My Dd (7) doesn't know 'how' to go to sleep!! (she says...)

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Obviously she has been going to sleep everyday for 7 years, but she gets herself in to such a state at bedtimes because she says she doesn't know what to 'do' to get to sleep. We've always had lots of trouble at bedtimes even as a baby and she is fantastic at every delaying tactic going, plus some!
We have a good regular routine every night, including a decent story time and cuddles. But then at the point of saying goodnight she starts fretting. For a few months she was telling me that she had bad tummy ache at bedtime, leading to all sorts of health worries on my part, but finally amid lots of sobs one night she admitted she was making it up because she didn't want me to go downstairs and leave her. I praised her for being brave enough to tell me, but it still leaves us with a problem that she'll make up anything to get me to stay. Over the years we've tried all of the following: staying quietly near her until she was asleep, regular checks to reassure her, story cd's, night lights, leaving her to cry-it-out (I hated that one), relaxation exercises and a relaxing cd, foot massages, music, etc.
She says that she's 'bored' at bedtime, that she has nothing to do, that she doesn't know how to get to sleep, etc, and mainly that she doesn't want me to go downstairs. She cries a lot, and makes up small ailments to get attention and sympathy. I've tried a kind but firm 'goodnight' and left her, but she cries and wails until Dh or I go up. We have an almost 4 yr old ds too, and her noise keeps him awake as well.
It's driving me a bit mad, and makes the evening very fraught. I always end up frustrated and cross, then feel bad about being cross.

Any advice, ideas or empathy please! Morale is at an all time low here.

I read something similar recently, and the mum decided to make bedtime earlier, (her DH disagreed) but it did work perfectly.

It turned out that their DD was overtired & staying awake.

Sorry I'm not much help, I have a baby that doesn't like sleeping at all, to the point that I'm in tears some days/nights & I can imagine how you feel x

Thanks Lamadrama. I feel pretty alone with this problem because many babies and toddlers have difficulty sleeping, but not once they are 7! She certainly does need her sleep...I'm willing to try an earlier bedtime although it's fairly early already for her age.

try counting sheep, basically it's just a way to allow the brain to slowly switch off or if she needs something else, how-about beads on a short piece of elastic tied to her bed.

Headless, I have suggested the counting thing, she wasn't keen - but if I explain to her why it might work that would help. Funnily enough a 'fiddle toy' of some kind was something I came up with this evening, because she also picks spots at bedtime, then cries because she wishes she hadn't done it. She had a scab on her face which she picked daily for 3 months (mostly but not exclusively at bedtime), then finally it got better, and now she has made a new one on the bridge of her nose. I despair, the last one left a scar that hasn't faded yet.

get her to count something which she has an interest in - pink bows, pigs, stars etc, doesn't really matter what but it's the process involved in winding the brain down. DN at one time had a book of word searches which worked with him.

Fiddle toys are good to keep the fingers busy and often have a calming effect because of the repetition involved.

I also think a trip to the GP and possible referral to a sleep clinic might also help.

I went through a period as a child where I 'didn't know' how to go to sleep, and for me the anxiety was very real!
I think it may be a transition leriod between the childlike collapsing asleep anywhere, and the older windjng down and slowly falling asleep. i didn't realise that closing your eyes helps you get to sleep (duh!) and would lie there, eyes open, wondering why I wasn't asleep yet. I would also feel sick and panicky about it!

My mum would encourage me to do relaxation excersises, which I see you've already tried. Personally I found them a bit frustrating. The technique I adopted, which I still do, is close my eyes and imagine things - as a child it would be about starring in the school play, now I furnish my dream house! But I really have to decide 'right, I am going to imagine XXX' and then throw myself into imagining it in in a very real way, playing out conversations, filling in details etc. then I drift off without realising!

Don't know if any of that helps, but I feel for you both, as I'm sure it's very tiring and frustrating!

My mum taught me to relax each body part in turn, she sat with me and talked through - your toes are really tired and sleepy, feel how heavy they are they are falling asleep now it's spreading up your feet to your ankles your whole foot is going to sleep etc... Working all the way up to your neck and head - she then left me to go through it in my own head - I never got past my shoulders and still use this technique if I'm having problems sleeping :)

Thank you so much for your comments. I hadn't realised how depressed I was about this until I started this thread. Poor dd is miserable too. The anxiety of not being happy without me and not being able to fall asleep isn't helping her relax either.
Good tip about actually closing her eyes!

If I ever couldn't sleep as a little one my mum would tell me to imagine a beach with the waves coming in repeatedly, and imagine how calm I would be if I was on the beach. (She still did this when I was doing my final teaching practice and couldn't sleep- and it worked!)

Snowfed, we have done this, both with that technique and with guided relaxation stories. If in the right mood, she will do it, and we have a sweet bedtime cd that takes you through relaxing each body part. But often she doesn't want to do it. I have explained to her that she has to 'let' herself go to sleep - she works herself in to a state where she's too tense and agitated to be able to fall asleep. And she will do anything to keep me in the same room, which I'm not sure what to do about. (I'm not even that far away, just down the stairs in the kitchen). Why would a 7 year old be so determined to keep mummy there? It can feel very controlling. Phew. Thanks for the support everyone.

How about just encouraging her to read (if she likes reading)? At some point, she will naturally get tired. She will probably still get to sleep quite late, but better than non-stop crying!

Just want to add sympathy, no real advice.

DD is 6 1/2 and we are currently going though a bad patch.

We do a 'yoga' a bit like snowfedup describes which calms her if she has wound herself up. It works sometimes. Earlier bedtimes sometimes help but sometimes just prolong the agony. not always like this but she also wakes up almost every single night at least once.

You are not alone. (Also glad to know it's not just us, sorry!)

I was still am a bit like this. I found the process of 'going to sleep' dull, as I loved reading, playing, thinking etc, and the concept of 'switching off' was alien

I used to read by the light coming in through the door hinge, and I swear this gave me shit eyesight.

I still find that if I'm not actually physically tired (best) or at least mentally tired, I don't really know how to drop off, and tend to read until I sleep.

So, can you give your DD more exercise, physical or mental? My mum would swear by letting me get up, but only to run round the garden (summer/still light days) or do extra homework. Not for tv/playing. I did it too, even extra maths! Anything was more fun than sleeping.

Shazbean don't even get me started on the waking up at night...which can be just once now but for years was several times every night. Or the night terrors. She doesn't seem to 'do' sleeping.
Humpty, it may well be active brain, she's a very active person and thinks a lot (too much). I will have fun suggesting extra homework!!

What about hot milk before bed, or cherry juice? Something that makes you sleepyish so you're already in the right frame of mind?

Hi sparrow ghost. Have heard of and occasionally tried warm milk to help with sleep but interesting to hear cherry juice helps too. Will check it out. Thanks.

Off to bed myself now...I am sleep deprived enough to have no problems of my own going to sleep! I will check in tomorrow. Thank you lovely mumsnetters. Xx

Yes, I feel your pain.
It's the over-thinking, once it starts it's hard for them to stop.
I'm the same so I do empathise with her but it's so tough when you know they are exhausted, you are exhausted and you just wish they would go to sleep.
There are times now though when the good nights outweigh the bad, I'm just waiting for the balance to swing in my favour.

Sorry only read the OP, but does she read in bed? That's what helps me to switch off from the daytime and start feeling sleepy enough to go to sleep. I struggle otherwise. My dds have got one of those IKEA wall lights behind their bed to read by, I have a side lamp. It's better than lying there fretting

I am still like that.

I would definitely try earlier nights - it's easy to 'go past it'.

I would also talk to her and say that you are very happy to help her find things that will 'teach' her to go to sleep, but not at bedtime. That at x o'clock she has to 'self settle' and that no amount of fuss will get her any more attention. None. That you will not be manipulated by her - she is old enough to be told it's not acceptable.

It's important to remove the power struggle first - as long as she is going to her room & trying to settle herself leave her alone, don't keep checking to see if she is asleep, don't 'invest' in how much sleep she is getting, just that she is getting herself to sleep.

Tell her that for every 5 minutes she is 'fussing' after x o'clock she loses x amount of time 'doing whatever it is she enjoys - screen time/playing/bath etc' - there will be no more 'warnings' Then when it happens - no telling off, no shouting, no 'rewarding' - just let her carry on and deduct it the next day (or whatever).

Oh and it's short term pain for long term gain - so you & DS will just have to 'suck it up' for a bit :(

Good luck.

My ddregularly tries this on.

She always get the same response

Lie quietly and sleep will come

My 7 year old DD is currently doing the EXACT same thing despite the fact that up till now she has been a brilliant sleeper. Nothing's working so far and she's now saying she's scared of the dark and insisting on a light on which isn't helping. Argh.

Just wondering if a warm bath with lavender oil might help or a lavender wheat warm pack to cuddle x

I was, and am, like this - as a child I remember lying there trying to keeep my eyes getting more bored and frustrated that I wasn't asleep.

My parents tried different things for different ages including some you've already mentioned but one or two that worked well were:
They (or an older sibling) would sit in doorway where I could see them but they could read/knit/whatever, until I was asleep (appreciate this may not be what you want to do as you can't share load with older siblings, I had several who took it in turns and did school reading in my doorway)

Dad would make me a 'special' sleepy hot drink - he admits now was just normal horlicks and honey but the big deal of a special drink would calm me down and get me in right mood for sleep

When I was a bit older my dad would set me little mind exercises to do, for example long maths sums or he would say the first line of a story or limerick and I would have to make up the rest - the activity would keep me from being anxious until my brain relaxed

He would ask me to try and remember people in my class in a particular order, for example the way they sat in a particular class photo or how we sat at story time last week. I still do similar 'exercises' now if I am struggling to sleep.

Also the reading to sleep thing - I still do this and several family children do, too, with good night lights which parents sneak in and switch off later in the night.

A friend's child also has trouble sleeping - she is older - and my friend invested in special hypnotherapy CDs for her, basically taking her through guided relaxtions I think, and they seemed to help. My natal hypnotherapy CDs always made me fall asleep so perhaps there is something in this...