sleep training rocking hell

[katiegolightly]

I'm battling with my almost 5mo. We're aiming for 3 naps a day and regular bedtime routine. As I've posted before, she has become hooked on being rocked / pushed in her pram to sleep - annoyingly, we are where we are!

The last few days we have tried and failed to get her to sleep without movement. With no bouncing (tried both PDPU and just holding her) she has cried through all of her day time naps (and missed them) and then fallen asleep on the boob at the 3.30pm feed (she doesn't normally nap after 3.30pm).

Tonight, again, we had bath, feed and bedtime and so far have had crying non stop for almost 2 hours. We have picked her up and held her but she will cry unless bounced vigorously. We have attempted to omit the bouncing entirely and held her with some shhh pat but she is crying like it's the end of the world.

I simply don't know how to remove this bouncing drug, she just cries and cries until the next feed and we start all over again. I just wish someone would convince me that this will work after x days because this just seems futile. We tried slowing it down, or just swaying, minimal movement but it's just not good enough. We have been very calm and patient with her in this so I don't think she's tense because we are.

It's not controlled crying (we're not leaving her without comforting her) but it feels like it knowing that the bouncing will stop the crying and not doing it and just holding her, because it's not what she wants and knows will get her to sleep.

Help.

Do you have to bounce her for long? My 1 yo used to only like being bounced to sleep but over the past month or so he has taken to a couple of mins of gentle rocking. We're not bothering with sleep training. He has just become more willing to relax into sleep and I don't know any adults that need to be rocked to sleep ;) we have always just followed his lead but tried to be consistent. He has improved of his own accord.

She is maybe a bit young to sleep by herself without bouncing? Is there any reason why you have to sleep train now, or could you wait another month and see if she can manage it then?

If your DD is overtired when trying for a nap / bedtime it will be so much harder. Maybe try for the first nap of the day as that tends to be the easiest one to get (at least it was for us). When she can settle for that maybe try for other naps?

I wouldn't worry that what you have done has caused this issue now. I bounced DD to sleep from the beginning as that was the only way she would settle. I kept trying with the self settling every week or so, until around 4mo she suddenly managed it. I always thought of self settling as something babies can manage when they are developmentally ready; sort of like learning a skill like crawling.

Big hugs to you for persisting - it must be so much work bouncing her to sleep now as she'll be getting heavy.

Not sure if this is helpful or not but I am still rocking my 9mo DD to sleep as it is the ONLY way she will sleep. I have tried everything except controlled crying and she just screams and screams and screams and screams...I have pretty much now accepted that she needs rocking and am hopeful that one day she will learn to self-settle!

I still try every few days to put her down sleepy but awake but I can count on my hand the number of times it has worked, and the rest of the time she worked herself up screaming and it then took half an hour to calm her down to sleep again. Impossible as I have 2yo DS to lOok after as well!

can you offer a feed to help her get to sleep? DS2 is almost the same age and will sometimes just have a wee feed and cuddle to drop off when he gets overtired.

Thanks both. She can go from screaming to silent with eyes shut in 5 bounces. When I stop, the crying starts immediately - it's almost comical how quickly she releases she's 'getting want she wants'. And I don't mean that in a manipulative way, I don't think she's old enough to be devious! I just believe that she is a creature of habit and quite understandably expects things to go as they always have and is battling to drift off without the bumpyness!

Perhaps a little young for 'severe' sleep training, I agree - I guess this is why we never leave the room or leave her alone and always trying to soothe/hold her in some way. I'm just keen that we trying and get her into self-soothing habits rather than waiting until she's much older and finding it really hard to break the bouncing. It wouldn't be so bad if I could sit and hold her still or even rock her in a chair to sleep but (a) she's getting really heavy and (b) I don't want to have to rely on walking around the block every night with the pram!

I'd just love to know there's an end in sight, exhausted. :(

sorry if I'm totally missing the point btw, it was just after you mentioned her falling asleep feeding later on. :)

It's now almost time for the next feed (still crying) and I'm reasonably sure that will probably send her off. I'm also trying to avoid the feeding to sleep but it's seeming inevitable at the moment.

Also, I guess I'm just at a loss - even if we were controlled crying, surely it's not typical for a baby to cry solidly for hours like this?? From what I've read it can take a week but perhaps I just haven't come across the posts of hours of non-stop crying... I don't understand why she hasn't totally wiped herself out

If the rocking works so well I'd just go with it, then you'll probably find things naturally change or are more easily changed in the future. I rocked 8 month old ds to sleep tonight. Ideally I'd love him to self settle but it only takes minutes to rock him so I can manage it, even though he's a big boy. You won't have to do it forever, I certainly don't rock my 4 year old to sleep!

Poor you! Reading your first post I am pretty sure I must have replied to your previous posts telling you that we managed to gradually reduce the vigour of the rocking til DD fell asleep lying in our arms... It sounds like you've been trying really hard

It is odd that she hasn't reached the point of passing out with exhaustion yet. I am not sure what to suggest, but I did want to offer you some sympathy. I too was really worried about DD getting too heavy. Something has to give at some point - in my case my wrist was quite shot and I was seeing a chiropractor because my shoulders neck and back were so unbelievably sore. As soon as we managed to stop rocking things began to ease up (though my wrist still won't let me do press-ups over a year later!)

I think if it were me, I would pick a small level of reduction of vigourousness (eg rock in chair really fast) and try to stick with that for a few days, no matter how long it takes. Easier said than done, but surely she can't keep it up forever. And whatever you do try to have iron-willed consistency. Also easier said than done.

Just wanted to add also that unlike a previous poster, in our case it was definitely easier to tackle bedtime first. Even now (18mo) I sit with her to get her down for nap, butshe has fallen asleep on her own at bedtime since 6 months.

Good luck!

ah i see. i don't have feeding times at all. DS2 would definitely cry if i made him wait to feed.

feeding to sleep is totally normal for babies this age. they will learn to go to sleep eventually. anecdotal i know, but i fed and cuddled DS1 to sleep for as long as he wanted it and he's never had a problem going to sleep by himself. (he's nearly 3 now and touch wood a good sleeper)

good luck!

how often do you feed her out of interest?

Thanks for the support fififrog, yes I think you did!

Ok, so feed done and she is now finally asleep - poor lamb, must be exhausted. She's so hot and bothered after all the crying :( Now summoning up the energy to tackle it all again tomorrow (once we've got through the night!!)

It's comforting to know I'm not alone, although I feel quite bereft that this bedtime battling could go on for another 6 months without respite. I'm also baffled that all my RL girlfriends seem to have absolutely no problems getting their babies down to sleep, how can this be?? Not to mention I can't ever see a day when I can leave her for an evening to go out, I couldn't imagine leaving her with anyone like this. Don't get me wrong - I'm not chomping at the bit for a night out, I just feel slightly trapped without sight of and ending.

When I've pushed her in the pram, I've wheeled her straight into the nursery and left her to sleep in buggy until the dreamfeed, when I've been able to put her back (asleep) into the cot. It is the only time I can get her into the cot. Transferring her from the buggy to the cot otherwise always wakes her and starts her crying, and if I rock her in my arms to sleep it's only 1 time in 10 that I can successfully put her down, so I'd more likely end up pinned to the sofa until the dreamfeed.

Uh.

Feeding is every 3 hours, occasionally 2.5 if I get cues. A typical day is usually something like 0630, 0930, 1230, 1530, 1800, 2200/2300 (half the time 0400). She feeds well (EBF) and it's very rare for her to get to the point where she will cry in hunger. She is over 50th centile.

centile doesn't really mean anything, it's just how big they are relative to other babies.

if DS2 was crying and nappy was ok etc, I'd automatically offer a feed, it'll help if he's hungry or tired. if he didn't want to feed I'd try walking/rocking.

i literally have no idea how often he feeds. i keep him in the living room with me till i go to bed and just watch tv etc with him either playing or feeding and dozing.

i find it less stressful than trying to make him go to bed earlier then be back and forth to him.

How old are your friend's babies?

hope that came across as trying to be helpful not cheeky. avoiding feeding to sleep sounds like a lot more hard work.

do you offer a feed if she is crying for hours?

Don't compare yourself to other mums, they have different babies! I'm now on dc2 and he is sooo different to dc1. It really makes me realise there was no point agonising 1st time round over whether I was doing the right thing with my daughter, she was an individual and I should have just got on with giving her what she needed rather than worrying. I know at the moment this phase must seem like it's going on forever, but when you look back it will seem like the blink of an eye. Just do whatever you have to do to get through it without hours on end of screaming. That's what I'd do anyway, good luck!

If she goes to sleep after 5 bounces, why not bounce her? Or am I missing something?

I would try offering a feed too - babies are designed to fall asleep on full tummies. I fed ds before daytime naps til he was about 1 and it meant getting him to sleep wherever we were was pretty easy.

tbh having read back your first sentence sums up our confusion. you are battling with a wee baby who just wants milk, cuddles and sleep.

you might want certain sleep and feed times, but if it's not what baby needs i guess that's what you're fighting.

I'm naturally lazy and find it easier to adjust my expectations.

i would also find it distressing hearing a few minutes of crying, let alone an hour or longer.

seeker - after 5 bounces she's zzzing, but the moment I slow or (very very slowly reducing the bouncing) and put her down she cries again, she likes the movement to get to sleep and stay asleep (at least until she's fast fast asleep).

Whilst I quite understand those who choose to feed on demand or keep their babies nearby through the evening, that is not the right choice for us. She is great at a lovely 12 hour sleep when she's been 'prammed' to sleep. I'm not convinced that she should spend the first 3 or 4 hours of bedtime in her pram (until the dream feed) though. Having done this, I know that she is not crying because she wants milk, she is crying because she loves the movement. I'm not trying to be a mean mummy, I'm trying to find a way to gently remove the sleep crutch and keep her happy with a 12 hour bedtime that I know she enjoys.

Happy to offer a feed if she needs it, but I prefer that for the most part she has a good feed rather than snacking. Whilst I understand it is there for comfort as well as food, in this instance I believe it would be replacing one crutch with another, she wants movement, not milk. When it's clear she wants a feed, yes - absolutely I will feed her, I would not let her cry in distress when she wants a feed.

Friends babies are all the same age - 4-5 months. Comparing is quite natural, and whilst we probably shouldn't, I'm sure we all do to some extent, keen to learn what techniques our friends use.

Yes jaggy, the crying is distressing. I'm keen to find a way to help her and calm her before she gets too heavy to bounce for an hour

Essentially, I know what she would like to get to sleep - I could fix it. But she's getting rather heavy and I'm really hoping for helpful suggestions of anything I may try that could work for her in gently removing the 'rocking crutch' other than 'keep doing it' - particularly for anyone who may have gone through the same and wants to share some ideas.

don't bounce/rock just feed is still what I'd take from that. you're choosing to listen to crying by not letting her feed it seems?

your posts are full of she should/i prefer/i want. fair enough if you don't want to feed on cue, but why listen to 2 hours crying because it's not feed time?
sorry if i sound grumpy, i just can't get my head round it.

do you never fancy something to eat or drink within 3 hours of your last meal?

on reading the posts above I'm glad I'm not the only person slightly confused by the situation, i think you could make life easier by being a bit more flexible.

DS2 feeds way more than every 3 hours I'd guess and i think based on a whole lot of posts on here that expecting 'a lovely 12 hours sleep' every night from a baby this age is v v v optimistic! :)

It doesn't sound at all to me like OP is 'choosing' to let her baby cry rather than feed. Baby is crying because she's tired and can't work out how to put herself to sleep without the bouncing, which sounds truly wearing. I'd wager that if a feed was offered she wouldn't take it anyway.

No ideas sorry, OP, just moral support! It's quite a shock to find out that falling asleep isn't something that just happens. Mine isn't easy to get to sleep and then stay asleep either and is about the same age. I also read somewhere on here that people will often fib or grossly exaggerate about their babies' sleeping habits to friends and family to either appear as though they've got it all under control or to avoid a subject that's driving them spare. Maybe your RL girlfriends are also on here with raging non-sleepers desperately seeking answers under a nice anonymous pseudonym?

She's hungry. You are doing it to your own timetable and not to hers which is why you are having problems. 5 months is way too young to be trying to implement this routine imvho, no wonder shes crying! Poor kid .

It is incredibly unusual for a 4/5 month old to sleep for 12 hours!

I think the key is the first line of your OP "I'm battling with my almost 5 month old"

If it's a battle don't do it. She will be a different person with different needs in a month's time- even 2 weeks time. If you give her what she wants now, everything will be calmer and happier and less stressed. She's still very young- don't spoil this precious time with "shoulds". Do whatever makes her happy.