Is there a solution to our sleep problem nightmare? If NO, I can accept that but if YES PLEASE share.

[Tinker]

• Baby is nearly 15 months old

- Still breastfed - Still in our room - Sibling is 8 years older and noisy so not a realistic solution to share a room - Baby wakes up every 2 or 3 hours atm - last night bed at 7, woke at 10 - took until 01:30 before she went back to sleep - Can't attempt any sort of sleep training which involves leaving her to cry (even if we are in the room with her) as have neighbour who shouts through walls.

Anything we can do? Drugs (seriously)? Just feel we cannot go on like this.

Anyone? Thanks

Thanks again everyone.

Partner is brilliant, btw, totally supportive, no complaints about him. But, we both work (him ft, me ft during term-time) so this has to be sorted, I think. I drive a lot for work and really feel as though I'm in a daze doing it sometimes.

I do cling onto the this won't be forever and that we will live in a 3 bed house soonish. Am just worried that if we tackle it in false surroundings ie holiday/"mil"'s house, she'll just revert once back here.

I really sympathise with you. My first child was a fantastic sleeper (which obviously I put down to my superior parenting techniques), followed 2 years later by the little minx who is DD who has really not been easy at all. I seriously blush when I think of the advice I "kindly" offered to all and sundry after I had only experienceed DS.

However, one of my strongest parenting beliefs - and pretty much the only one that has lasted through 2 children - is that we ALL need a good night's sleep. I know that I can't function on continual crappy broken sleep, and I'm pretty sure tht it impacts on the DCs as well. The other thing I think is that - all things considered - if your child is in a happy secure family situation, that a bit of strictness at night to help everyone acheive a good night's sleep is permissible. (This doesn't mean screaming for hours, at all, just a bit of "I mean business").

If it were me, I honestly would stop the feeding -just looking at it from the outside it seems that that is a huge root of things. But I really would consult a sleep expert to give you a tailored solution. I think also it really helps if you have an expert outsider looking in and making suggestions that either you have never thought of or you need a bit of encouragement to take.

I honestly think you should consider your own needs as well: I think you are entitled to expect a more reasonable night's sleep than you are getting and that you should take steps to come to an accomodation that you all can live with. (My view would be that your DD might want to be fed continuously during the night in much the same way that I might want Robbie Williams to sing me a lullaby each night, but it is not strictly necessary for either of us...)

My experience when we have bitten the bullet and implemented a new regime is that we have had a couple of crappy nights but that really it has taken a lot less time and been a lot less awful than we expected it to be.

If this is stricter than you want to be, then apologies. However for us the start of it getting better was us thinking that actually we all deserved some sleep, rather than thinking what mad new rigmarole we could go through with DD to make it better for her.

Tinker (takes deep breath) I think you're making excuses. Can you really wait until you move house?
If you can then fair enough.
Anchovy - you're a woman after my own heart. Agree completely.

Ah jabberwocky fair comment. I didn't find that myself, I always think he is quite gentle and non-prescriptive but that is easy to say when you are already following what is being advised

Tinker I think as you work, and are feeling you can't cope, you need to sort it out. The No Cry Sleep Solution takes a little while, I would get a copy asap and see if you can crack it this summer.

Anchovy I agree with what you say to some extent but I feel uncomfortable about the "We all deserve some sleep" bit. I don't think babies and young children are designed to sleep through the night, and I think we set ourselves up for a lot of grief and hassle in the West for expecting that they will, and that we as parents have the right to an unbroken night's sleep. I think in other cultures Tinker's situation would be seen as 'normal', not as a 'problem', and that it is our expectations, and the pressures on us as parents in this society, that causes the problem.

Good luck Tinker

I have to say (especially in all fairness to F&Z) that the No-Cry Sleep Solution is one of my favorite parenting books. I recommend it all the time. Elizabeth Pantley's advice is of the gentle parenting format, but takes into account the whole family, instead of revolving around one little person.

With Anchovy on this too. I resorted to sleep training with both of mine in the end because I was constantly in danger of crashing the car due to chronic lack of sleep. I figured a bit of crying for a few nights was better than all of us being dead or in hospital.
Why don't you go & see your neighbour & say that you will be sleep training your baby/toddler and there may be a bit of crying for a few nights.
You know deep down that a 15 month old doesn't need feeding through the night. It will be tough, but so worth it. Good luck.

Will bear your comments in mind next time I reread Dr Sears, jabberwocky. I recommend him all the time, and never previously thought of him as putting the guilts on - to the extent that a very non-Attachment Parenting friend of mine found him a great read, and she is a bottle feeding, cot-using, early weaning type of mum. I assumed she would have flung it back in my face had she felt 'got at'. Maybe she is just quite thick skinned

Message withdrawn

F&Z, before I had ds, I read 3 of Dr. Sears books and was completely gung-ho on his advice. However, it does not jive very well with PND or PN PTSD as I had. In that situation you are just trying to survive from one hour to the next and being told to attend to every whim of a very fussy baby can make one, at least this mother, literally suicidal. I happily binned all of them once I got well enough . And we did have a co-sleeper bed, did the baby-wearing stuff, etc. so it's not that I feel I'm a "non-attachment" parent, but I do hate those labels now. He is definitely for crunchy moms, but not for the main stream imo.

"crunchy moms" LOL

what is that? Like a lentil weaver type thing? I've never heard that one.

I can't imagine any "guru" is going to work well with PND or PN PTSD, are they? Let's face it, even the best ones have a way of making you feel slightly incompetent - otherwise why would you be looking for their advice? Dr Sears was a life saver for me because my instincts were telling me to do all this co-sleeping and carrying, but all the books, and all my friends with babies at the time, were all telling me it was Wrong and I would Make A Rod For My Own Back.

They were right about the latter, at least, but it was really quite a lovely rod, a lot of the time

I agree completely jabberwocky. I had bad PND and felt all that Sears advice pushed me to the edge as I felt it was completely unatainable and made me feel I was a useless parent

To be honest all the parenting books I read (and I read many including she who shall not be named) made me feel this way, but Sears was particulalry difficult for me, naybe because I agreed with a lot of what he says but just was unable to practice it in the way I thought I should.

I find his health advice invaluable but still find it difficult to read the other stuff without feeling a failure (I too used slings a lot, had an open side cot by my bed for and also took ds into bed for a while)

In the end we did put ds in his room early (way before 6 months old) as I could not sleep at all otherwise (not that I slept much anyway) and I was getting hysterical.

Later he came back into my bed for a while as I was just desperate for him and me to sleep a bit but it didn't work. Then he went back to his own room, now he does a bit of both.

In reply to the OP - DS's sleeping (and mine) was better in his own room but it certainly didn't solve the problem completely. tbh some crying is going to have to happen if you want to night wean your baby, which to my mind is the only way you will get any quality sleep.

Sad to hear about people's experiences. I can see that if you are struggling with the basics any guru type book is probably going to exacerbate it, maybe Dr Sears would be particularly bad, I can see what you are saying

However your comment about night weaning made me remember this great link for Tinker to read:

Changing the Sleep Pattern in the Family Bed - an easy and gentle method of night weaning that might be helpful

oops, guess I slipped in an American expression there. Crunchy = granola mom. It's used quite a bit over here, not meant to be derogatory or anything

lazycow, while I am that you had the same problems I did, it does make me feel a bit better that it wasn't just me. Elizabeth Pantley has a great overall parenting book in addition to her Sleep Solution book that I liked a lot.

Sorry for the slight highjack, Tinker! Guess all of us sleep-deprived mums have a lot to say on the subject You are right to be concerned about driving, etc. though. There have been studies showing that driving while sleep-deprived is just as dangerous as being intoxicated. Not to mention the toll it takes on your life, family, work and relationship.

Thanks all.

Instinctively, I'm with F&Z - I agree, we set ourselves up for disappointment by expecting them to sleep through the night. But our (my?) life/culture means we (my family)are all struggling.

Yes, I admit, I am making excuse but am wary of starting some sort of technique which I can't see through. Hmm.

My first was also a dream sleeper which, of course, I also put down to my fabness

Re: the feeding at night, think she's not actually feeding tbh, (well, not much) just suckling. Have tried introducing a dummy even but no go. This baby has also never taken a bottle.

Pondering

Yes, it's all very well to say "Well in xyz tribe they co-sleep until age 7 and carry their children on their backs" - you've got to go to work! If it's really not working - change it. I distinctly remember even Dr Sears says that! But if you feel like you might just need to let it go a bit longer and see if maybe something improves, then wing it a bit. There's merit in both, IMO.

I didn't use any books with sorting out ds's sleep.The sleep consultant I used talked to me about our lifestyle, how I wanted to look after ds, what was important to me. I feel we came to a tailor made plan that suited us all. I had nothing written down, I was supported to try something and then talk about how that was going until it worked or not and then move on to the next thing. I never felt a failure.
With dd however I had read all sorts of stuff which made me feel awful, really awful. Hence the sleep lady (who was recommended by the kindest women I knew)

The sleep consultant thing sound very good.

Tinker, really empathise. I think the main issue is the neighbour. I think whatever method you use will involve some crying (hopeful not with sleep expert).

My DS was an atrocious sleeper (terrible itching from eczema). He was prescribed a sedative but it had no effect on him. It one of the antihistamines that they use but I can't remember which one. In some kids it makes them worse. He was 3.5 before he slept through the night so I was determined with DD to tackle it differently plus there was no eczema.

Reluctantly I did some sleep training but it was quite ok cos she we were in the same room as her so she didn't feel that alone I think. My dilemma now is that I too am still Bfing and she wakes at about 5ish for her morning feed which is useful when I am at work but a pain the other days.

So much can disrupt their sleep too that no sleep training can cope with. Hopefully the sleep expert will have something useful to deal with cranky neighbours.

On a different note I used to get through my sleep deprived days with Red Bull and Jelly babies. I was so bad at one point I had double vision which the DOc said was stress. You would be stressed too if you had F* All sleep I told him.

Sounds horrendous, tinks. Sorry it's so hard.
Do you have a sofa bed or an airbed? If so, could you move into the living room for a while and either do the no cry sleep thing (don't know what that entails) or write note to neighbour and do controlled crying? Maybe if partner took her away for a couple of nights so that you could get some good sleep and break the night feeding habit, you'd feel strong enough to follow it with a week or so of some kind of sleep training with you guys out of the bedroom? Sorry if this is a pants idea- I'm kind of out of the baby loop atm but I hope that you find a way to tackle it or things just get easier a la Franny's experience.

Agree with anchovy, ds1 was a darling little sleeper, so thought I had it sussed then got ds2

Agree with scummy as well about a temp air bed, so you can allow some screaming without having to worry abut the neighbour. For ds2 the key was stopping the night feeding. But that did lead to screaming- quite bad screaming- but for 2 nights max. Then he would sleep and still wake up, but wasn't looking for breast so just went back to sleep.

Both ds2 and ds3 were fed to sleep, until I decided it was getting a problem. Again I went cold turkey and in both cases they did 2 or 3 nights of crying, then settled (and ds3 is very strong willed- I was surprised at him).

Recently ds3 started waking again and crying at night (he's 19 months), and screaming at bed time- he was fighting the dropping off to sleep with a feed thing- so it was then that we went cold turkey. We moved him in with ds2 (from his own room though), and told him to go to sleep "like ds2". He worships ds2 and did!

Both ds2 and ds3 are very good sleepers now. It makes a big difference.

Jimjams - interesting that your experience has been quite like mine. A lot of the time it was the "fear" of how much more awful it was going to be that stopped us doing something. In fact, when we actually decided to do it, it was a couple of nights of crap but nothing much more than that (and nothing that we couldn't deal with).

Part of the advantage about a sleep consultant, I think, is that they give you "permission" to try things that you don't quite have the nerve to do yourself. I honestly think that if you are working (I was), you really owe it to yourself to get it sorted. I know not everyone agrees but I do think that healthy 15-18 month babies can sleep through the night without nutrition or the need for "bonding", if that's what you want. It was what I wanted!

I honestly think that none of this has harmed DD in anyway whatsoever - what was "harming" her more was not getting a decent night's sleep.

Thanks folks.

Agree, it is teh neighbour who for us (in our minds anyway) is the problem, feel completely compromised, feel he dictates what we do, which is mad.

Will think about airbed and travel cot in living room but not sure of logistics really

Last night did a half-attempt at something. Bed at 7.30. Dinner on teh table at 8.15 ish - crying started. Went up, thought I'd feed her quickly and be down in 5 minutes to eat - fed her, in cot, walked out, she woke up, put her down again, waited, walked out, she got up cring again, put her down, said "Good night" and walked outr nad left her to cry. Ate my dinner, left it for 5 mins, partner went up for a minute, said "Good night" she cried...and stopped after about 5 minutes . Slept until about 01.00. Then back to our bad and usual pattern but will so the not feeding to sleep in evening at least for now. Also, when she was in bed, she wasn't constantly rooting, would feed and I could stop her and turn over.

oh Tinker, is this nob still ruling how you live?

Honestly, I would ignore him and take him COMPLETELY out of the equation. Pretend he does not exist and deal with the situation as you see fit.

As others have posted, dd1 was a dream sleeper and I was Ms Smug, swanning about giving advice like I knew anything.

dd2 was, and can still be, a nightmare. She is still in our bed 3-4 times a week (not breastfed however, but wriggles for England) so sleep can be patchy.

I tried being stict but it felt so wrong leaving her to cry and she would be SOBBING so now we try and settle and if not, she is on the sofa of an evening or in our bed. Then she will sleep through for 3 nights and make us think we have cracked it....then be a pita for the following 3.

Again, IGNORE your neighbour, and sort the situation as you see fit.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks OO

We were talking about last night realising we must think about him far more than he ever thinks about us. Difficult though, house up for sale and don't want to escalate any situation. At the moment, we've had no dispute, we just don't like him.

Tonight will attempt to not feed her to sleep...

How's your house move going?

Well done missus, that sounds like progress. The rule is now you know she can do it no going backwards