How long can a 7 mo cry for because they don't want to go to sleep?

[Rachel153]

My 7mo dd is v strong willed. Dh and I feel some kind of sleep training is needed as she is a nightmare at bedtime and nap times and wakes frequently in the night and needs rocking back to sleep.
Last night she was awake 11-12 and eventually fell asleep on me but the minute I put her in cot she woke up (this is v common). As she didn't cry, only moaned for a couple of mins I didn't get her back out. She then started playing there so I sat by the cot and let her get on with it. When she started moaning I tried encouraging her to lie down but how much can a 7mo understand?
Eventually her moans turned to cries and then complete meltdown. I didn't get her out for 25 mins because I was sure there was no problem. I gave in and picked her up, calmed her down and got her drowsy. Back into the cot. Straightaway hysterical sobbing. This went on for 1.5hrs- getting her out every so often to calm her down. By the time she'd been up and down for 3 hrs I admitted defeat and dh rocked her to sleep.

We had hoped to start gradual retreat but after last nights escapade I feel completely broken and really don't think it's going to work.

Anyone got any suggestions as To what might be going on? How can a baby so young be so much more strong willed than her mother? She was exhausted but still wouldn't stop fighting.

Rach I really feel for you. I had this with DD2 when she was a bit younger. I would stick with the sleep training as you'll get there and feel much better for it. I ended up hiring a sleep consultant as I needed someone to help me through and tell me what I was doing was OK. There will be tears coz you're changing DD's routine and she doesn't understand that. But I really believe it's for the best as she's obviously not able to sleep properly with being rocked plus you're frazzled.

Have you seen this thread btw OP? It might be useful as it gives steps over 10 days - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/1394888-What-worked-for-us-Hope-this-helps

I think she will do better with you not in the room. Essentially, I think that controlled crying will work best. It sounds like she is getting a bit wound up with you being there - essentially, 'Mummy, I'm tired, why aren't you doing what you used to do?'

Unfortunately, she doesn't quite understand you just telling her that you can't rock her to sleep because she's a 7 month old lump now and you'd quite like to lay down and get some kip yourself.

I would do the bedtime routine of bath, if required, pjs, milk, teeth, book and bed. This order is important to avoid any negative sleep associations from the routine.

Then a nice cuddle, love yous and into bed with a teddybear or twenty

Then leave her be. Ideally she should go into her cot awake so she rouses where she falls asleep. Leave her for 5 minutes and then go in. In a soft voice say something along the lines of 'it's okay, it's just time to go to sleep now' a quick stroke of the head and then go. Try to stay in the room for less than a minute. Then 10 minutes and repeat and then 15 minutes and repeat.

Do this for everytime you want her to sleep and in 3 days she should be approximately 1000 times better.

I used to give DS on pram nap a day as I wanted him to be able to sleep when out and about.

In terms of routine, at 7 months she should be having 2-3 sleeps with an awake time length of 2.25-2.75 hours in between - see this chart for guidance

Thanks for all your kind words. I appreciate all the suggestions.
I can usually just about manage to get her to have 2 naps a day but 3 is impossible. And unfortunately if her 2nd nap ends earlier than 4pm (which usually it does) then getting her through dinner and the bedtime routine is very challenging (though asking around I think it's very common for babies to find this final period of the day difficult). We do a bath every night because she's feeding herself dinner so gets very messy, followed by milk, story then bed (she doesn't have any teeth yet and I'm dreading adding that into the routine the way things are at the moment!) but I think I said before that 50% of the time (possibly more) she falls asleep on the milk because she's so tired. I would love to be able to read her a story in bed every night!

Can anyone offer any answers to my question - How can I be consistent with the "sleep training" (whatever the method) if she can't get through the whole routine?

I suggest forcing an afternoon nap - pram by dh or car. even if 15/ 20 mins. then if she falls asleep on the boob just rouse her a little. rub her back, read her a story

I shall give it a good go. What do you guys all do about getting dinner cooked though? Anyone else doing baby led weaning? At the moment we've been doing the bedtime routine as soon as she finishes eating because she's crying with tiredness and is mucky. To me it seems wrong to be having a milk feed so close to dinner. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking?

I have me/cfs and found it really tricky with a small baby. I think only now I'm out the otherside do I realise what a fog I was in for that time.

Have you thought about homestart or any support for you? Lack of sleep/broken sleep alongside me/cfs is really really really tough.

We started with the afterlunch nap - I'd walk her in the buggy if I could as she soon learnt that we slept after lunch so it didn't take too long, I could then wheel her into the house and sleep myself! T]Otherwise a car trip is good - pack a flask of coffee/chocolate/soup, take a book/mobile to play wiht and just do it every day after lunch until sleep happens.

We did Blw and to be honest I didn't worry about milk feeds - its all food so if she asked for milk I fed her....

Our pram nap was also the nap at 4.30-5 pm for us, I'd then get on with dinner when DH got home or he'd do dinner. At this point I was back to work though so DS would get a pouch of something Ella's kitcheny a lot of the time and we'd eat after he went to bed.

Hopefully if you were consistent with trying to put this nap in place it might happen and then you'd find the routine would come a little easier.

I give her tea at 5, usually what we had the night before. then milk at 6.30. yes the late nap had to be moving here - don't think I ever managed it in the cot

I'd probably start with nights, we did and naps got better on their own. yes if she's overtired from day naps then nights may not be perfect but I think her main issue is sleep associations so work on that

Hi Rachel153, my eldest slept like a dream, honestly I had no idea what people complained about, my son on the otherhand....

In the end I co-slept with him right up to 10 months, and he would nap when we went for a walk with the buggy. He only went in his own cot because I had pneumonia. He used to be fine sleeping for anyone else, i.e. nursery or dad, but he always knew when I was home and he just wouldn't settle on his own.

I just had to give-in to it in the end, it was the only way we both got sleep.

It took some painfully long nights for DH to sleep train him at 10 months, and now he only sleeps if his big sister (2years) is in the same room as him. Sometimes he wont sleep and we have him with us in the lounge and he will fall asleep on me, and periodically open his eyes to check I am still there.

He is just one of those little babies who needs the extra cuddles and reassurance and I give it to him. But it does get to you and I hope you can get this sorted for both your sakes, but don't feel like a failure if you don't get your little one sleep trained now, they all get there in the end.

Thanks again for more helpful suggestions :)
I guess this is what people meant when they said having a baby was hardwork. You can't imagine it until it's happening!

Sounds tough but it will get better.

I'd have your main meal together at lunchtime so that she can have a lighter tea a bit earlier in the late afternoon. Then she may not be as tired for food. The mess may also be less with sandwiches etc rather than cooked food so avoiding the need for a nightly bath when she's knackered.
If she falls asleep on the bottle don't worry just sit with her until she's fast off then put her in bed. If she stays awake then do the whole routine.
Try to remember she isn't doing this because she's strong-willed or to get at you. Rocking to sleep is all she knows at the moment. But she will learn other ways.
Also don't worry about her sleeping on her tummy. If she sleeps better that way let her, at 7.5 months she'll be ok.
Hang in there.

Sorry I haven't answered everyone's questions. Will try to! I'm not sure how to tag people either!

Yes good idea about main meal at lunchtime. Will get my thinking cap on about what meals reheat well and try to batch cook some things.

I would love dd to sleep 1.5hrs consistently in a morning, I'm sure it would help her a lot. She has done it on occasion but I've not noticed a pattern as to when she does and when she only manages 40 mins.

I'm very happy for her to sleep on her tummy. I just wasn't sure if I should assume she's happy on her tummy, so when we get to doing the 'sleep training' (or whatever you like to call it) and she rolls onto her front and is crying I wasn't sure if I should leave her in that position and force her to fall asleep on her tummy or if she was more distressed because she couldn't get back into her back.

I have started using a sleeping bag tonight as the weather is much colder now and I'm sure she must feel a bit chilly (I needed a blanket last night)

She has 2 soft toys in her bed (soft cuddly comforter things) which I've been using since she was 10 weeks old but I have to say she seems indifferent about them. I've never seen her cuddling or stroking them against her face. The closest to that was her shoving it in her mouth which stifled her crying so unless that's her way of soothing herself then I'm not sure when she might start using it as a comforter! I've also tried dummies for months but she's never sucked them. Usually chews them like mad, tries to put any part of it in her mouth and eventually throws it as if to say "this is just keeping me awake"!

It's good to read so many of you explaining the reason for the inconsolable crying-that it's not a matter of will but a way of saying "I'm tired and I can't sleep". It's why I asked the question initially as I have no idea.

Can anyone recommend a good baby and toddler development book? Not that I have much time for reading but I've always been interested to know what to expect at different ages (as much as one can know being that all babies are different!)

Hey OP, to answer your last question, I liked the book ToddlerCalm (there is also BabyCalm). It's not the most dense text in terms of development, but I think it excellent at helping you to understand your child's experience of the world and herself.

I had SUCH a lightbulb moment when I realised that DD was howling because she was exhausted. Seems bloody obvious in retrospect but something about trying to get a small child to sleep erodes your ability to think clearly. It's like being in a maze in the dark, you end up questioning which way is up.

For the routine, I would let go of the idea of feeding to the clock and find something that works for you. At 7 months, two meals a day is plenty. At that age (I was doing BLW) DD was having something like 'breakfast' at 11 (she would wake, milk feed, nap - she was always very early with her first nap) and then eat post nap. Then she would have a second meal mid afternoon, when I felt she was in the best frame of mind. BLW is I think pretty stimulating and tiring for them - which is one fantastic reason to do it, as it a great sensory / play experience - but it maybe requires slightly different thinking. She'll be working her brain like mad - all her senses, and her motor skills too. And then that gave us plenty of time for bath, milk feed, stories, bed.

Once you have time to sort out your routine, move the milk feed earlier. So instead of bath, stories, feed, bed, do bath, feed, stories, bed.

Remember that baths are stimulating and raise their core temperature, which prevents sleep, so don't expect her to be able to sleep until at least half an hour after a warm bath.

Re staying with them and what to do. I think this depends so much on the LO and you have to judge best. Eg being held wouldn't help DD sleep and actually after a few minutes she'd thrash to get away. I daresay she wanted to get down and be free but back into the cot she went. Other babies are more calmed by it. Some are super stimulated by being picked up - or confused, and are sufficiently reassured by a hand on their back and your low voice. It's also what works for YOU. You need to find a way to be in the situation with her and remain calm, steady and reassuring.

Talking to them is really important I think. They understand a great deal, and certainly tone. I have a very specific tone for talking to DD at bedtime, low and sort of toneless, but warm.

rootypig - thanks so much this really helps. I didn't realise how much stimulation they get from blw but now you mention it it does seem obvious. I guess that's why she'll often be able to concentrate so much longer at lunchtime than dinner. Perhaps I shouldn't be doing 3 meals a day yet? I haven't had time to read the while blw book yet-is there a section in there that advises when to increase number of meals and introduce snacks?
Dd is now on formula 3 times a day and breast fed at bedtime. I felt I had to cut down the breast feeding due to my health but I (and dd) weren't ready to stop completely. It has definitely helped me not feel so drained even though I'm still exhausted (if that makes sense)

Also, at what age do they know that food can solve hunger? I was told that when you start weaning you should offer food fairly soon after a milk feed so that they're not too hungry because they won't know that food can fill them up.

Currently I've been following this sort of routine (dependant on when she wakes up and when she naps)

Milk on waking (630-730am at the mo)
Breakfast 30-40 mins later
Milk 11ish
Lunch starts somewhere between 1215-1
Milk 3pmish
Dinner starts 5ish
Milk 615/630ish

at what age do they know that food can solve hunger?

Am no expert but imagine it varies hugely baby to baby. DD is a milk / bottle monster (still, at 23mo) and didn't eat an appreciable quantity of food til she was about 9mo and scarfed down a pun net of blackberries . Now she is a veritable piglet but that's another thread. Otoh, puree / spoon fed babies I knew were eating three meals and dropping milk feeds at 7mo. So it's no use to you really! but I think you need to judge for yourself.

I would definitely try, if you think it will work: wake, big milk feed, quiet play, NAP (i.e. try an hour after waking, DD would happily do that at this age), then breakfast, then next feed. What do you think? At 7mo with BLW I think she will be getting most of her calories from milk, so don't be too worried about food / hunger yet (in terms of pushing breakfast back).

Sounds like an idea. She's never done big milk feeds though- generally in a morning she'll have 4oz and similar at late morn and afternoon feeds, though sometimes she's only had 2 or 3oz and very occasionally does decide she's more hungry so might manage 5oz. I have tried offering her milk more frequently incase it was that she's a little and often girl but it never worked. She'd just have 1-2oz instead.
I'll try and move her cooked meal to lunchtime and see if it helps

Having exactly the same problem with my 6 1/2 month old son. I can't even rock him to sleep, if he doesn't want to sleep then he doesn't and none of the methods I know have any effect on him at all. Sometimes he drifts of when he's in the buggy, but rarely for more than 15 mins or so. Most days he gets through with little cat naps when I walk my older child to nursery, but sometimes he has no sleep at all in the day. By the evening he's totally incorriageable and it's hard to get him to eat. He does drop off in the evening, usually between 8-9pm probably from total exhaustion and it's anyones guess how long he'll sleep after that. Some nights he'll go till 4am or later, other nights I'm up 3-4 times. I' trying to be firm, I try giving him his dummy first and it works maybe 50% of the time, but other times I have to feed him. Was really hoping to scale back the breast feeding now, but can't as it's the one thing that will settle him in the night at the mo if it's a bad night.
Trying to persuade him to nap right now and miserably failing. Have tried a breast feed, a bottle feed, a walk in the buggy, a cuddle with rocking and a dummy, just putting him in his cot and walking away, going back in with the dummy and giving him a back rub, letting him cry for a few minutes and going back in, letting him cry for a little longer and going back in.... all no good. He IS tired, he's exhausted and a little nap right now would make him a much easier baby to deal with for the rest of the day, but it looks like it's not happening.
Soory I can't help with any useful advice, just thought you might like to know you're not alone.

EstherCard so sorry to hear you're having a tough time too. Any chance your ds is ailing or teething? It's just that my dd has a cold (which may have explained her ultra frequent wakings a week ago, perhaps she had a bad throat which obv isn't visible to anyone).

Re the feeding to sleep. I was having the same problem day and night but due to health reasons I felt it had to change so I bit the bullet and stopped night feeds. The other reason for stopping them was because dd got really uncomfortable after the feeds and took up to 2 hrs to resettle in her cot. Do you have a partner or family member who could help out in the night with settling? We found that with hubbie doing all the night settling so she wouldn't smell my milk it really helped. She still wakes up multiple times a night but she's not uncomfortable.

We've just done sleepy training with our 6 month old as was feeding to sleep but he got 6 teeth and was biting and couldn't bear the pain anymore. He was also waking every 30-40 mins in the evening and 4-6 times overnight.

We put him in cot, drowsy, and sat with him, ssshhing and patting. We picked him up if he was hysterical, but otherwise just tried to reassure. If we did pick him up we'd put him back down as soon as he was calm. It was 2 hours the first night, 55 mins the second night, 20 mins the third night. Two weeks in it can be anything from 1-20 mins but it's definitely improving gradually. He also now naps in cot when he wouldn't before, with just a few mins crying. He also only wakes twice between 7-7 usually.

We've found if he doesn't cry(ie I move him into cot asleep) he always wakes 30-40 mins later, buy if he does cry even a bit then he tends to resettle himself.

It was hard, but something had to change. and he is much less tired and less grumpy in the day now.

There were a few days he was teething so we picked him up a but more, making sure he had calpol, teething granules / gel etc, as I am only ok about him crying if I am certain he isn't in pain, and it's just cause he's tired.

We will gradually retreat in coming weeks but not yet, currently still stay with him.

Hope that helps.

Also, if you do anything that involved crying, keep track of time! It really helps when you feel like they've been crying forever to check and see it's actually only 7 mins! And helps to show improvement.

I also read this article which I saw recommended on this forum. It's long but v v v helpful, esp re different methods and different types of cry.

community.babycenter.com/post/a5417415/how_to_successfully_teach_a_baby_to_sleep_-_3rd_ed

boopdoop thanks for sharing. Yes I've been doing a lot of thinking the past few days and have decided my next step is to try settling in the cot again (past attempts were epic fails but dd has responded so well to the modified routine I now do at nap and bedtimes that I feel she might actually be ready to try again, with the idea that it will lead to gradual retreat in time).

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions here. I've put a much more solid routine in place for naps based on the bedtime one and dd so far has been much quicker to fall asleep and has even done a couple of 1.5hr naps in cot!!! She's currently snoozing in the pushchair (3rd nap of the day!) so although I'm thoroughly worn out from forcing myself to go for a reasonably lengthy walk I'm so happy that dd is getting her sleep. Less than a week ago she was not getting a 3rd nap at all.
She also seems to be very happy in her new sleeping bags and likes to sleep on her tummy (often when we put her in cot asleep the first thing she does is roll over so I'm more confident that this is how she prefers to sleep).

Rocking chair? You can hold her but on a pillow so it is much less tiring. If you then rock less each day you can cuddle to sleep in a position comfortable for you both. You can them move to comforting her in the cot once she is happy going to sleep when stationary.

I have a similar problem with awful back pain so can't rock dd2 but DH does it to get her to sleep. I need him to stop as I can't do it so find it v difficult to get her to sleep.

Not thought of that one thanks! Might have to put my Ikea poang chair back in the room. Not technically a rocker but it does bounce a bit!