Tackling Controlled crying with a frequently waking ~ 8 MO (before I go insane)

[zuinthecity]

My DD is nearly 8mo and her sleeping habits are slowly but surely killing me. She goes to bed with no problem (usually) around 7/8pm and gets up for the day after 8am. With between 10 and 16 waking up cries a night when nothing but my breast consoles her and sends back to sleep. I tried rocking, singing, patting, shushing but it's fine for 10 seconds but "mom, now give me your boob or I'll stay awake for hours". Which, btw, happens too. Every two/three nights one of her cries turns into 2-3 hour struggle to put her back to bed. Times vary, two weeks ago it was between 3:30 and 5-6:00, last week from midnight til 2/3:00 am. At some point I give up and take her to bed as getting up every twenty minutes is pure madness. She doesn't sleep much better there either.
Most of the time she just nibbles and drifts off to sleep within minutes, sometimes though she has a proper feed.
I know I made a mistake of creating a wrong sleeping association with the whole breast in the mouth to sleep (she falls asleep while nursing obviously) but still, I'm getting insane. Haven't slept for longer than 3 hours at a time since she was born and that only recently as finally I managed to get my partner involved. We sleep separetly as he snores and that disturbs the little sleep i get a lot! anyway, He managed to put her to sleep by rubbing her cheek and shushing. Didn't work the other night when we decided to sleep in the same room as my presence turns the boob alarm on :/

So we decided to start the cc, just not really sure how to tackle it with her waking up so many times. Do we follow the, let's say, 3/5/7/10 minutes check ups every time, every waking? Do I still feed her before bed just make sure she doesn't fall asleep? Lights on/ lights off every time?
And how to do the whole thing if we're sleeping in the same room? Should I for the time being sleep in the spare bedroom? Will coming back to the bedroom after and if we succeed in at least breaking this association and cutting down the number of wakings destroy the whole work?

Help please before I cut my own throat!

Firstly have you checked there is nothing wrong? My first baby did exactly this (and 8 months was exactly the when I couldn't take any more and tried to give her to the health visitor). She used to wake after 20 to 40 minutes. Always. And take at least an hour to settle.
It turned out her rather quick birth had caused a problem with the top not her spine and lying down was painful. A short course of osteopathy cured it. She is still not a big sleeper (some kids just don't need as much) and at age 6 she still sleeps much less than us recommended for her age.
But my main point is this, she was my first and j treated her exactly the same as my next 2 (yes, fed to sleep etc etc) and they slept much better.

I'm anti-controlled crying, I'd rather sleep with my boob in a baby's mouth, but if you go for that please make sure there isn't another reason your baby isn't sleeping.

Thanks for your reply. She has been checked and everything is fine with her. That's what we've been told. How deep should i dig when i hear she's fine? I don't want to sound paranoid:/
I assumed she's one of these children that need less sleep, but I'd rather settle for a shorter but continuous sleep cycle than 12 hours with 14 pitstops. The thing is that I was also anti controlled-crying (and probably still am on a general level) but right now, I'm a sleep-deprived, desperate, always grumpy ball of frustration and unhappiness, who's not a lot of fun to be around for both partner and the baby. So it's either this or an inevitable split up, single parenting and depression. I'm going for that and it's like going to war, a nasty business but sometimes has to be done to avoid greater tragedy.

Massive sympathy!

Have you looked at the No Cry Sleep Solution - it suggests gentle methods of improving sleep and stopping feeding to sleep. Particularly helpful for us has been the Pantley Pull Off Method. We are now able to resttle without feeding, junior can self-settle sometimes too.

We were on 45 minutes wake ups at 4 months but now at 7 months we are getting stretches of 4-6 hours (unless teething/ill). We've been using NCSS for maybe 6 weeks.

It's not fast progress but I'm hoping it lasts. With CC I've heard it has to be repeated any time you hit teething/illness etc.

There is a big thread on here about it, I just don't know how to post links.

Hope you get more sleep soon.

Sounds like she wants comfort. And needs & wants are the same thing at this age.

8 months is a common time for separation anxiety. Could also be teething, ear ache, belly ache etc. she can't tell you, she can only cry.

Have you tried co-sleeping? You can feed her lying down & get more sleep/rest this way.

Can you catch up on sleep during the day?

What does your partner do to give you a break?

If you're going to do controlled crying then I think it's recommended to wait until 1.

No, it's not recommended to wait till 1 for CC, it's recommended to wait till 6 months. Just be sure she's not ill or teething. I agree with you OP that CC is not great but sometimes it's the lesser of two evils.

In answer to your questions OP (since no one else has answered them)

• yes, still feed before bedtime, she can get sleepy, but make sure she doesn't fall asleep at all. bright room, talk to her, etc.

• ideally, she should be really quite tired when you put her to bed, like on the verge of dropping off. This should help minimise crying. So maybe aim for a bedtime 15-20 mins later than usual. (not too much later or you're risking overtiredness)

• there are various different options re time intervals. The method we used was to go in every 2 minutes, but only if she sounded really upset. If she was just complaining/calling then we would leave her. So the 2 minute clock only starts once she sounds really upset. And it goes back to zero again when we soothe her or when she quiets herself, and it only starts again the next time she sounds really upset. I thought this method sounded more sensible than going in every 5/8/10 minutes regardless of how upset she was.

• you have to do the same thing at bedtime and at every wake up (and ideally at nap time as well but that's not so critical and naps are harder to sort). Inconsistency is just confusing for them. So if you're going to do this, be sure you mean to stick to it.

• When you come in to soothe her, ideally you keep the lights off, don't pick her up, but stroke/pat/shh her till she is fairly calm. If you need to pick her up to get her calm then do, but then put her down once calm, stroke her briefly and leave. Say night night or shh sleeptime but otherwise don't talk to her. You don't want to be spending 10 minutes in there cuddling her (as then she'll think you'll cuddle to sleep) it should be fairly brief to get her to calm down and then leave again.

• re same bedroom - tbh I would take this opportunity to do it all at once and move her into her own room (assuming that's what you want longer term). I don't think it would really work with you in bed in the same room... Though it might be possible to go back to sharing a room once you've done the CC.

• It's true that CC has to be re done, to some extent, after a bout of teething or illness. When they are teething or illl then they will need cuddles to get to sleep (best not to go back to feeding to sleep if you can help it) and will probably still want the same after the teething/illness is gone. So a bit more CC is required - however IME it is vastly quicker and easier the subsequent times because they do know how to go to sleep alone by now, it's just a reminder is needed.

Good luck.

PS if you're going to do CC, you will need your partner for hugs and moral support (though it's best for only one of you to do the soothing). And you'll need as well.

Minipie, thank you sooo much for your reply. I lost hope someone will actually answer my questions and not try to convince me to use another technique (as my mind has been already set up in this one). I tried NCSS, co-sleeping, co-feeding and co-everything and it just doesn't seem to be working, she gets either more agitated or even more demanding. Which makes it all even worse. Surprisingly, there is a lot of crying as "mommy is not attached to me 24/7";)

I will try to tackle that after Christmas, we have guests over for the entire week and don't want them to spend that time with a banshee baby and her crying mother;) So fingers crossed and hopefully, I'll be able to report soon that all is working well.

Thanks again:) !

You will get an awful lot of people on here that think it is evil, but it really worked for us, and the boys were so much happier once they had learnt to sleep properly at night. I saw it as part of my role, I teach them how to do everything else, so why would, it be wrong to teach my children how to sleep? It is tough, but so worthwhile. You do need a partner on the same page though. If you want to ask any other q's on how we did it fire away!

Good luck and yes do whatever you need to to get through Christmas!

zuin a friend did cc with success with her bf baby at 10 mo BUT she bought the book and read it cover to cover - I'd probably do this if I were to try cc, but it's not for me and cosleeping and boob to sleep works ok for us at 13 mo.

it was the only parenting book she bought.

just one more thing to add OP - if she's used to getting night feeds then it may be a bit much to go straight to no night feeds at all, at the same time as teaching self settling. She may well be genuinely hungry as she is used to having some of her food at night.

If you think she is hungry then you should feed her. You don't want to be doing CC while wondering if she is hungry. The important thing though is that you stick with insisting on self settling and don't let her fall asleep during any night feeds.

once she's learned to self settle you can then worry about cutting night feeds - but you may find that once she can self settle, she only wakes once or even not at all for a feed.

This all sounds really difficult and you really do have my sympathy. My dd wakes A LOT due to eczema so I do know how it can be. However I just wanted to say the latest research strongly condemns CC. When babies are crying and distressed cortisol levels are raised in their brains - baby brains are immature and cortisol is not helpful - when parents think CC has worked ie the baby is not crying but awake often the cortisol levels are just as high ie the baby is just as distressed but isn't crying as they have learnt no one is coming Please go on PubMed - this is the medics version of google - there is NO evidence base for most sleep training strategies and when you compare babies who have been 'trained' a few months down the line there is no difference between them and untrained infants - ie often after all that hard work there's no longterm effect anyway. I know that lots of people say CC worked for them etc however the new research base re cortisol levels and how feeling safe and attached is best for babies longterm emotional and neurological development is so strong lots of areas are retraining medics and HVs re sleep advice. My dd has never slept thru at 16mths. We have ended up cosleeping very happily. CC is not the only way. CC can really affect your baby - you are essentially teaching a baby that when they wake and it's dark and they don't know where you are and they are distressed that no one will respond Babies have shorter sleep cycles. They wake more than adults. They are supposed to. It's really tough what you are going through but surely it can't be tougher than ignoring an 8mth old crying and crying. Sorry. I really wish you all the best. Please look at the recent evidence - this is not just my personal opinion.

Hugs xx

There was a discuss over in Parenting the other day and someone posted this link - obviously not the current research in full but a flavour - hope I can copy it right -

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9286683/Babies-left-to-cry-feel-stressed-research-finds.html

Hi zu

Massive sympathy, we have been/are going thru this at the mo with an 11mo who would only sleep when rocked (and sometimes not even then), woke up multiple times every night sometimes for hours at a time and was pretty much killing me. Like you I didn't really want to do cc but didn't know what else to try, pupd and ncss hadn't worked for us and it had been going on for months.

In the end we are trying gradual retreat, from the andrea grace book which I saw highly recommended on here . I mention it as she also has a cc method in the same book if that is what you have decided to do, and the best part is that as well as loads of really helpful general tips, there are case studies of real people she has helped, with a step by step plan for what to do each night. There is one for frequent night feeding and how to stop it and get them sleeping through which sounds like it would be perfect for you. definitely worth trying, and it is a quick read especially if you just pick out the relevant bits. I think it would answer a lot of your questions and it might help to follow a plan. It is working well for us so far, we are on day 9 and she slept thru on day 7 (11hrs straight). Considering where we were just a fortnight ago, the change is amazing. Yes there has been crying but it hasnt been as bad as I though and tbh she cried before sometimes when we rocked her anyway as she was frustrated.

I know the whole cc thing is controversial but you have to do what works for you. Everyone has a different breaking point and you know when you have reached yours and you have to make a change so you can enjoy your baby. That's exactly what happened for me. It is hard going but actually easier to deal with than what we had before and although she is not sleeping independently yet (I still need to be in the room) it is so much better.

Also there is a difference between cc and CIO and I wonder if the article linked above doesn't actually mean CIO rather than cc. There was a link on netmums which said Harvard research had showed that cc, done in a loving stable home which yours clearly is, wasn't damaging to the child.

Loads of luck, you will get it sorted! And really I know there are a lot of books out there as I feel like I have read them all, but Andrea's actually works!!! Let us know how you get on.

Ultimately there is lots of research out there saying what is best for your child. You can try to do the 'best' thing, but if that doesn't work for you OP, try something else. There is lots of good advice up there from Minipie - I have done cc with my DS who is 12mo and he sleeps through an is fine.

He has never 'learned that no one comes if he cries'... This is a very narrow view of this parenting style...of course I go to my baby if he is upset at night: I just don't go straight away. I give him a couple of minutes, like minipie says, to see if he will calm himself down (often he wakes in the night has a little grizzle for 2-3 mins and then goes back to sleep...if I went into the room during those 3 mins I would massively disturb him, the crying would ramp up from grizzling to full on tears and we would all be in a right mess!).

Incidentally, a few times DS has has woken up screaming and crying in absolute hysterics. We think he had woken from a nightmare cos the noise he was making cut right through us like a knife and me and DH ran straight out of bed and scooped him up in our arms cos no parent on earth could ignore those sort of sobbing noises. But the normal 'crying' noises he makes when he stirs for a bit in the night are nothing like this - it's more like the baby version of me waking up, looking at my phone to see the time and then rolling back over to sleep.

Do what's right for you. There will be lots of people on here who say any kind of cc is just wrong. But how can it be if you love your LO and are trying to do the right thig??

Please bear in mind there are also people on here with very strong negative feelings about all sorts f other things to do with parenting...most of them I have done and my DS is fine!! (He loved being carried in the baby Bjorn facing forwards when he was little, he was in his own room at 6 weeks old, he has a dummy, I weaned him at 5mo, I used purées, I bottle fed him from 12 days old, he stopped drinking formula altogether at 10mo - I couldn't convince him to drink a drop no matter what I did - he has loved watching the odd 10 mins of Baby TV since he was about 4mo, he was happiest facing away from me in the buggy from about 3 months old....). You get the picture: there's a lot of chat on here about the ideals of parenting but in my experience life isn't really like that. I love my son incredibly but being his mum has involved a million compromises where my plans for how I was going to parent him have fallen by the wayside when faced with the realities of no sleep, a hungry baby at 5mo etc etc etc.

I am not a bad parent. And neither are you for considering helping your baby to sleep better.

Good luck xx

Ps I realised I didn't answer your questions, sorry!! Can't comment on the details of cc in when to go back in as haven't done that, but otherwise gradual retreat is pretty much the same (ie. They still cry the same, you are just there and graduly moving away over time rather than popping in and out. Both work and cc is meant to be quicker)

So on feeding before bed,yes definitely and keep lights on/talk or something to keep her awake (my dd used to fall asleep when I did bottle with lights off). With comforting, I say night night/sleepytime and pat the mattress to get her to lie down which she does eventually. Is your dd standing? If not, ignore that bit!! We also have a few Lovey's and I let her choose which to fall asleep with (it changes most nights!!) And take the rest away once she is asleep so the cot isn't full of toys lol!!

I wasn't sure if you were planning to get her into a separate room anyway? If so, I would say it definitely makes sense to do it all at the same time. We found dd slept better in her own room as we weren't all disturbing each other, but we didn't move her til 5mths.

Anyway hope that helps, lots of luck and hope you enjoy your Christmas wihout worrying about the cc!

The linked research is by someone who is in the "Attachment Parenting International's Research Group", so not an unbiased source.

While we're throwing research about, this study has found no long term harm to sleep training: www.mcri.edu.au/media/148190/final_paper.pdf

I do not know why people get their knickers in such a twist about CC. Any studies showing harm from elevated cortisol levels have either been in animals, or in institutionalised children. The study linked upthread mentions an elevated cortisol level, how elevated?

I cannot bear the guilt-tripping of sleep-deprived parents, in the name of a bizarre type of martyrdom.

If anyone can bring me a long term, peer-reviewed study showing definite harm caused by CC in otherwise loving families, I'll listen.

^^ yes yes this. Put more more eloquently than I could manage. I think there is a lot of overthinking on this subject!

OP you have my sympathy. I had a frequent night waker but not as bad as this. CC worked for me. You've had lots of good advice above, all I'd add is:

1. CC will be impossible if you're in the same room so move her to her own - you might be pleasantly surprised and she might sleep a bit better anyway. My DD actually got more agitated if I was hovering over her cot all night trying to shush her.

2. make absolutely sure she's had enough to eat/drink during the day so you're confident she's not waking out of hunger. I switched to bottle feeding for her afternoon and bedtime bottles at about 8 months before I started sleep training, just so I could be certain how much she was getting. You don't have to do that obviously but it helped me.

And the one thing on Mumsnet that makes me is people who are anti-CC saying "Oh, I co-slept happily til she was 2 / I breastfed him all night for as long as he wanted and I didn't mind". The point is that the OP DOES mind - she's going demented through sleep deprivation and obviously isn't happy to carry on the way things are!!

Thank you all very much for replying. As another night goes on and I already visited my DD three times, I'm getting very much aware my breaking point is right now. I love my LO endlessly but I also have to love myself. Otherwise, what's the point, no child can be truly happy with an unhappy mama, right?
So yes, once the whole Christmas affair ends, we will change things a little around this household

@TurtlesMama, Thank you very much for mentioning the book and the gradual retreat technique. I'm so glad it's working out for you. I'm not ruling it out entirely, think I need to have a look into that and see if that might be something I could live with. Easier. I wasn't planning on moving her to a separate bedroom but possible due to sheer fear that I might end up getting up 15 times anyway and spending bigger part of the night cruising between the rooms (until I fall asleep in between). Think I could manage a couple of day like this but more, not really:/ For now, she ends up sleeping with me every night now, girl has a radar that turns on the moment I go to bed at night, from that moment she won't settle in her cot for longer than 10-15 minutes so every night she ends up with me earlier and earlier. I have a feeling she's getting more demanding (as she succeeds in getting A so she moves to getting B etc.) by the day. So many things to deal with, so many things.... :/

@BotBotticelli, I so agree with you about the ideal vs. real life parenting. All these ideas you have before faced with sleep-deprivation, tiredness and all... I'm aware of making mistakes and not being a perfect parent with home made, organic and wholesome everything but then in the end, our children don't need all that as much as they need a loving, caring parent who protects them and makes sure they're happy. And that's what we're doing, we love out children more than anything and we make sure they learn how to sleep better. Because let's be honest here, the fact she's sleeping bad and wakes up 15 times a night, crying every single time can't be making her happy, can it?

A bit of sleep training is ok, and sometimes essential if you've got to the stage of sleep deprivation where you feel depressed and hopeless.

We did CC with increments of 30 seconds - 3 mins with ds1 and he was so happy and well rested the next day, I couldn't believe it!

Bear in mind that you will feel shit and upset when you do it. It's hard. But as another poster said, you are teaching your child to sleep - helping them get proper rest.

I felt DS1 was more confident and relaxed once he knew how to sleep. He's a brilliant sleeper now (would previously wake every hour) and loves his bed.

Good luck

My ds also did not sleep through the night til he was 8 months old. I was at breaking point. My dh and I were having a terrible time, awake most of the night and i was close to tears for much of the day as I felt I could collapse from tiredness. I was so desperate so we did very strict cc, leaving our ds to cry, but it only took three nights and he has now slept brilliantly through the night ever since (now aged 10 and a very happy child!!).

I refuse to let anyone let me feel guilty about those three nights as it made him a lot happier in the long term. Lots of dc will cry when being left at the childminders, nursery etc, not understanding what is going on, so don't let anyone let you feel guilty for doing cc.

Just came back from wake-up intervention number 4, yay!

Ha, well said, GoshAnne! That guilt-tripping is terrible. Me pre-baby would not care less but me now, barely able to put together a reasonable post, gets so easily tricked into that crap. I'm a human being too, you know?!

Thanks Frenchsticker for supporting the separate bedroom case, I see how it could work and it will be part of the plan then. And agree with you, the whole 'just co-sleep with your boob in her mouth' advice is not for me, to put it gently.

Thanks for the support and kind words, all of you! Your stories give me hope that soon things will change for the better and our family will be saved (and my sanity, gee, I miss thee). I know it's going to be tough but knowing that there is a light at the end of this nasty tunnel, well, it means a lot!
Thank you all again.

Just because other posters have expressed a dislike for controlled crying on an 8mth old baby, does not mean they are trying to guilt trip you.

You are clearly twisting genuine concern into 'guilt tripping' to suit what you want to do as a parent.

That's up to you, but I have a feeling you are ignoring your instincts.

Quite frankly, expecting a small baby to have adult sleep patterns is, in my opinion, ridiculous and deluded.

This doesn't mean that I think I'm a 'perfect parent' and you're a bad parent. I just really feel uncomfortable with controlled crying on a baby.

I'm a single mum to 3 boys 5 and under, the youngest is 15mths. I know what it's like to be sleep deprived. I offered suggestions to help get you through it.

Good luck whatever you do.

I can guarantee your dc will eventually sleep through whatever you do.