same way she needs food. If rocking her to sleep is working, why mess with that? When she's older she will be able to sleep without you holding or touching her, but 7 months is still very young. Would you be willing to explore options like using a sling or cosleeping?

Thanks :) when you did it, did you not pick dd up at all for 2 hrs? Did she calm down at all in that time or only when she fell asleep?

She was exhausted but still wouldn't stop fighting.

She's fighting BECAUSE she's exhausted - she's desperate to get back to sleep and rocking is the only way she knows how.

All babies - in fact all people - rouse naturally in the night. The ones that 'sleep through' are simply putting themselves back to sleep at the end of a sleep cycle, as we all do.

What happens with her naps?

Coughle- I cannot manage to rock her to sleep anymore, she is too heavy for me when dh not around and I have cfs/me. She takes a long time to go to sleep like this, and most times wakes up as soon as she goes in cot so that means I have
To keep getting her out and I'm in so much pain.
Co sleeping not an option-I have tried a few times but I'm such a light sleeper so I've never got any sleep.
I know all babies are different but if we don't try to help her learn to sleep alone soon I am not going to be able to look after her properly due to being so exhausted.

Look at this thread OP
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2203154-Im-afraid-this-is-another-non-sleeping-baby-one-support-please?

And the thread that I link to, on that thread

If she is strong willed then she gets it from you. Not many people can endure 25 minutes of baby cries in close proximity.

Her naps are short and sparse. She's never been a good sleeper in the day. Some days she'll manage 2 45min naps And other days she'll only get 35 mins all day. On Monday she needed a nap by 1045. I rocked her to sleep, she woke up as soon as I put her in cot. I got her out, fell asleep again but woke up as soon as she was put in cot. I got her out again but she wouldn't go to sleep. I tried for ages, but then it was too close to feed time and she wasn't showing any signs of being sleepy so we went back downstairs. She stayed awake over 6hrs from when she woke for the day. That doesn't seem right to me.

Sling wearing and going for walks everytime she needs to sleep is not an option. I have very limited energy and a tiny frame. I want to care for her as best I can and listen to her needs but if she continues this way for much longer I won't be able to. I'm not expecting her to sleep through the night without waking-I wake frequently, it's normal I get that but I do need her to sleep in her cot and not on me. Other babies do it so why can't mine. Unless it is just because she's so determined to get her own way.

I'd rather "endure" 25 mins of baby cry sat by the cot singing, stroking whatever than in a different room like with cc.
I know the topic of sleeping is one with many different opinions but surely we are all trying to teach our children good sleep habits ? If I sit cuddling dd all night and let her poke me and play, that is giving her the message that she doesn't need to go to sleep. To me that is not teaching good sleep habits.

It's not about being determined to get her own way. Babies basically learn from what I've taught. She's always been rocked to sleep so she doesn't know how to sleep without being rocked. It's nothing to do with her 'will' and everything to do with sleep associations that have developed. I understand that it must be very difficult for you. The thread linked to above has some great advice, have a read through. The best thing to do is stick with a method and see it through, even though it is tough in the short term.
FWIW we had a similar issue with DD, however I carried on cuddling her to sleep and now at 11 months she is (almost) sleeping through!

What time does your DD wake up? Just that mine is up at 7am and needs a nap by around 9.30am which is fairly common I think. It sounds like your DD might be getting over tired, and therefore struggling to wind down to sleep. 6 hours is definitely a long time for a baby that age to last without a sleep, although mine did it occasionally too!

It's perfectly normal for a baby if that age to need a nap by 9am. Do you leave the room when she is awake - you said she was awake and playing I would have left the room then? Does she have a bedtime routine? Calm, bath, cuddle put to bed awake? She isn't demanding anything from you, she's not strong willed, she's not determined. She's just a baby and going to sleep the only way she knows how.

I found that when I put DS down in his cot, he stirred and woke, but if I lay him on his side then stayed and rubbed his back and patted the mattress he would drift off to sleep again. Just setting him in has never works for us, he seems to know the minute he touches the mattress.

It sounds like you resent her (understandable when you're exhausted yourself) but she's just a baby and crying is her only way of communication.

Have you thought of charities like homestart that might be able to give you a bit of support in the day?

Mine woke every 2 hours for a feed for the first year and then slept a lot better.

If she's not ssleeping in the day overtiredness will affect night sleeps.

Can you take her for a walk in a buggy just until she drops off and then come back?

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions.

I have tried before to leave the room when she's been happy "playing" in her cot but she would go into meltdown so I decided to stay with her this time, hoping that she'd feel more secure if I didn't disappear.

I do try to take her for walks when I can but she rarely goes to sleep before 30 mins and I can't walk for that long, esp when she wakes up the second you stop pushing. I then feel more exhausted due to exerting myself and find looking after her even more tough.

I always knew having a long term health prob and looking after a baby was going to be challenging but no one can ever prepare you for it or tell you what your baby is going to be like. I don't mean to resent her but it just makes me feel like a rubbish parent when I can't go out and do things with her. She's such a fast paced interesting little girl and I feel like I'm holding her back

Ps someone asked about naps...
I've always believed sleep breeds sleep but I've no idea how to get her to have all the sleep she needs during the day when she refuses to sleep. She wakes up any time between 6 and 745am and usually is ready for a nap 2-2.5hrs later. I always watch for cues-I know all about overtiredness. She doesn't go down easier if I try earlier. The times that I've tried putting her to bed tired but not too tired, she's done the same crying etc and then is more difficult to help get to sleep because she's got herself wound up and overtired!!

Rachel it must be very tough. do you have a partner?
for us dd cried on/off for 45 mins, with me sat right there. the rest of the time she was sucking her thumb trying to sleep, brief cries, repeat. I'd been feeding at each wake up so not as hard as rocking, but it was harder before it got better so if you have family who could help you rest in the day that would be best

I agree on the naps. mine is 11m, up between 6-7 and naps at 9. could you lie on the bed with her for naps, would that help? I used to put dd on my chest and jiggle, then rest while she slept. I think she should be awake 2.5 hrs max then try and get her to nap. also you could put her in the pram, sit in the living room, pram shade on, rock the pram? she is likely in a cycle of over tiredness. maybe at the weekend someone else could walk her to get her to sleep

also fwiw with my daughter she wasn't crying because she didn't want to sleep but because she couldn't. I kept my Hans firmly on her tummy and said shh sleepytime. and kept it there till 15min after she was asleep, so in a deep sleep. she was about 6.5m

could you try a nap routine if you don't do one? similar to bedtime? story/song etc. I think the key is consistency. they learn quickly

I think you also resent her because "if other babies can do it why can't she". There are a lot of examples even on this thread that other babies don't do it or rather don't do it straightaway. You are not the only mother struggling with exhaustion and she is not the only baby struggling with sleep. DS didn't sleep for more than 40 minutes at a time for the first 9 months and I had what some call false arthritis (?) which affects some breast feeding mothers and causes significant pain at any movement and stiffness in joints. What helped me is that I knew that most mothers struggle with lack of sleep and that I didn't know of any 1 year olds that slept for only 40 minutes at a time. I just rejoiced when it was 43 or 50 minutes of sleep.

I agree with cowpat

"She isn't demanding anything from you, she's not strong willed, she's not determined. She's just a baby and going to sleep the only way she knows how."

She will be exhausted from all that crying and unable to self soothe.
Can you lean over cot to stroke / soothe her?
She needs to feel you/smell you/hear you to get her relaxed enough to be able to self settle.

You have to be really really patient.
She is very young still.
Many many many babies are 'like this' at this age.

I know it is hard when you are in pain/ill too (been there!)
You are NOT a rubbish parent. You are doing your best.

I'm afraid what worked for me won't be helpful for you (breastfed to sleep and co-sleeping), but I do think it will help you mentally if you stop thinking she is strong-willed or that there is something wrong with her sleep.

When mine went through phases of not sleeping well for whatever reason, once I accepted that they weren't out there to ruin my life, that it was not a battle of wills or that there was something wrong with them or me, it made it much easier to go with it knowing it would pass.

She is very, very young, she needs reassurance not a battle.

Just about naps - someone told me about an automatic pram rocker that you can get on amazon, is there any way she'd go to sleep if you rocked her in her pram in the house and then set the pram on the rocker?

I have no idea if this is the one, but there's only two that i found when i searched and this is half price at the moment - www.amazon.co.uk/Robopax-Baby-Rocker-Automatic-included

Yes I have a very supportive husband.
For those of you who have been successful with any settling techniques- with consistency being the key, if dd is howling for x amount of time, should I keep picking up to settle? So far, once she's hysterical, she hasn't calmed down unless I pick her up. I have tried stroking and patting but she grabs at my hand as if to say "get off".
Also, she had recently taken to sleeping on her tummy. I always put her into the cot on her back but she always rolls over-in her distress she gets onto all 4s and rocks back and forth but I've never seen her get back onto her back. She is crawling and can easily go from crawling to sitting. I just want to know if I should leave her on all fours or keep putting her on her back? I don't want to force her to sleep on her tummy by not moving her but also don't want to force back sleeping if she's not comfortable. Oh the perils!

we did a lot of ssshhhhh-patting/stroking through the cot, some nights we could be there a while, others not so long. May sure you have a comfortable chair by the side of the cot and a blanket to keep you warm. Take it in turns.

Does she have a comforter in the cot with her - I mean a blankie toy or a blanket or a T shirt that smells of you? DD would stroke her blankie bunny's ears while getting herself back to sleep. She has never had a night without this toy (she's now 4.9), it helps her so much (we have a spare!).

Napping - at that age she napped for 90 mins at about 9.30 (up at about 7), then 30 mins after lunch and 30 mins at about 4ish - any attempt to extent those 2 naps was futile so I abandoned that!

Are you absolutely certain that she isn't hungry or teething? DD appeared to night-wean herself at 5 months but looking back I do wonder if perhaps she might have been hungry sometimes.

I think on her tummy is fine at this age. Is she in a sleeping bag - I would really recommend it, you can get different togs.

Another ps!
We have had the same bedtime routine since she was 8 weeks old. It worked until the 4 month sleep regression

As she very often doesn't get enough sleep during the day she is understandably shattered by bedtime and will 50% of the time feed to sleep -I don't know how to avoid this. As I said before I have tried so hard to sort out her daytime sleep but it's all a vicious circle.
I guess with everything it's a matter of opinion but I'm wondering do I a) sort out bedtime/night time first b) sort naps/ daytime sleep first or c) do the whole lot at once?