18wk old can't be sleep trained! is this normal?? help!

[Pummy]

we have now been trying to get our 18 wk old daughter to fall alseep on her own in her cot for the last 5 weeks and we seem to be getting nowhere. with advice from our health vistor we have been trying to 'sleep train' her by putting her in her cot for naps and bedtime and leaving her to cry and settle herself. we have been going into her and comforting her throughout at 5, 10 and 15 minute intervals. after about 3 weeks of this and her crying on and off for up to an hour we thought we had cracked it when she went to sleep, sucking her thumb without any trouble for about three days. But since then she has been worse than ever and gone back to crying the way she did when we first started. now into our 5/6 wk we are beside ourselves. she will now cry for up an hour and a half at naptimes and bedtime. At naptime I have often brought her down without her having had any of her nap. also she is now not settling after her night feeds either. last night we tried to settle her for nearly two hours and finally gave up and put her in bed with us. we feel stuck - if we stop now are we going to undo our 'sleep training' efforts? Or by carrying on are we damaging her psychologically? help!! is it normal for a baby to take this long to learn how to fall asleep herself?

I was left to cry, and actually I am both damaged and insecure. Everyone asks the mothers who did it whether it caused damage, and they are bound to say no, if not out of guilt then because most mothers think their child is perfect. Nobody ever asks the children it was done to.

The critisism towards the OP is the seeming preoccupation with tiny babies sleeping alone.

NEWSFLASH _ MOST WON'T AND ARE UNHAPPY IF YOU MAKE THEM.

britty, actually my mum never left me to cry, infact, she co-slept.

Pummy, I would say that although alot of babies are sleeping well at this stage it is more to do with luck. You can start introducing routines that give your baby cues that it's time to wind down, such as feeding always in a quiet, darkened room at the same time of day. These things won't produce miracles but in my experience they make a real difference. Leaving your baby to cry for hours is not a good thing.
I was wondering whether you had ever heard of baby hammocks. They are absolutely fantastic a helping babes to settle not only when they first sleep, but when they stir during the night. They are so soft,safe and comfy. My DD3 loves hers. She's large, and although she fills it up she won't sleeep anywhere else.
try this

Britty considering how strongly people feel about this issue I think that the posts have been remarkably supportive and helpful and I'm a bit that you are criticising them. What exactly do you think is so unconstructive?

Colditz, i think we got it. And FWIW I agree....but......

I think you have to accept that there is a general parental pre-occupation with babies and sleep, and unfortunately its very common for people to be given the impression that babies can sleep through if only you do x y an z.

Gosh, how many of us heard the question "Is he/she sleeping through yet?" within weeks of giving birth?

OP asked for advice, OP has been given it - I dont know why you want to vilify her - she seems to have taken on board what has been said. I understand there being a general sensitivity to issues concerning "routines" of late, but lets take it out on the right person, ie the "experts" that perpetuate these theories, and not the poor poster who has come here for advice.

Please?

I think we need to change the disclaimer at the bottom of the page to:

"It is with great regret that we have to ask members to refrain from any further discussion of ANY ASPECT OF CHILDREARING on the site. To find out why click here . We'd be very grateful if members could report any mentions of BABIES or CHILDREN using the "contact Mumsnet" facility (the little red exclamation mark to the right of each posting). Many thanks. MNHQ."

What do you reckon?

I know. Sorry Pummy.

but when you look at it from 3 years down the line, you realise how tiny 18 weeks old really is.

I didn't mean to get at you Pummy, really I didn't, but 'routine' is a bit of a dirty word round here at the moment - see the bottom of the page.

MP.

get the 'no cry sleep solution' by Elizabeth Pantley if you gently want to teach your child how to teach your child to fall asleep on their own. 4 months is a good starting off point which the book gives great advice in doing. it takes patience on the parent's part as it shows a lot of compassion for the need of a baby.

I think it is not constructive to sit in judgement of people, of course were here to have a discussion about various topics, there are ways of offering your opinion.
And I was left to cry and am in no way damaged or insecure.There are different measures of crying and different types of crying and the image of a tiny baby in a room on its own for hours at a time is not what I am suggesting the older generation did, but nor were people made to feel guilty for leaving their baby to cry for 10 or 15 minutes.It was clear to me what pummy meant and it was not putting a baby in a room and leaving he/she for hours to cry alone.My baby, as many can (and maybe pummy's baby falls into this category) cry for an hour and a half in my presence, I am not the magic bullet that stops my baby crying when he is v.tired and therefore I needed to use something else also to help ease his distress.And guess what -the things I have tried worked.It is not about insisting that baby sleeps between 9 and 10 beacuse you want to watch x on the telly, its about picking up cues and putting them to bed - and for some babies that happens at the roughly the same time.
Lets not get worked up about expert advice- take it or leave it.

PS- I agree with Kittywits re:sling.Also consider something that smells of you in the cot, like a pillow case or nighty.

I thought you were talking about an 18month old! You all sound totally stressed and miserable. Forget the Health Visitor - most of them are just really, really crap and put horrible pressure on mothers. Forget naptime. Go out for a walk instead, enjoy it. Go round the shops or to a cafe. At night, if it helps her sleep, have her in bed with you. Go with the flow. All children are different. Loads of babies don't sleep by themselves. In most of the world (and through most of history), nobody even tries to make them. They sleep on their mother's backs and sleep with them at night. Not saying anyone else has to do that, but it's not odd or strange in the least. I think you need a break from this horrible 'sleep training'. It isn't working and it sounds as if it is making you all sad. This does not mean your baby will never sleep. They change all the time. Good luck.

Your baby simply doesn't have the right neural connections to make the association yet. So please do what works for all of you and ignore HV.

i left sleep training till 18 MONTHS pummy, then still felt terrible about it. i agree with those who've suggested going with the flow and enjoying baby while still so tiny without worrying about routines. my 2 never got the hang of day time naps in a cot , ever! but sleep through the night. i was just never home enough to make daytime naps in the cot 'the norm'. my preferred strategy was: go for walk, they'd fall asleep in pram, quick sprint to nearest coffee shop for a latte and to read a magazine. much more restful!

I think you will find that Pummy did ask the question are we damaging her psychologically? I think that,given the age of the baby concerned the responses have been very supportive - whilst also making the posters opinion clear which (if I am not mistaken) is a perfectly valid thing for a poster to do!

Pummy, it is clear that the general opinion is that your child is young for to be left to fall asleep, however it is true that all children are different and it is the case taht this approach works for some babies - even ones as young as 3 or 4 months. However it would appear that this is not working for your dd. I would suggest that you try the approach you tried with your first daughter (do I have this right?) I think you said that cuddling made for sleep patchily. You may find that that approach is the one that will be ideal her this child!

Whatever you decide good luck with it, I hope that no-one has come across as abrasive - to me reading this it does not seem it - bt I know from experience that as the op/poster being "spoken" to things can often seem harsher.

sorrell, just read your post- mine is bizarrely simlar to yours! sorry, didnt realize till i'd written mine!

Oh, great minds and all that

LOL at morningpaper.
I don't think the OP seemed at all offended. I don't think anyone has actually been offensive. I always try to restrain myself in such replies to being polite in giving my opinion.
I do actually think though ,if i'm being honest, that it is harmful to leave young babies to cry for hours. Obviously Pummy came back and said that's not what she does and i'm not targetting her, but as a differing opinion to those who advocate it, i think it is harmful infact for everybody.
I don't know how many times i read on here about Mams crying and being upset as they listen to their poor babies screaming as they follow the advice of some or other 'so called' expert. I just think they are tiny for SO SO short a time in our lives, why can't we just do as nature intended and cuddle them and chill out.
Also just because our Mams and Nanas did something, doesn't make it right!

britty if you had read the OP properly you wold see that PUmmy has been leaving her daughter to cry for up to an hour and a half not 10 or 15 minutes

I think sorrells post is excellent advice.

Pummy- is it that she hates being on her back (both ds2 and ds3 were like this- they would only sleep lying face down- when little I had them on my tummy/chest, but that's no good with a 16 week old. WOuld scream as soon as they went on their backs. In the case of ds2 I ended up putting him on his side, which I'm not recommending you do, I wasn't all that happy about it myself at the time. With ds3 we got an amby babynest and it was absolutely brilliant. He slept in there until getting on for a year old. If you were thining of having more children in the future I'd recommend trying this- they sell well on ebay if its a disaster.

ooh yes that amby thing looks faboulous

jj recommended it to me for dd3 as she hated being on her back

but I couldnt afford it so put her on her tummy to sleep instead

she sleeps like a dream on her tum and I have stopped being nervous about it now, in fact all three of mine slept on their tummies.

The thought of leaving a baby to cry makes me feel physically sick tbh. Ds2 was brilliant at going to sleep on his own (unlike ds1) until our useless ex p/t nanny "forgot" to put the monitor on three occasions (that I know of) when he was about 4 months old. On 2 of these occasions I came home and could hear him screaming the house down as soon as I walked in. She had shut the sitting room door and couldn't hear a thing (so she says). Both times I ran in to to pick him up and he was red, hoarse and covered in snot and sick. After that ds2 was insecure, hated his cot (which he used to love) and clung on to me for dear life all day long. Even now he's still not good at going to sleep on his own and this all happened about 4 months ago.

Please don't leave a tiny baby to cry. Even if they "only" want a cuddle is that really so bad?

Pummy, just want to say that there are lots of mumsnetters who've had terrible sleepers so you should find some solidarity here. It's so hard when the books (or your HV) make you feel that your baby "should" be able to put themselves to sleep, if only you follow this, that or the other method (most of which are contradictory).

I'm another mum whose dd didn't sleep at all for ages, no matter what we did. She's a toddler now and still has some days (like today) when she gets so overtired that she can't settle.

You must have felt desperate, with all that crying and no real improvement.

Does anything at all work to get her to sleep? I found that my dd would sleep in a sling (but not in a buggy). We also got one of those Amby Hammocks when she was about 3 months old - what a lifesaver.

Apart from that, I found talking to other mums with sleepless babies the only other way to cope. Don't listen to the mums who had perfect angels (or even worse, the ones for whom a simple blackout blind or a bedtime bath or some other incredibly small thing that you're probably already doing made a big difference - grr.)

Hugs from me.

OMG Rickshaw! How the divvil are you????

Haven't spoken to you for about, oh, a year! Where have you been? Thought you had gone to visit Brighton(?)/the South coast for the weekend and stayed there!

Glad to hear your sleeping woes are mostly over