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Sleep

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Original poster

18wk old can't be sleep trained! is this normal?? help!

64 replies

Pummy · 19/08/2006 13:48

we have now been trying to get our 18 wk old daughter to fall alseep on her own in her cot for the last 5 weeks and we seem to be getting nowhere. with advice from our health vistor we have been trying to 'sleep train' her by putting her in her cot for naps and bedtime and leaving her to cry and settle herself. we have been going into her and comforting her throughout at 5, 10 and 15 minute intervals. after about 3 weeks of this and her crying on and off for up to an hour we thought we had cracked it when she went to sleep, sucking her thumb without any trouble for about three days. But since then she has been worse than ever and gone back to crying the way she did when we first started. now into our 5/6 wk we are beside ourselves. she will now cry for up an hour and a half at naptimes and bedtime. At naptime I have often brought her down without her having had any of her nap. also she is now not settling after her night feeds either. last night we tried to settle her for nearly two hours and finally gave up and put her in bed with us. we feel stuck - if we stop now are we going to undo our 'sleep training' efforts? Or by carrying on are we damaging her psychologically? help!! is it normal for a baby to take this long to learn how to fall asleep herself?

OP posts:

SecurMummy · 19/08/2006 13:51

IMPO I think this is far too young for sleep training, therefore I can't really help you. I would suggest though that if ti is starting to affect her whenever she is in the cot (night times etc) then you should look into a different approach as I would personally take this to mean that she is now associating her cot with crying IYSWIM.

trinityrhino · 19/08/2006 13:54

I think this is far too young to sleep train, also how do you know she isn't in pain from teething or tummy pains, far too young, give up and go with the flow is what I would do
I'm sure there will be othere people along soon to help you with more ideas

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 13:55

AGree she is too young for sleep training imo. Not worth even attempting before 6 months.

Do whatever works to get her to sleep and dont feel guilty or think you are setting up bad habits. Its not worth the stress, honestly.

I chose the path of least resistance with DS (who was dreadful at going off to sleep - unlike my DD who just seemed to go off to sleep on her own adn sleep for hours on end from 11 weeks). If that meant cuddling or feeding him to sleep - then I did that in the end. I was getting so uptight and stressed about it.

Ignore comments from other parents about how fabulous a sleeper their baby is. For the most part, it tends to be a personality/character thing. They are just "lucky".

hunkermunker · 19/08/2006 13:56

It's MUCH too young!

Stupid bloody HV.

Feed her to sleep, rock her to sleep, pat her to sleep, but don't let her sob for an hour and half.

As for "naptime" - let her sleep when she's tired - not when you think she should sleep.

Jackstini · 19/08/2006 13:58

My dd is 20 weeks and nowhere near ready for sleep training.
Give yourselves a break, stop worrying and just enjoy her

vitomum · 19/08/2006 13:59

maybe the nap times you have just don't suit her. I usec to let ds have his naps on my bed in a little 'nest'. he loved the comfort of it and would fall asleep straight away. i think the main thing at this age is to be finding out 'when' they want to sleep. Once you have the right pattern to the day you can work on 'where' they sleep. IME this just happened naturally. I agree with securmummy that she is too young for 'training'. The most important thing is that she sleeps and is content. There is plenty time for her to 'learn' about falling asleep herself alone in her cot.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 14:00

Ahem...sorry to be contrary, but, some babies dont know when they are tired or just plain fight it....not mentioning any DS names........

He needed gentle persuading

Angeliz · 19/08/2006 14:04

Agree with oters.
FAR FAR too young.
Stupid bloody useless Health Visitor

She just needs cuddles and love at the moment. She is far far too young to be 'trained' to do anything. You cannot spoil her now, just chill out and she will too. Please don't leave her to cry that long and tell your H.V she is full of crap!

Enid · 19/08/2006 14:10

my dd3 is 16 weeks and the idea of letting her cry for an hour and a half makes me feel physically sick. Sorry, I know you are trying to do the best for your dd but IMO trying to 'sleep train' her at this age is going to effect her (negatively) much more than letting her go to sleep on you ever will.

Enid · 19/08/2006 14:12

yes what the heck is 'naptime'? Just let her sleep when she is tired.

but I DO find getting my dd3 up at 7.30am (I have to usually as other kids are up and bouncing on her) means that she is tired after a couple of hours, she usually dozes in car seat or pram depending on what we are doing - then she is awake for roughly another two hours and is then very happy to go down in her cot at lunchtime-ish

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 14:19

Enid, i think that its a phrase used in some parenting guru's books. Can't remember which ones......

footprint · 19/08/2006 14:27

If your dd is now 18 weeks old, that means you began letting her cry when she was 12 weeks old. I think that is FAR too young, and she is crying because she needs her mum and cuddles at this age, not to be left alone and distressed.

colditz · 19/08/2006 14:33

She has been worse than ever because she has become insecure, IMO. Babies of 4 months old are not manipulative, and therefore all you are teaching her is that when she cries, nobody comes. So she doesn't want to let you go in the firsrt place, you are her world and she's not sure that you will come when she needs you.

Cuddles at this age are a physical need. So is being fed in the night, for some babies. Teeth may be coming. I believe it is not a good idea to ignore your baby at this age - whether or not you are hovering outside the door wracked with nerves because of the crying, babies have no sense of object permenance - as far as she knows, you are Gone.

Don't listen to HV's, they are all friggin loopers. My HV wanted to talk to me about weaning 4 weeks ago - ds2 is only 17 weeks old now.

geissi · 19/08/2006 14:42

dd 5 years old only just started going through the night
but this is dp fault he used to get her up at night and put her in our bed cause he was working all day and missed her
fair enough
what a pain in the backside though
she still gets up occationally now and comes in our bed
she still dont go asleep on her own someone has to be in the room with her

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 14:44

geissi - wtf? Why on earth, sorry, just cant fathom it.......no offence.

morningpaper · 19/08/2006 14:45

Children can take YEARS to learn to fall asleep by themselves - it isn't natural for a tiny baby to do this. Please stop 'sleep training' and just keep your baby with you, cuddle her and feed her - at the moment the only thing she needs to learn is that mummy and daddy are there to comfort here and give her love whenever she needs it.

Enid · 19/08/2006 14:47

yes agree I would imagine she is utterly insecure now. Sorry pummy I know this is not what you want to hear

Original poster

Pummy · 19/08/2006 14:52

Thanks for your responses - I think VeniVidiVickiQV's comment is closest to our experience.

Maybe 'sleep training' was the wrong phrase to choose - rather we're simply putting her down in her cot when she gets tired and grouchy; whether that's in the evening or during the day. There's not a 'set' time, although she often tires out in the evenings at about the same time. it's always a loving and peaceful time. But once she's in her cot/moses basket/rocker/car seat (we've tried them all) she starts to cry. She seems to hate going to sleep. she cries even if you're in the room with her comforting her. we don't abandon her and leave her alone for long periods - not at all. and every few minutes we go and soothe her.

the health visitor's advice was that it was a good idea not to get into the habit of letting her fall asleep on us, or sucking on our finger. and to be honest it's really uncomfortable trying to support a sleeping baby after a few hours. also we found that our daughter slept much more patchily like that. we don't have a regime at all. the main aim is just to let her sleep in a safe, comforting place ie the cot or basket, or wherever she is safe and happy.

OP posts:

colditz · 19/08/2006 14:53

Use a dummy if she wants to suck. She really does sound like she craves comfort.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 14:58

Enjoy the cuddles and comforting/comfort sucking - it will only last a matter of months. A year down the line you will look back and wonder how quickly it all passed, and long for the cuddles (which toddlers tend to do less of because they are busy doing, well, everything!)

It might be an idea to go for a long walk or drive when she is starting to look tired to help her go off to sleep. That way, at least you are feeling likeyou are doing something.

morningpaper · 19/08/2006 15:01

Your expectations of what she is capable of understanding and learning are too high.

My 10 month old still sleeps on my chest sometimes. Sure it's a pain in the arse but babies are like that, and who knows why they need more cuddles some days than others? Being a baby is probably extremely painful (all those teeth and growing!) and stressful (new scary stuff every day!).

Pummy, just about ALL parents spend hours every day rocking/carrying/cuddling their babies to sleep. Certainly for the first few months. This is totally normal. Babies and young children have no concept of 'falling asleep' and what that process entails. Some babies DO naturally fall asleep and seem very calm and peaceful - but these are pretty rare. Although their parents will talk the most about it.

If you have been leaving her for 5 weeks to cry for nearly two hours several times a day, you are not creating a 'loving and peaceful time' for her, whether you keep popping in or not. Babies don't understand that you are STILL THERE when they can't see you. They are just alone and have a desperate need to BE WITH someone.

Your baby sounds totally normal in her needs at this stage. I would try to minimise the amount of time she spends crying every day - whether that means you carry her, cuddle her, or rock her etc.

hunkermunker · 19/08/2006 15:04

DS2 will just fall asleep if we're out and about (VVVQV will vouch for this!) but he's not good at sleeping long periods at night (or during the day, unless he's showing off for MNers ). So I go out with him a fair bit because if I stay at home, he won't just "go to sleep" and I can't spend hours patting him because I have a toddler to look after too.

footprint · 19/08/2006 15:17

I used to love having my daughter fall asleep on me! What a great excuse to watch TV, read a book etc. It is not a phase that lasts long.

I also had a sling that my dd loved to sleep in - and that way i got things done too.

Babies only cry because they are trying to communicate something to you. Your dd is trying to tell you that she feels safe and happy with YOU.

My mum also tried to tell me not to let my dd "get into the habit" of sleeping on me, but I ignored her and my dd didn't do it forever.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 19/08/2006 15:32

Hunkers DS2 is georgeous, and sleeps fine. (I think Hunker just keeps waking him up for cuddles at night coz he's so lovely.....)

From another perspective, ie mine , my DS used to just cry when he was tired. Didnt matter what i did either. Going for walks, driving, rocking, patting and up until 15 weeks feeding didnt really make him fall asleep either. In fact, he used to fuss and fight feeding in the evenings.

From birth until about 15-16 weeks he would just cry from about 6-7pm to 11pm whether he was being cuddled, b/fed, rocked, patted, left, whatever. There was nothign wrong with him as such - GP and HV no use, and we tried all the colic remedies. I used to lay in teh room with him for hours because i couldnt leave him, (which is strongly recommended here and there......) but there was nothing that would stop him crying because he was so so tired, but just couldnt sleep. Now THAT is very very wearing. Its the reason i found MN in the first place. I was at the end of my tether with it all.

I think my point here is that, its not always about getting into a routine, or not "allowing" comfort. Sometimes, babies just really really cannot get themselves off to sleep no matter what. So, can we move away from comments about what harm is being done, and how bad not to comfort etc. I think Pummy has got it now.

britty · 19/08/2006 18:08

Hi
I wouldnt be surprised if pummy has been scared off the site altogether.
I feel I have to remind people that comments are supposed to be helpful and supportive- and reading objectively through the last 10 comments I certainly wasnt feeling any of that.
Reading your initial Q pummy I realised what you meant because my baby was the same.Even if I cuddled him, let him lie on me/ daddy,was rocked, pushed about, driven around, he would always end up crying worse than when we started, he was hardly sleepnig at all.
we have introduced a rough routine, based around when baby appears to be tired, as pummy is suggesting.
this has improved his sleep completely, he never crying inconsolably any more and he is much happier.
Also the HV was asked for her advice and she gave it, as with all advice it works for some and not for others.
Yes, our experience makes us experts , but on our babies, and they're not all the same.
finally- if you ask my mum and grandma and women of their generation, babies were left to cry and they didnt end up 'damaged' or 'insecure'.I am not saying whether i support this view, but it is a valid view.Leaving a baby to cry for short periods is not illegal and will not damage them as long as their basic needs are being met.

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