At what point would you seek medical intervention to help you child to sleep?

[popsycal]

I have thougth about posting this thread for a fortnight but have avoided it as I think I may be putting myself in the firing line.

But it's Friday night so here we go.

How bad would it have to get for you to consider taking your baby/child to you GP to get some help in getting them to sleep for a longer stretch at night?

Not thinking specifically of medication although I am sure that is on option that a Gp may offer.

Would really appreciate some constructive comments and not being sent to Mumsnet coventry.....

tia

sorry for lack of question marks in appropriate places. agree with cortisol and horribleness of vomiting and crying so much, but that is why cc can work in that you do go in just at longer and longer intervals.

i left ds to cry one lunchtime nap for 40 minutes. he was six months old. it was awful. i was crying in the front room knawing at my knuckles.

but i believe that he learned that he could put himself to sleep and then wake up and be ok. he has slept pretty well since that time.

i don't think that i've scarred him for life as it was just three times (that was the worst and the longest).

god i don't know, this is so awful, i remember so well how awful it was not to be getting any sleep.

:(

maybe you're right geekgirl. maybe it is more humane. i don't know.

We tried controlled crying first..what a nightmare..vomiting,etc sooo stressful never again

I can sympathise completely. Could be couple of other things too - DS started having nightmares about 15months so we put a night light in his room which did make a difference and because it was summer by then we physically sellotaped black out material to the window frame so that he didn't

Also this might help I noticed a milk in Tesco called Night time milk. It has added sleep hormone melatonin - Jimjams mentioned it early down the thread. Might just help to take the edge off being too over tired to fall asleep by himself.

If you don't want to do the complete cc - would you feel easier trying this? give him some of the night time milk and then could you put him to bed and just leave for 30 secs, then go back in after 30 secs - maybe with a max of minute to leave him before returning?

I really do know how soul destroying it feels and how frustrating and when they just won't stop crying! You're shattered and so is he from the sound of it.

I have resorted to drowsy medication as well before now - medised was what we discovered made DS really sleepy - didn't give a full dose, just a half dose and it was enough to help him calm down and relax. Did feel guilty doing it though.

Hope you find something soon that you feel comfortable doing and gets you some results.

Oh popsycal .

Did Aloha ever give you details of her Sleep Lady?

And in your situation I would have no hesitation about at least trying some sort of drowsy medication.

When ds was the same age I came to the end of my tether with him - my dh had started a new job as was away an awful lot - i was working and just decided enough was enough....I had done loads of soft stuff but either couldnt be consistent or was just so damn tired i gave in.
He often came in to us but generally after about midnigt wouldnt sleep more than 1hr or so...was always grumpy and miserable

I was recommnded by about 5 people at work to use millpond all had used them sucessfully or knew direct friends who had. Its a sleep clinic ( although they generally provide telephone support) but you pay ( im my mind) a small fee and i had to do a sleep diary and all sorts of other stuff ...anyway i would say in 2 weeks ds was cured and we have never looked back he's now 3.

They have a website address and i never felt i was being pushed down a certain direcion ( like cc) although I did do a teeny weeny bit of this ( like leaving him for 2 moniutes.....)

I know this sounds like a marketing spiel but honestly i would reaally recommend them before resorting to drugs

actually i'm a total and utter abject hypocrite as when ds has been ill and not sleeping i have used medised with no compunction at all.

go for it. frankly, whatever makes life easier.

you don't have to leave them longer and longer to do cc. I never left him for more than 5 mins and never stayed in for more than 5 mins comforting him and it worked for us.

Just wanted to link to the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health paper on controlled crying for anyone who may not have read it:

\link{http://www.aaimhi.org/documents/position%20papers/controlled_crying.pdf\here}

thank you so so much for all your respomses!
I really was hesitant in posting this thread as I was worried that people may be judgmental and slate me for even considering it,

I am not totally at the last resort but am very close.

Anyway. Last night.

He woke at 10:30 ish but went back to sleep quite quickly with shushing and patting then woke spectacularly at 1ish. I refused point blank to get out of bed (:)) which forced dh to go in. DS2 screamed and screamed for ages. Probably about 45 minutes. Dh wanted to get him out of the cot but I told him not to. Eventually I went in and he still screamed and screamed. Then i put a little night light on an he calmed soooo quickly. I lay next to him on the floor next to the cot and held his hand.
He slept til about 5:30 when I fed him as this is often his morning wake up time. But then he went back to sleep til 7:10.

So a good night.
I am going to persist with this for one more week.
I am going to make an appointment for Friday with my lovely GP and if things are improving then I can cancel it.

I am also going to buy the milpond book now as it is the only one I havent read yet

franny - thanks for that link
it just confirms how i feel abotu the whole thing and makes me feel less 'freak like'
:)

Oh popsy, you are not at all a freak, people just don't talk about it. I promise you that ds has only just started sleeping through and he is 3. Some months you think you are going to go completely mad. I read a few books which made me realise that for some children, this is normal, particularly in breastfeeding / co-sleeping families, which arguably allow a more 'natural', 'pre-civilised' experience for babies.

I honestly think it is the culture of expecting children to sleep in their own rooms and to sleep through the night, that causes most of the problems. We are not designed to do this when young, and the expectation that parents should be getting an undisturbed night, or training their children if they don't get it, is damaging and destructive IMO.

I know you said you had read 'all the books', but I am not sure if you have read books which are not about sleep training, but just accept babies' sleep patterns are different to ours and explain why. \link{http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385483627/qid=1149938398/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0548513-2519827\Our Babies Ourselves} is one such book, and a wonderful read to boot.

Boys in bed now so thought I would come back and reply properly to everyone who I havent properly replied to yet - you have given me so much good advice.

alp - pick up put down makes him more hyseterical. having tried most things, leaving him in his cot shushing and patting is the best of them all. He just gets mixed messages if I pick him up as he thinks I might feed him.

sallystrawberry - sounds as though you had a really hard time of it. Ds2;s diet is pretty good. Rarely has sweet/processed stuff and drinks water other than breastmilk so I don't thikn that is an issue yet. Worth considering as he gets older though. DS2 has a lullaby fimble which I use on an evening where he gets himself to sleep. I sometimes turn this on during the night for him too but sometimes it makes him worse. He can get himself to sleep no problem at bed time asfter a feed. I put him in his cot and he just goes off. Took a lot (of ridiculous strategies) to get him there but he does it. Tonight, he even stopped feeding, jumped up, kissed me and said bye bye! cac! (cot)
and off he went!
I had hoped that his sleep would improve once he stared walking. He has been walking for 3 months now and no change. He is on his feet all day. I take him where ever I take ds1 (who needs a heck of a lot of wearing out!!!) so he is pretty active - much more so than ds1 was at the same age.

apronstrings - sounds alost identical to our situation. Dh and I constantly bicker - nothing serious. We have a good relationship really but we are both so knackered and fed up with it all that it is almost inevitable. Think he is feeling the 'lack of our own bed' quite a lot at the minute IYSWIM!

hattie05 - sounds like a really stressful time. ds2 is much mush worse in our bed in terms of how frequently he wakes up. He constantly wants to feed and it is driving me loopy. I try not to listen to what 'they' say but I have to say, it does get to me now.

liath - i have thougth long and hard about your post. In terms of ds2 - yes his reward for walking was a cuddle and a feed and sometimes coming into the big bed. For the last fortnight he has not had that and still no marked improvement. In terms of me, I really don't think I am getting anything postive out of it at all. I can see that my comments about DH could have led you down that train of thought. Or relationship is somewhat strained at time but at the bottom of it all we are two people who really love each other who are shattered and fed up. The lack of sleep led me to have 2 long periods of sick from work since september then left me with no other option but to drastically reduce my workng hours (and therefore my pay) in february. Almost soley due to this. Don't think even on a subconscious level I as, perpetuating it for personal reasons. Thanks for bringing it up though as it made me think.

threebob - tried medised. makes no difference.

albert - sounds like a realy rough time. I live in fear that I will end up in a similar situation

dinosaur - i got the details of the sleep lady but she is in london and I am in the north east. financially we just cant do it

franny - thanks for the link - i will have a look at that book now. I go through phases of 'surrendering myself' to the situation and just going with the flow. But add to that a boystrous nearly 4 year old who gets up between 5 and 6am, comes charging into the room shouting its morning itmorning. a very loud cockerel is shouting to get into my window
and is a whirlwind from the moment he wakes til the moment he sleeps...

well
the pair of them just exhaust me
!

...and that is a record sized post for me:)

I have posted on your threads before, as DD2 is a terrible sleeper too. Bu tthe difference is that she will go bavk to sleep v quickly, she seems to just need reassurance that we are still here. Bloody HV had the cheek to suggest it was because DH puts her to bed as I go to work about that time. .

Anyway, I have maintained atht if it starts to really disrupt our life, then I will go to the GP and ask for help. So far it hasn't, as whilst she wakes about 4 times a night, she simply needs to be patted gently, sometimes just ahve the door opened, and then she is reassuerd that we are here and goes back down.
But if it got to that stage, I would need help.

We all need sleep, inc yoyr son, so all that you'd be doing is helping him. Maybe you just need to break the cycle. But really, you nedd to do what is right for your family, sod what other peolpe say/think. None of their business!

Hi Popsycal, sorry to hear you are having such a hard time. At that age, my dd was waking up 3 times an hour. If she slept 3 hours at a stretch, it was like the lottery. I co-slept, bf-ed dd - was exhausted with it all. I ended up freaking out at night. This frightened dd into a nursing strike. Although I did not want to wean her (because it was working during the day and helped with her tantrums), I decided I could not take her frequent nightwakings and nibblings anymore. I weaned her cold turkey. She did not protest.

Miraculously, her sleep improved so much she was sleeping through (erm about 6 hours) within weeks. We still co-sleep and for a long time now, she has been sleeping 11 hours straight.

I would have been the last person to think that weaning from bf-ing would improve her sleep. As it is I was terrified that if I no longer could bf her to sleep, I would not have any other way. But it turned out she woke up less anyway. Not saying it will work for your ds. But just wanted to share my experience with dd.

If medised didn't work- try another antihistamine, or try one in tandem with the other things you decide to use.

I wouldn't personally use medication, I would rather consult a sleep expert. Having said that, I went through a similar situation as you for almost two years and didn't bother getting any help. I think I just thought it would resolve itself in time (had I known then how long it would take, I would've done something about it). Also he is my only child so that makes things a bit easier. Anyway, I don't think you're being selfish at all. Sleep deprivation is a terrible thing.

Popsy, honey, how awful. All the advice here is really, really good. Huge commiserations. It's a killer, lack of sleep, and no wonder you're so exhausted you haven't the energy for a Big Push on it.

Another vote for cc here, although I am a total hypocrite as I've never had to do it in a full-blown way. Having experienced sleep after the first months of no sleep, though, I'm fully convinced I would have done absolutely anything to get a decent night it it had gone on to 15 months.

After reading blueshoes' post, I am reflecting that weaning ds from falling asleep at the breast, was probably the thing that helped him finally to wake up less at night. It took us 3 years to get to the point where he was happy to do it, but it did the trick in the end.

popsycal - the offer is still there to borrow that Millpond book if you like. Have to say, the nights when we have had a better sleep have been when there has been a gentle form of cc - starting at 2 minutes. Will do this when our 2nd gets her own room.

Have teh same concerns as blueshoes about weaning off bf - what do you do to calm then then?

You can just do \link{http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/weaning-night.html\night time weaning}, and still breastfeed in the day, if you want to.

I agree it would be a shame to wean altogether to solve a sleep problem, if you didn't really really have to.

tinker - actually i would love to borrow your book
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ds2 can fall asleep without feeding
he does it every evening...

last night we had marginal success.....lay on floor and kept the room lighter. he only took 30 seconds or so to go back off until about 4:30 when he was really unsettled for about an hour and i finally fed him at 5:30 and ds1 was up at 5:45

work tomorrow and totally knackered after a bog day out today
loads of work to do tonight and house work
grrrrr