At what point would you seek medical intervention to help you child to sleep?

[popsycal]

I have thougth about posting this thread for a fortnight but have avoided it as I think I may be putting myself in the firing line.

But it's Friday night so here we go.

How bad would it have to get for you to consider taking your baby/child to you GP to get some help in getting them to sleep for a longer stretch at night?

Not thinking specifically of medication although I am sure that is on option that a Gp may offer.

Would really appreciate some constructive comments and not being sent to Mumsnet coventry.....

tia

franny - just looked at your night weaning link - i am doing most of that

i am going to persist.
if i can do it until friday i will/ will make doc appoitment tomorrow
by that time it wll have been 3 weeks...

Have emailed you popsy

jut emailed you back tinker

Tinker, you asked: "Have teh same concerns as blueshoes about weaning off bf - what do you do to calm then then?"

This will sound over-the-top, but the only other way dd would fall asleep without crying, apart from nursing, is being in the buggy. So I just put her in the buggy and wheeled her to sleep in the kitchen at night, then transferred her to bed.

As for how to calm if dd woke up in the middle of the night, she woke up dramatically less to begin with. But if she did wake up, either me or dh would take her downstairs and wheel her back down in the buggy. The beauty was that this was something dh could do - I was at the end of my tether having to do all the night wakings on my own.

When dd was older, would have been 20+ months, I felt we could lay down limits and explain things to her better. Told her that she was not allowed to go downstairs/buggy if she woke up in the night. If she cried (invariably), then I would try to shush her back down - we co-sleep. If she did not settle, say, after 15 mins, then I would put her in her cot and give her a choice - either in bed with me quietly or in the cot on her own. This might take a few times, with her hysterical in the cot for 2-3 mins at a time before I went to her. She eventually got the message after 1-2 days. I guess you might say it is cc, but I felt she was old enough to understand limits at that stage. And she always had the choice to sleep with me in my bed - which she would choose ultimately. Very strong-willed child

Popsy - to my mind the shush, shush pat or pick up put down techniques actually make them worse. The more I try and comfort DD ( same age as yours, on March post natal group) the more upset she gets.
Have you seen any of the Little Angels/Supernanny programmes? Those might give you some inspritation and help you bite the bullet with regards to CC. What is it about the CC that puts you off? The actual technique itself or the fear of how your DS is going to react?
I know you are dreading doing it, but I think for your own sanity you should try to get psyche yourself up and do it.
What about getting a sleep consultant/ child routine advisor to come in and help get get you on the right track. Know it won't be cheap but may be very well spent.

i just feel uncomfortable with cc in general.
I actually did it with ds1 at 17 months ut purely to get him to go to sleep of an evening on his own. He moaned for about 2 minutes then went to sleep and that was it. he slept through from around 5-6 months.

Last night was a spectacualr failure. I was sooo shattered and boiling hot that i fed him at about 4am and brought him into bed rather than lying on the damned spare cot mattress

feel more with it today...

he does seem to be responding to shush and pat or just holding his hand

you know all the things that CC says nto to do(ie no eye contact or physical contact etc) seem to reallt help ds2 to settle

so i am going with my gut instincts

I think that's fair enough. Babies are individuals after all. Your gut instincts are often right.

I am losing the energy for this. I feel more tired now than I did at the horrendous newborn stage

Tinker - i got the book today and thank you sooo much. It has so much food for thought. Have skim read it and have a plan for BOTH my boys:)

DS1 4 in august. Wakes between 5 and 6 each day - usually about 5 but more recently between 4:30 and 5 and knackered by mid afternoon.....

We went today t buy him a magic lamp which comes on when he is allowed to get up. If he stays in bed til the light comes on, the genie of the lamp leaves him a surprise....start off for first two days at the time he gets up...so set for 5 tomorow argh. Then put it back 15 minutes every few days. In tandem with this, we push back the time that he would naturally fall asleep every two days. Today he was shattered by 6pm but I sent him out into the garden to play and he lasted until 6:45. Must remember a genie of the lamp surprise!

DS2!!!!
Have decided that we need a two pronged approach with ds2. Not a quick fix but something that will last. So. Bought a night light as he settles better when it isnt pitch black. Strategy 1 is gradual retreat fror getting to sleep. I had already been doing something like this withouth realising. On an evening I had got to the stage where i occasionally stroked his back or just placed my hand on him and he went to sleep. Tonight, I lay ion the floor next to his cot. No physical contact. No shushing and he went to sleep. :):):):)
Part 2 is to have a night weaning plan. he is so reliant on night feeds to get back to sleep (I have been dreadful over the last few days...) that i am going to do something that I read where you gradually cut the length of night feeds in a structured way........I think out of all the methods this has the best potential to work.
Shushing and patting was working to a degree but after aroound 3:30 i had reached stalemate

the book is great - lots of good info about sleep patterns etc

thank you:)

Sounding positive Popsy. Keep at it. Sure it's encouraging to see even small improvements.
Come and visit us at the March thread. Haven't seen you there for ages.

Popsy, I haven't read any of your post for ages. I really, really sympathise that ds2 is still not letting you get enough sleep :(! CC also wouldn't work for ds and I also find all the things recommmended, like no eye contact, not picking him up etc. don't work.

One thing I do if ds wakes up or won't go to sleep is talk to him, cuddle him close to me and talk gently in his ear, telling him its time to sleep, mummy is still tired and wants to sleep, its not time to get up yet, I'm going to put you back to bed and not coming back until its time to get up etc... if it doesn't work the first time I leave him in his cot, pat and stroke his back and talk to him a bit more sternly, this seems to work quite well and works better than shushing him.

I really hope it doesn't come to giving him medication :(! Good luck!

popsy I know you said your DH is useless but

Mine woke every 90 minutes until she was 18 months

Then we decided to go ahead with night-weaning and DH would go in at night

The first night she was quite unhappy but lots of cuddles with daddy

The second night she was fine

She is 3.5 and still often wakes at night but only wants a sip of water or reassurance that we are still there (!) - we only ever just pop in and exchange a couple of reassuring words - it's nothing like the awful hours of night feeding

BUT it did require DH to be fully committed

BUT it only really took one night

HTH

small improvements......
Waking later for the first waking - more 11-11:30 than 10 ish...
second waking around 3:30-4ish....

but then quite unsettled after that
I am dropping his feeds by 1 minute tonight
he went to sleep with me in the open doorway tinght without any grumbling
I am also pushing his bedtime back a little bit with ds1 10 minutes a night......

Thinking of you Popsy. Sounding goood.

Popsy, I did seek medical advice about Dd2 when she was 1 and only sleeping 2 hours max a night.

I went to the appointment not knowing wether I wanted help for me or her or both.
I got offered vitamins and he offered to refer Dd to a psych which I couldn't for the life of me understand.
I went back literally 2 days later in tears and he perscribed Phenergan for Dd, and reffered me to a psych.

We used the phenergan for about 3 days and tbh it worked in the fact that she slept slightly longer but the second it wore off she was awake and bouncing off the walls again or screaming her head off. Dd would also be sick at least 4 times a night after the screaming.

We tried the phenergan again but after a week I stopped it because I felt she was becoming a bit of a zombie in the day, she'd just sit there and not play or anything.

My advice is to beg borrow or steal the money to go to a sleep clinic of have someone come to you.
I would have put myself in thousands of pounds worth of debt for someone to help and still would now if I needed to.

nutcracker - thanks for taking the time to post. It is something I have not written off btu I am feeling more in control of things,

things are improving ever so slowly but I think that is par for the course with him being 15 months and it being quite deep seated

he is settling on an evening with me at the open door now.....
is waking twice but is waking for the day early when ds1 wakes up

I really think sorting ds1;s early waking may be the key as mnost mornings he wakes ds2 and that sets the naps/bedtime for the rest of the day totally off kilter.....
reducing night feeds by 1 minute tnought

We've been refused help with Sam and his sleeping by the GP and Paediatrician, we are awaiting another appointment with paeds to BEG.

Sam hasn't really slept since he was a baby, and also when he wakes he has violent (scared ?) outbursts. he's a bit better now, but still a good night i six hours I guess . he yawns at school, and I feel terrible.

he is also As, btw.

We just get told we need to be firmer with him at bedtime.

Popsy - haven't posted on this thread but did on one of your others.

Glad that you are having some small successes. Stay positive. Ds2 was a terrible sleeper and I so remember just how desperate I was some days.

Sorry to walk in so late on this thread - my DD (4.5 yrs) was prescribed Vallergan Syrup (Alimemeazine Tartrate) because my DH talked to him - sure if it had been me I'd have been told it was my problem, not hers. We used only half the prescribed dose but she slept like a log. Trouble was, she seemed hung over the next day and it made her sensitive to sunlight. Worse: it didn't break the cycle. I don't recommend the meds route, but then we haven't cracked the sleeplessness. Possibly never will. I've just started a thread on it, as she's so much older.

Alimemazine Tartrate! can't spell!

Just an update as I know lots of you have given me advice.

DS1 - nothing has changed. He is waking up before the lamp. We have done everything by the book. Still waking usually before 5 - occasionally between 5 and half past. Bedtime time makes no difference. he is starting to want a nap in the afternoon again as he is in this cycle. TBH I am letting him occasionally as his behaviour becomes so unbearable if I don't.

DS2 - I am shattered. He was improving but has had a few really really rough nights. DS1 wakes him most mornings so he is having an early start which results in an early nap which reuslts in him needing to go to bed early. I have distracted him today so he hasnt napped until 11:20 so maybe it will have knock on effects for later.

to add to all of this, I am starting to feel really down. Work are being complete arses at the moment (pardon my French) and I feel like I am blowing everything out of proportion. The house is DREADFUL and while that doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things, it is gettign worse and worse and I don't know where to begin!

Oh dear Popsy Really wish I was in your part of the world. Feel like popping over to give you a hand. Even if it's just to help around the house so you feel you could concentrate on the boys.
Don't really know what else to suggest on the sleeping front. Are the boys in the same room? I have two friends whose boys wake between 5 and 5:30 every day and they've tried every trick in the book. Hate to say it, but he may just be an early riser who may not sleep later until he's older. Never heard of a teenage boy waking at 5:30 in the morning! But, yes that is a million years away!! Sorry that's probably not what you want to hear.
Is DS2 still waking through the night? Does the technique you were trying not seem to be working?

Hi Jambot!

I think ds1 is just an early riser. Need to think through a plan to get him to stay quietly in his room.....

DS2 - he will now go to sleep on an evening by himself with my standing in the open doorway...tonight it going to be the first night of me leaving and closing the door. I actually think he will be fine.
The thing with ds2 feeding.....I got to about a 5 minute feed and have reached stale mate. Then I get really shattered in the night and have sometimes just brought him into bed so I can doze on and off. I think he may be coming own with something as he has a really 'croupy' in the night.

I just don't have the energy to follow anything through properly right now.
The boys are not in the same room but ds2 is really unsettled and sleeps so lightly from abotu 4am that the slightest sound wakes him.

I really am at a loss as to what to do next

its popsy
cant be bothered to change my name back

nothing has changed
infact it is getting worse again due to me not being able to carry it through as i am knackered

last night they even went to bed much much later than normal as we had friends round...they were asleep for 8:40. ds2 woke 3 times in the night then was up for the day at 5:20. ds1 woke at 5:40

what on earth am i doing wrong
feeling pretty crap today