Shall I just lie from now on?

[TheRealAmandaClarke]

Ranting. Sorry. Feel free to ignore

I have an 11 mo dd who wakes once or twice at night to bf.
My ds did the same. (they hate me )

With the exception of one excellent friend, It is not possible for me to mention that I am tired, or answering an enquirely about dd's sleep, without hearing about how I'd be best placed letting her CIO for a couple of nights.
This is coming from ppl who I've already explained my reasons to for not wanting to do that.
It feels so unhelpful and critical.

So I think I shall just reply to any sleep related question with "oh, she's great, goes right through from ....ooh, 7'til 7."

Are they right?

Why can't ppl just make sympathetic noises and acknowledge that some DCs don't sleep through yet?
HAve I failed at this bit of parenting?

Shit!

Oh and while I'm at it I've decided that all that rod for your own back stuff is bollocks too. I mean if you follow it through to its logical conclusion, having children at all is making a rod for your own back in many ways. You end up with less money, less time, less freedom, less spontaneity. But you accept all those 'rods' because you want to be a parent and because the rewards hugely outweigh the bad parts (I didn't think this at 1am this morning btw).
So parenting is therefore a rod for your own back and nobody tells you not to make a rod for your own sodding back merely by the act of becoming a parent, do they?
Btw I already regret and miss all the cuddles I didn't have with DD in bed until she was 7m old because I didn't want to make a rod for my own back!! And it's not as if that has helped much!
AmandaClarke you have unleashed the harridan in me :)

rods are for fishing!

a million links to sites and research supporting your maternal instincts emerald et al....

www.attachmentparenting.co.uk/sleeping/4559162385

Emerald my DD is the same. Happiest, sunniest little baby ever...but when she wants her mama nothing else will do!

I had all the cio bollocks and you have to give him a bottle as obv not getting enough from you, however I will never forget hearing cousin complain about how tired she was, I asked was her ds sick, and she said no, she is just tired as he was waking her up 4 or 5 ruins a night crying in his sleep looking for dummy,

I thought it was hilarious as apparently this still counted as slipping through the night,

After that I just started saying he was a great sleeper, but didn't go into details on what great was lol

Thanks darjeeling
emerald good for you.

Good for us all!! Roarrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

I whinge and bitch and moan to all and sundry about how shit DD (2yo) is at sleeping. Funnily enough whenever I go public on it after a bout of silence (read marginally ok nights as opposed to chronically awful) it's amazing how many other people with toddlers who don't sleep come crawling out of the woodwork.

Occasionally I get told to count my blessings by friends without children but more frequently get thanked for keeping it real for those who've chosen not to have them and those who can't - I am their shining light of despondency amongst all the other smug parents

I've read most of the thread and certainly the last 20 odd posts and have to say what most of you are saying about their babies (and toddlers') sleep is 100% normal

Humans are the only mammals that seem to have this idea that their young can survive away from their parents at a very early age.

Babies and children are meant to close to you. You are meant to be tired because of this - it's shit and not very nice, but unfortunately, Western society doesn't deem tiredness or babies wanting their parents as ok - everyone focuses on solutions, even when what's being experienced is entirely normal.

These kind of threads appear all the time. Parents looking for advice or solutions to solve sleep "problems". If we were open and honest about there being no problem in the first place, society would begin to change or lower the expectations of parents and babies sleeping through.

The white lies about sleep, make your sleep experiences with your babies sound abnormal as it adds more parents to the anecdotal pot of gossip that your baby slept through or is a good baby from x months, when in reality, this isn't the case for most babies.

At any opportunity I mention DD's sleep pattern. She's now 29 months and sleeps through 5/7 nights. This was from around 18months. However, even now, she wakes early, cries at random times of the night, demands food and milk some nights and generally would prefer to be with DP and I if given the opportunity at 4am.

As such to me:

1. Waking in the night is normal

2. Safely co sleeping / part co sleeping is more common than you think

I speak to far more people who have experiences similar to mine than ones whose babies sleep through.

As for advice on CIO / CC from strangers or family/friends should always have a polite but firm response on where you stand; so it doesn't welcome more unnecessary advice.

I've politely said STFU. I'm quite measured in my responses to ensure it is clear what I do and don't believe in.

The best response (to family /friends) would be to provide evidence (plenty out there on CIO / CC).

I firmly believe in: that isn't my parenting style at all, what made you choose that method /approach.

I'd ask if they researched it, found evidence on it and explain my research resulted in us not following that route. It's hard to argue with a knowledge person!

Finally, for anyone needing a solution or just wants to read some evidence on sleep - No Cry Sleep Solution (Gill Pantry) is good. Also, nightweaning blog by Dr Jay Gordon (there is a method he suggests but he gives lots of reasons not to do it initially, so it's a good read)

DD was the worst sleeper ever. Even now, at 10, she gets up at the crack of dawn. However now, in the morning, she looks after the baby and practices her piano. She is about to take Grade 3, and all her practice is done at silly-o-clock. Just tell everyone you're training her up to learn some great skill :D

DS1 fed to sleep until he was 3.5. He is now, at 7, an absolute dream going to bed.

DS2 (4 months) generally only wakes twice and goes to sleep on his own in the cot. He sleeps in until 8 most mornings, later at the weekend. I have done NOTHING differently. I bet he'll be shit at the piano, though ;)

We aren't all liars you know! My twins have slept through since 10 weeks; it's nothing I've done, they just do. Obviously we have the occasional night waking if their room gets too cold or they are popping a particularly nasty tooth, or they have a bad dream, but these events are quit rare and I resent being thought of as lying or boastful if I talk about their sleep honestly.

Funny, I know a set of twins who've always slept really well too. I wonder if having their twin close by helps?

But you'd think you'd be less cranky with all the sleep you're getting feesh!

fadbook - a brilliantly written post. I whole heartedly agree. Much of what you say is scientifically backed on the Durham Sleep Lab ISIS website.

mmmbacon - I've witnessed this. a conversation with friends (dhs and mine, husbands and wives) where I was tentatively explaining how the cosleeping was good/ just do what you can to maximise sleep had the comment about one of the other babies 'she sleeps through' then tempered by said baby's dad describing how you can hear her scrambling round the cot looking for her dummy.

The whole sleeping thing annoys me as it's almost a competitive thing. I was asked if he was a 'good' baby by an older lady. I didn't want to know what she meant and hastily said oh yes (he is very easy - sat for 2 hours happily on my knee at a walk in centre on Monday no toys or food - just a bit of boob sometimes.) but I know she meant sleep. I know dh would boast if ds slept all night in his cot.

Sleeping through simply means the child does not cry out for their parents when they wake. This is seen as such a negative thing but evolutionarily speaking a very normal reaction to finding they are alone. All children are different - my ds is very socially aware, very happy too (though going through a clingy phase at 13 months), since very small he's always engaged with any adult he can find, spends a lot of time checking faces for reactions etc. I've noticed this compared to his peers, some of whom are more interested in food, some toys, others also are very into faces. He gets so upset at night if he can't feel me. If he feels me he just flops back over or on me - it's not even about a breast feed, though that helps if he cant go back to sleep.

Again I don't see this as bad. He's who he is. He's very attached - which is GOOD. I'm not saying a child who doesn't cry for mum in the night ISN'T attached though, just a different child. I'd love him to not need me so much at night - one day this will happen.
Independence comes from confidence. children learn to do things independently when they feel confident enough to do it.

I'm a BIG fan of listen to the little things when they're little or they might not tell you the big things when they're big. This is about developing the secure bond of trust - I am here for you. In my professional work (asd) I see this with children I work with. They progress when we allow for and support their anxieties. We gain their trust - we won't ask you to do things you find hard/ upsetting. Once they know this, they relax, gain confidence and always eventually
start to want to progress and become more and more independent. So, from my point of view I don't feel the need to cc etc, simply respond to his needs and get him to sleep however he wants.

The brain of a baby does not stop developing/ growing till age 3. This is quite a big point to make. interestingly lots of people report sleep getting much better between 2-3.

Amongst my baby mummy friends there is a huge range of sleep patterns. and really interestingly babies have changed a lot. One slept VERY well for 6 months. Not now. However he screamed A Lot all day long I might add so it wasn't all good!

I do believe you have to follow your instincts - and if you feel you have to do cc so be it, I'm not sure it necessarily 'solves' anything long term. And sleep when you can.

oops essay

Some more good points Darjeelingdarling - you added to my essay

feesh I'm not calling you a liar, far from it. My whole point is that every baby is different and it is normal for some to sleep long periods early on, and also normal for babies not to sleep for l

Some more good points Darjeelingdarling - you added to my essay

feesh I'm not calling you a liar, far from it. My whole point is that every baby is different and it is normal for some to sleep long periods early on, and also normal for babies not to sleep for long periods. It's the perception that sleeping through should be encouraged - it shouldn't, babies will develop their own patterns and in time will be taught / learn to sleep in line with western society sleep patterns.

It's interesting the point about twins though - there are twins in my family who slept through from an early age too; perhaps it is a comfort thing.

Hotter European countries have day naps / siestas well in to adult hood.

African countries wake early to work (with babies on their backs) and sleep later in the day when it's too hot.

Each baby will be different and have to learn our way.

No offend fesh but time and a place eh

Nobody is calling you a liar but frankly I also don't want to hear about your twins sleeping through from an abnormally early age, regardless of whether you intervened or not.

2 years of sleep deprivation here and I'm afraid I don't particularly feel your pain so maybe start another thread about how mean all of us who never get a decent night's sleep are. This is supposed to sound more lighthearted than it probably does but I'm too tired to care.

FWIW my friend has twins - one slept through from 8months, the other a year later. Every baby is different. Another twin mum I know followed GF and thankfully it didn't backfire on her

America - at time and place. It is unusual to be sleeping through from 8 weeks in my experience (as a bf peer supporter).

Good posts.
I am happy to hear about babies who sleep really well.
I am not happy to hear ppl telling me I should leave my baby to cry at night.