Carrots and sticks don't work. Please help me get 4yr old to stay in her own bed.

[notwoo]

situation is getting ridiculous. 4 yr old dd had never been a good sleeper and hasn't spent a full night alone in her bed for months.
She will usually go to sleep reasonably after a story and a cuddle but then trots into our room any time from 10pm wanting to come in our bed.
Tbh we have let her as have just wanted to do anything to maximise sleep but it's getting untenable.
She often comes in before we've gone to sleep ourselves, sometimes wants a chat or just fidgits around.
She's also recently stopped wearing pull ups at night so don't want any accidents in our bed.
Sometimes one of us will take her back and stay with her which is obviously less than ideal. We try sneaking back but she soon wakes again and returns!
We've tried reward charts but there's nothing she wants more than to come in our bed.
We've tried punishments (no tv, taking toys away, not going to a friends house, not wearing favourite clothes, no treats) but she'll put up with anything if it means she gets a cuddle in the night.

I know the answer is to keep taking her back and put up with crying etc but I know this will take a long long time and involve epic resistance and a lot of screaming and I have younger ds (plus neighbours) to consider. Plus the thought of having to repeat the process after any illness or holiday seems horrific.

Any ideas or experiences gratefully received.

I suppose you have to decide which way you want to go. Either let her come in or don't and then stick to it. Sometimes allowing it and sometimes not is the problem I think.

I know and it's exactly that-I swing wildly between the two depending on what sort of night we've had.

I think I need to stop her coming in but remaining calm and consistent in the night the face of repeated wakings is my issue. Which is why I've never taken the hard line taking her back technique because I worry I'll cave and all the upset will be for nothing

When I say I swing wildly I don't mean between letting her and not-that wouldn't be fair.
The default position is that she gets her cuddle but with varying degrees of bribery 'encouragement' to stay in her bed.
I've made a mess of it really. Wish I could have been stricter when she was younger but thought she'd grow out it (I guess she still might but the habit seems so entrenched now)

You've answered your own question in that case.

Could you sit her down, during the day, and tell her that from now on she is going to sleep in her own bed and not in yours. Draw a line in the sand for both of you. Then have a lovely cuddle-tastic cuddle as a part of your bedtime routine.

Cuddle
Bath
Story
Bed

I think you've got to decide to take the hard line, dear friends of mine were/are too 'nice' to do this and their children still come into their bed every single night - they are aged 8 & 10.

Interestingly the one night they slept through was the one and only time my friend has left them overnight.

DS was quite similar, he only started staying in his own bed once he moved from a toddler bed to a full size bed. Not sure if it was a coincidence or not, but prior to this he did sleep through the night in a full sized bed at his grandparents.

I know I know. She sleeps through when she stays at her Grandma's so I know it's possible!

I guess what I'm looking for is reassurance that a few (how many?) terrible nights will pay off.

And also, tips on how to keep my temper when she turns on the tears and wakes her brother / lashes out etc. I'm thinking industrial quantities of gin and chocolate?

DT. If only something so simple could stop it here! She is in a normal bed. She has a gro clock, a nightlight, wallpaper and duvet cover of her choosing, a favourite toy that she 'must' have to go to sleep, a drink of water and every conceivable other creature comfort!
All she wants is me. She would happily sleep on a bare floor as long as I was there. Aghh.

I told my 4yo I would lock my door and then I did. I would let her knock twice, sort out her issue and take her back to bed. Then the third time I would warn her and then ignore the howls and kicks at the door (unless it goes on for ages then I take her back to her bed without a word). She would go into the bathroom, take a couple of bath sheets and go to sleep on the floor outside my door with one as a sheet and the other as a blanket. I commented one morning stepping over her that she could always get her pillow and duvet and be more cosy. It took 5 nights for her to learn to go back to bed.

The exceptions are blood, sick, poo, wee and fire. She knows that off by heart now. She still knocks, it goes on up to 10pm but she sleeps in her bed and has done for a couple of months.

I will say I hated the knocking and my heart would be pounding. I'm sure she was lying on the floor kicking the door. I had to stop DH going to tell her off because the noise was winding us up. But once I'd told her the rules I had to go through with it, I always do as she's argumentative don't know where that comes from..! and I can't show any weakness!

I have considered locking the door but I think she'd either try to break the door down or do something so naughty we'd have to go out to her. Plus DS's room is right next to ours so he would suffer too.

We did have a minor victory last night in that she eventually took herself back to bed on the promise that I would go to her in a few minutes (I did - mug that I am).

At night, when you are tired and also worried about about other children waking, it's going to be hard to keep your resolve.

I would go at it like preparing for the broken nights a newborn would bring. Do some batch cooking, rest or sleep during the day when you can, call on family and friends to take the dc to the park or swimming to wear them out and so you can rest.

My friends 10 and 7 year old get up and into her bed every night. Every night. 10 years.

You say you worry about losing your temper but does it really hurt in the long run if your DD sees you cross and upset, you would shout if she ran in front of a car wouldn't you? I think you will have to 'toughen up'. effycat's method sounds good, don't engage with your DD, just take her straight back to bed. stop being so nice .

Presume you have tried all the usual bribes/sanctions etc - but do you always follow them through?

I have included in our night time routine a 5 minute lie down and cuddle/other concentrated attention. So she can talk about something or her mind or we just snuggle. I'll count down the time 'I'm only here another 2 minutes and then it's your sleep time'.

I think DD1 has problems switching off. Last week one of the knocks on my door (at 2245) was to ask about gills - fish breathing equipment. I'd read 'Tiddler' earlier and we'd been to the aquarium 3 weeks before but she'd linked it together and thought about it rather than sleep. That's when I started the 5 minutes lying in the dark. Sometimes it works.

That's funny about the gills elfy. Dd woke me up at 3 the other morning to ask if she could have her ears pierced (needless to say the answer was no).

We do the lying down thing after her story including the 'i'm going in 2 minutes / 1 minute / 10 seconds etc.' usually works ok and she'll go to sleep on her own after a while. It's the 10pm onwards wakings that are troublesome.

Ragwort - I'm not nice! I've said some horrible things to her in anger in the middle of the night which is why I've been worried about taking the hardline approach before now. Equally though if we could just get it sorted there would be no need for any nocturnal stressing!

I find sanctions for nighttime behaviour tricky as they're not immediate but yes have followed through with no tv or treats etc the next day without much impact.

She had a sticker chart to 'win' a special dress when she'd stayed in her bed for 20 nights (with smaller treats in between). It took her over 4 months! and as soon as she'd completed it we were back to normal.

Right. I'm doing this.

good luck. Isn't it a shame there isn't a one child fits all rule for everything.

If it helps I've read, and believe, that it is intelligent children that have problems switching off. Plus DD1 had problems toilet training, as she would not pay attention to her body's signals enough - too distracted by everything. She's not some super-genius (thank goodness) but pays attention to everything, has a million questions per hour but won't go to bed.

If your DD could switch her head off she'd relax and be asleep as her head hit the pillow

Stealth boast alert! so not real

It's so HARD having a bright child. Little Arabella-ella-Jane-Louise just can't stop asking me to explain Einstein's theory of Relativity in relation to the moon's stabilising effect on Planet Earth at 3 o'clock in the morning. It's sooooo tiring having to draw the equations....*

• not an actual quote. Or child's name. Or equation I could write out - or is it that E=MC squared thing? But all I see is MC and think 'Donalds.. ohh must do the drive through soon'.

I have no idea what the "right way" to handle this is, but my DD3 was exactly the same, and all I can say is it does improve eventually!
She's now almost 9 and has been sleeping all night in her sister's own bed for almost a year now!

Well it went fairly well:
She came in just after midnight having wet her bed so I sorted that out, gave her a nice cuddle and said that was it for the night and she had to stay by herself.
Obviously not a popular decision so I did the whole supernanny style thing of taking her back calmly without engaging.
It took just under an hour of repeatedly taking her back whilst she cried and screamed. All put on for my benefit as she was perfectly able to stop crying to ask questions at regular intervals.
Eventually, after I'd added shutting her door into the mix she gave up an asked me nicely to tuck her in which I did and amazingly she stayed there til morning.
Absolutely fine this morning. Seemed quite proud of herself for managing it.
And I kept my cool and ds managed to sleep through the commotion so all good.
Will be prepared for a rerun tonight!

I do think she has trouble switching off and he has a very active imagination. Love your stealth boast elfy!

I'm glad you had a good night after the initial faffing and that DS wasn't disturbed by it all.

DD1 is good at faffing and even 3 months down the path I got asked if she could come to my bed and then several knocks on the door for important things only I could do, like find a teddy which had probably been deliberately dropped. And one time to tuck her in seconds after I'd just done it as it hadn't been quite right I think it will be ongoing but I can live with that.

My next problem is the time she goes to bed. I've dragged it back from 2300 to 2200 and am trying to get it to 2130 but the later sunsets have thrown her bodyclock out. Solstice next week and then hopefully we'll sort it this autumn and she'll understand time better before next summer.

Another reasonably successful night. She came in at 11 and didn't settle until 12 but I only had to actually take her back about 8 times in that time.

The intervening time was spent with her shouting for me from her bed, then going quiet for 5 minutes then coming in to tell me she couldn't sleep. I do think she was trying and eventually managed to drop off until 6.

So had one of the best nights sleep I've had in a long time!

From my reading though it seems to be the 3rd night that really tests people so will try to stand firm.

I take it from your MN name that you don't want to hear about Bach rescue remedy for night or even worse the Indigo Gem essences in spray form, it's the 'Sleep Easy' one I'm thinking of...

I'm glad it's working, and you are getting sleep yourself. I'll confess I had DD1 in with me from 0100 as DD2 was awake/chatting/crying with her teething for a while even after all the medication went in and that woke my bed-hopper up. Her room is above DD2's and I know the sound comes up. But DD1 is in the habit of going to her bed now and I know she'll be fine(ish) to go to her bed tonight.

DH is back tonight and normally I let him have a good sleep for the first night or two. He doesn't sleep as well on-ship and does 1:4 on call. But tonight the kids are his as I have an exam tomorrow.

Good luck with night 3. You'll be fine as you know it'll work in the long run and think of all that lovely sleep over the next few weeks!

Haven't read everything you've tried, but what we do is this:

if ds comes into our room in the night he needs to bring his own duvet and lie on a little matress that is on the floor. (He never came in before we had gone to bed tho, only adter midnight). If he gets in our bed we put him back on matress.
He still comes in sometimes but doesn't wake us up now.

What we did was just make the rules really strict - you can come into our bed but we are sleeping and we can't sleep if you fidget, make noise or do other things (DS went through a phase of poking ears). It makes a differentiation between wanting/needing closeness and reassurance and just wanting attention as any non-sleep behaviour resulted in him having to go back to his own bed. He soon got the message and although there were a few tears on being returned to bed on occasion they really didn't last long and he seemed more annoyed than upset.

She was so good last night!
Came in to ask to be taken to the toilet at about 11, quick cuddle then straight back to sleep until half 3. Another quick cuddle and that was it until morning!
Am amazed!