calling out in the night (a bit long-winded)

[Evita]

Hi, for everyone who's been patient enough to read my 'toddler cot drama' thread, this seems to be the next terrible installment.

Dd's almost 18 months and has been a good sleeper though we had to 'sleep train' her around 9 months or so and she's always grumbled a bit at being put to bed, but gone relatively quickly. I've had a problem getting her down for daytime naps in the last couple of weeks. Now she's started waking in the night around 2 or 3am. She doesn't scream, she just says my name over and over while standing up at her cot side. She sounds v. forlorn. She's got 3 molars all coming through at the same time and I know they're giving her problems as she's off her food and chewing her hands loads (has made them red raw in places). So the question is, do I go to her as she's suffering with her teeth, or do I ignore her so as to not set up a 'bad habit.' I've only found conflicting advice in my various baby manuals. Some say when they're ill all the rules go out the window, others say if you give in to this now you're asking for trouble in the future. So far I've been soft and gone down as it breaks my heart to hear her bleating little voice. I've given her calpol and a drink of water but she really did scream when I tried to put her back in the cot so I've ended up sitting with her and holding her until she's settled which has taken 2 hours (yes, I'm shattered!). The first night I went down was after about 10 mins of her calling me. The second was after 20. I've no idea how long she would stand saying my name if I didn't respond. What would other Mnetters do? She's a v. sweet little girl, hasn't done anything really 'manipulative' so far, though I know this is the age all that can start.

Sounds like it could be her teeth. Have you tried giving her Calpol and children's Nurofen together (yes you can do this!)before bed. That might tide her over for longer and stop her waking.

Have you also had her checked at docs for ear infection (always the most likely cause of night waking in my little ones) or throat infection.

Given that she has been a good sleeper in the past and is not going down in the daytime either I would defo say it is pain related in someway.

Like you I have never been able to leave them crying in the night - too worried that it is pain related and that they really need me. (I might be different if this was a frequent occurrence but my 2 have always slept well)!

I take mine into bed with us - I really can't cope with 2 hours of being up in the night. In our case they always settled really well as soon as we did this, so long as we had given them calpol.

Hope this is shortlived and that you get back to normal soon.

Thanks for your reply jmg. I really don't think she's ill with anything like an ear infection or throat etc. She's got no fever or other signs she showed when she's been ill before. I think it's a combination of teeth waking her up and then a new phase of separation-type anxiety which leads to her calling us rather than settling on her own. I did try to put her in bed with us last night but all she wanted to do was play! She's never been able to sleep with us, I wish she would, especially when something's up. The thing I'm most confused about is how best to handle it - do you think cuddling etc. will lead to my spoiling her usually excellent sleeping?

Ok, just to cut down my endless procrastinating and waffling, the main question is:

If your child is calling for you in the night because of a teething problem, do you try to maintain your usual routine or do you chuck all the rules out the window? If you do the latter, will the normal routine resume when the problem goes away?

I've always gone for the soft option I'm afraid! But on teh brighter side have never had any problems with them settling back into routine once the problem (whatever that is) has gone away.

That's reassuring to know, jmg. I'm tempted to do the soft option too. My heart can't bear to hear myself being called for and to ignore it. That reedy little voice, catching in the middle, saying 'mama ... mama' over and over like a little robot. Part of me likes the fact that she's confident I'll come. Another part of me worries It'll get in the way of her settling herself without me.

Does anyone else have any advice for me as I face another night of indecisive mothering?

If it was me, I would go into her but not speak to her and lie her down and give her teddy or whatever and put her music on. Then go to the CC if you can. It is hard but she might set up a pattern and then you are stuck. CC is fine if you have it in your mind to do it and stick to it. I know she isnt crying but it is the same thing.

She's always standing up already clutching her teddy (which is actually a wolf rather unimaginatively called wolfy). If I lie her down that's when she starts screaming and is standing up within seconds but more upset than before I went in.

So you do think my intervening will in the end cause a problem?

It could do but then again it does break your heart when they scream. If she is fine in the day and has calpol at bedtime then I would do the CC and keep going in and lying her down again. If you get her up then that will disturb her and she will think she can play etc. Be strong and it will work. Only took 2 nights with ds. HTH

Ok, thanks, think I'll try the harder option tonight then. I've got nothing to lose!

My DS had awful problems with his molars and I had to use calpol and nurofen to get him to go to sleep at all! That worked though I think and if he woke in the night he would get another dose of Calpol (if it had been 4 hours since previous dose of course!). However, without fail after DS is ill/teething and he is better he will continue to wake up for attention and it takes about 2 nights of CC to get him to resettle and/or not wake up. So I always give him the benefit of the doubt when ill but turn into ruthless Mummy when he is better!

I guess that's what I've been doing. But as these molars are taking ages to finally come through this has been going on for almost 2 weeks now on and off. I think one of the bottom ones is nearly through and the top 2 are half through. She's never had the slightest trouble with any of ther other teeth.

Well this sounds all too familiar to me!!

My dd is 22 months and about 2/3 months back had a bad cold/teething. I blindly slipped into a habit of going in, being nice and just answering her calls (but not picking her up, or taking her out of the cot) This carried on for a few weeks until I realised she had me trapped into waking up 3-4 times a night. Doing the same calling, "mummy, mummy" in a cute voice. It was driving me mad the lack of sleep and I decided I HAD to put an end to it!!

It confused me a first as I racked my brain for reasons as to why she was suddenly waking up so often. Was it coldness/growbag problems/needed a duvet/nightmares/pain. Then I suddenly figured out that she had gotten clever and thought I was on tap 24/7. She is a very sweet kind little girl, so I didn't see that in her.

Unfortunately the CC wouldn't have worken for me as all she wanted was to see me and then she went back to sleep. So I had to be tough and let her cry it out. I wouldn't reccommend anyone doing this under the age she is, but it was the only answer for me, get tough and set the boundaries.

The first night I ignored her, and she even decided to call out "daddy" to see if there was a response, she lost her temper and had a good scream. Then after an hour I went in silently, picked up all the toys off the floor, put them in the cot, layed her down and went out, I had to repeat this once again after about 30 mins. Then she decided to give up.

The next night she only screamed for 1/2 hour when she woke up and then gave up.

And after that she slept through!! Apart from a slight cold recently she hasn't stirred hardly at all, and if she has it's been a murmer and back to sleep. Now if she has a cold I keep contact minimal and silent at night now. I'm not getting back into that scenario again.

This was the first time I've ever had to do anything this brutal with her since she was born as shes always been a good sleeper, and it was horrid going through it!! But it worked for us, I can't say it will for you. But a couple of nights of hell is worth it in the long run. She is even much happier in the day now, as the disturbed sleep at night was making her grumpy and sleep too long in the daytime.

Sorry Ive waffled on!!

Thanks such a lot for this long reply. My dd's not that much younger than yours in the scheme of things and maybe there is a bit of mommy-manipulating or even just testing going on. It has coincided with her being a bit more clingy in general.

So how did you bear your dd screaming for an hour solid in the middle of the night? I'm not sure I could cope with it. But maybe I'll have to. Like yours, my dd's been a really good sleeper most of her life so far. What worries me is leaving her alone in the dark if she really IS in pain.

My dd was being a bit more clingy in general due to the lack of sleep she was getting at night. This has stopped since I set the boundaries, but not in a bad way. She is more relaxed and not clinging to my leg because I think she feels more secure in me putting my foot down, if that makes sense. (even though it was a hard way to go about it)

The screaming was awful, but I knew it was the only choice. A friend had told me it had worked for her. So I had to try it. I was laying there thinking, what am I doing to my dd????? But it was the best thing for me to do.

I was thinking like you before I did this CIO thing, maybe she's in pain, maybe it's the dark. But I think I was making excuses for her. If they really were in pain they would be off their food and have all the other symptoms. I know teething is hard for them, but they all have to go through it. All of my dds teething hasn't been too bad, but her canines proved to be painful and difficult.

Good luck and let me know what you decide to do.

Well, weirdly, last night I didn't have to do anything! She went to bed at 7.30, out like a light and didn't stir again til 6.45 this morning. She was exhausted from the night before and she had a 3 hour nap yesterday afternoon. It's been a bit on and off this last couple of weeks, one night she'll wake up calling for me, another she won't. Did that happen with your dd or was she consistently one way or another?

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences by the way.

AGH!! Just heard from dp who's looking after dd today and she's been screaming in the cot and refusing to sleep for almost an hour. I'm trying to persuade him to stick with CC but he's finding it hard.

I'm joining this thread as I am having issues my ds. I haven't been on mumsnet in ages due to internet and time constraints but am back on line and having a crisis at the moment.

I've just had child number 2 (dd) and she is now 6 weeks old. DS is 2 yrs and 2 months old (2 years when she was born. He has been absolutely fantastic with her. He doesn't take too much notice of her which I am happy about but at the same time often does caring things for her like giving her his blanket (sacred to him) in the morning when I am giving her a feed, getting her teddy for her etc. I have no qualms in leaving them in the same room when I am not there as he really does care for her.

I have just moved him from his cot to his bed (after ds was born). He used to have bottles in the night but we stopped this a couple of months before ds was born so he was sleeping through the night.

He has regressed, which they say they do, and is back to hitting all of his friends and telling them off all the time. I had broken him of this habit just before Christmas. What he's just started doing is waking up earlier and earlier each night and crying. He will call out for me but when I go in he wants me but doesn't want me. I've even resorted to offering him his bottle back again as I know I can break this habit again but he refuses it. He doesn't actually always wake up when she wakes up for a feed (she's on the bottle not breast fed)but tends to wake up either just after I have put her back to bed or just before she is due to wake up.

I don't know if he is getting his last set of molars. Do they get two lots of molars?, as he already has one set which is one on each side top and bottom.

Basically I'm completely confused and now very tired as I'm only getting around 3-5 hours of sleep each night. Do kids get another set of molars?. Is he waking up because he knows I'm feeding her and feels like he's not getting enough attention? Should I be hopping into his bed with him as this isn't helping either of us? Should I just come down tough on him and ignore it? How do I do that when he just climbs out of his bed? Is it just regression and will he grow out of it? How do I shower enough attention on him when he is at the child minders all day and we only have a few hours together each evening? What do I do to get more sleep. DD by the way is a great sleeper and is only waking up twice in the evening so if it wasn't for ds I would be feeling very rested and relaxed. One last question, how do I not take out my grumpiness on the kids and the hubby? I find I lash out and then regret it instantly afterwards.

Hi Meanmum - good to see you back, I'd been wondering where you 'd got to (though afraid your advice on the flexible working thing last year didn't get me anywhere ). Not sure what to say about your problems, except to say that things which helped us with the getting out of bed problem were to put a stairgate on the bedroom door, and to accept that partial co-sleeping (starting off in his own bed, and then eventually bringing him in with us) ended up allowing all of us more sleep.

Thanks GillW. Shame about the flexible working not working out. I'm about to ask for it myself and expect to be refused. Until we have a few cases go through the courts I expect it will be quite easy for employers to say no.

Anyway back to ds - I've found even getting into bed with him is an issue as he remains incredibly restless. Can't stop fidgeting and is awake one minute and asleep the next. Doesn't sleep for longer than 10 minute period before waking up. When bringing him into our bed (and kicking dh so there is more room) this doesn't work either and it always did in the past. Is it just a phase and if so how long does it take for them to grow out of the phase. I feel quite sorry for our neighbours who must have heard me yelling continuously the other night. Normally when I pretend to be really angry it works with ds but it didn't the other night and I had already tried the whole caring mother thing which didn't work either. Normally he is good at not getting out of bed and getting him to go to sleep is easy with no issues of climbing out of bed.

I'm going to read him his bed time stories over the next few nights and spend some time with him alone on the weekend (weeding the garden but he loves it) and will see how I go. I don't want to drug him unecessarily but the thought keeps going through my mind just so we can all have some peace and quiet. I can hear the gasps of disgust now so sorry to any of those who I offend.

How long do these phases last (roughly)?

meanmum - re the "drugging" (such an emotive word, eh) - I think if you do a search you'll find a post quite recently from susanmt, whose dh is a GP, about giving Medised on a flight to keep theirs calm/sleeping. If it's only occasional/short term, and to break the cycle (the other behavioural things could well be because he's not getting enough sleep or is not feeling great if it is teeth) then it will not do any harm. After all, as you've speculated it could still be more teeth - so treating him for that - in case it is - wouldn't be such a bad thing really. If it makes no difference then at least you've eliminated that possibility.

Evita - I had a couple of nights she slept through, just to confuse me, which is why I didn't see the pattern happening. It was only as it was dragging on that I suddenly realised I was being taken for a ride. Hope this gets better. I know what you're going through!! Keep me posted!!

Meanmum - they get 2 sets of back molars (8 in total) the second set some through between 2 - 2.5 years old. Sorry I can't be of any more help as I only have 1 child and not enough experience of 2 children, but I'm sure it's a phase and he will grow out of it. It must be hard for him to have some more of your attention taken away. Make sure the time you do spend with him is quality time and give him lots of positive encouragement when he is being good, and ignore the bad behaviour.

samwifewithkid, did you really feel you were being 'taken for a ride'? I mean I wonder if I should feel more like that. I feel v. soft about it so far, like she really needs me. But maybe I should remember there might be some manipulation going on there too?

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Evita you'll figure out when you are being taken for a ride. Sometimes you aren't so don't just assume they are manipulating you but at the same time they can be cunning little things. I find I reach a point of no return which is generally when I look at things rationally and realise it's been going on for so long that it was part manipulation and part bad habit that I helped create by fostering it. I then put my foot down (hence the name meanmum) and that cracks it pretty much.