Such awful awful nights

[celandine]

DS2 is 8 weeks, bf and is very unsettled at night leaving me knackered each day and in tears with him each night.

Last night he fed at 9pm, 11.30-1am, stayed awake til 2am, fed at 3.30 - 4.30, 5.30, 6 and 7am. He often does a good stretch between 9pm and 1am but then it all goes downhill and I can't seem to settle him after his feeds. He will feed both sides, and then his eyes pop open and he will root for more. He won't take a dummy. We both end up crying and I feel at a loss of what to do to get him back to sleep after his feeds. He ends up in bed with me but it doesn't make him go to sleep any more.

I just cannot go on like this as am averaging 5 hours a night with a 2.7 year old to look after too.

Any advice?

Hello again
Was just thinking about your post and wanted to add what I was told about milk quality at night. Apparently the hormone that helps you produce milk activeates at night and so night milk is the 'Jersey Cream' of breast milk and even having one little milk feed at night can help keep your milk supply up for the day so at least you've got that to be glad for if you can get DS down to one feed per night. Maybe if you choose try to try and get him to go longer stretches at night between feeds (5 hours max) by cuddles, dummys etc he will feed more in the day and break the cycle.

I've only got one little 10 month old so I dont know what life is like with a baby and toddler, but I can imagine it's very busy! Maybe DS2 is waking up for the better quality milk if you are busy and tired in the day and maybe he doesn't feed so well or as often with the distractions of the day and his big brother. Another possitive thing (again if you can get it down to oneish night feed) is that at you can have some one on one time with DS2 and shower him in as much affection as you want because there is no DS1 one there to get jealous.

Another long post - sorry!!!

last night ds did:

sleep 9.30 - 12.30am, feed 40mins, rocked in chair 10 mins, sleep 1.30 - 4.30 (hoorah, he settled back down!), fed 40 mins, rocked in chair 10 mins, thought i'd cracked it but then he stirred 5 mins after being put into moses basket. Uunsettled and co-sleeping/feeding on and off til 6.15am when we got up cos ds1 awake. an improvement but still feel knackered and fed up.

Am tonight going to try co-sleeping all night as he hasn't settled in his basket. Will to try to feed him before he wakes properly. No swaddle in bed though so it might be a disaster. He also had jabs today so could be disruptive anyway. Wish me luck!

Btw, i eat LOADS so no worries in milk supply there

celandine, I would so do what you are doing and co-sleep. Worry about the potential consequences later. I am co-sleeping with mine every night; I know it may be bad but I just can't bring myself to care. Whatever it takes to get some sleep! Best of luck to you xx

You have my every sympathy. Have an 8 month old with erratic sleeping patterns to say the least. He varies between waking once a night to every hour on a bad night. We have found The Sleep Book for Tired Parents by Rebecca Huntley very helpful. Several suggestions and lots of practical advice, helps you sort out what is really going on. Try to think about things during the day when it is slightly less frantic rather than during the night as everything feels far worse at 3 in the morning.
Also, it may not feel like it but 8 weeks is still early days.I know that I found myself expecting number 2 to do things far more quickly than he should have been doing them. I think that comes from having to deal with two rather than one. The other thing that we have found helpful is to make a plan and set some boundaries when slightly awake and then make ourselves stick to them during the night.

Don't know if any of this will help but it's worth a try.

flump 30 xx

Sorry forgot to add that we also found comforter helpful but he may have been slightly older when we tried that. Slept in bed with it for a few nights so it smelt of me.

celandine, have you tried a dreamfeed around 10.30/11pm? You may find this breaks up his sleep patterns so he takes his biggest slug of sleep from then onwards, rather than in the first half of the night.
I hope the cosleeping works for you. Both of mine were very light sleepers (as am I) so this never worked for us but I know many MNers swear by it

well, that was NOT enjoyable. I must have fed him little bits about 20 times as he stirred so much. Rather than the usual 3-4 hour first stretch, he woke at just 11.15 and it was all night boob in mouth from then on in order to get him back to sleep. It was also very uncomfotable to lie on my left side all night (feeding both boobs from that side, leaning over from the opposite side for right boob, as i can't feed lying on my right) so I was aching, uncomfortable, awkwardly trying to latch him on which I never felt i could, and again tearful and yearning for the morning at 4am. I didnt have a clue when 'morning' should be but just got fed up with it all by 6.15am so decided to get up now and bring laptop into bed - bliss

BUT - ds did sleep more i think, although it was much more little stretches, and maybe i did too, although again maybe many little stretches. He was still more restless around 4am onwards as usual though, maybe this is just his bodyclock for now.

How is co-sleeping meant to work? Does what I'm doing sound right? Stick a nipple in their mouth whenever they stir? He was actually sick this morning from, I guess, me feeding him so much during the night.

Bakedpotato, i have thought about feeding later but I really am worried about staying awake until nearly 11pm in case i don't get much rest after. He's always restless after 4am and feeding on and off til 7am. It is worth a try though and i may try it soon. What time shoud i aim to put him to bed initially? Does 8pm sound about right?

Thanks again for all these supportive replies, they really are making me consider different things.

Oh dear, that doesn't sound very good. You poor tired thing! It might be worth continuing for a bit to see if this is just a transition stage? However I have found co-sleeping with an older child is a compromise, not a solution, personally. I don't really get that much sleep each night, but it does seem to be the lesser of all evils, for us at least, and perhaps for you wehn you get accustomed to it and don't wake up evry time he squeaks.

Celandine, what next? Will you try cosleeping again tonight?
If you think not, it might be worth considering going to the other extreme and putting DS in the next room if it's at all possible (DD was in the bathroom from about 8 wks, DS from earlier from that ). You may find that some of his noises don't indicate hunger or wakefulness but just a change in sleep cycle as he goes from a light sleep stage to a deep one.
And if you're not hearing every snort or fart, and he's not hearing you rolling over, you may see a difference.
Dreamfeeds, yes they sound counterintuitive. But I think it's Ferber who says that from very early on babies are capable, even need, one biggish stretch of uninterrupted sleep and you can manipulate the timing of this. (Worth looking at Ferber, he's great on how babies sleep.)
So, if he's used to sleeping 9-11.30 (as in the OP), if you wake him at 10.30 you're waking him from a deep sleep and he will be more inclined to zonk out after that feed.
If you can manage to express, give it then as a topup after a b/f. (This is the time at which I started to give some formula. I kept b/f till 8 mths, but this bottle helped me regain my sanity so I have no regrets.)
People's attitudes to sleep and new babies varies so much. I really believe you have to work out what you can cope with. (I am less robust than many MNers.)

As for bedtime, I think the rule of thumb is to put him to bed 12 hrs after he got up to start the day, providing he hasn't had too much daytime sleep

bakedpotato, thanks for your reply. i shan't co-sleep again tonight, it really felt much worse as we had so many more mini-wakings. Putting him in another room is a last option as I need to feed somewhere with a pillow to rest on my right as i rugby-ball feed himon that side, so only in bed or sofa. When he wakes at night I realy do ignore initial snuffles and grunts, of which there can be many as he strains to break free of his swaddle . But more often than not they develop into proper 'pick me up NOW' cries and then i go to him.

So as he was up at 6.15 tis morning I should put him down by 7 max tonight? It seems so scarey to do that in case he has his two good stretches before 2am, bu i do agree i should try it. Anything is worth a try.

The formula top-up is sooo tempting but as we have eczema and asthma in our family i am hoping to be exclusively bf for as long as possible. I am curious to know what effect it would have though (especially as DH could do the dreamfeed! We'll see.

Well, if 7pm is a full 2 hrs before his usual bedtime, maybe aim for it over a week or so. Maybe bring his bedtime forward by 15 mins every night for a while. The aim is to get him to do a 12-hr night.
OK, one other thing, tell me the times/lengths of naps in the day, if there's a pattern? Where does he sleep?
Did I imagine it, or did you mention that he doesn't fuss when put down in the day and his naps are pretty solid? If so, good indicators for getting him to sleep better at night.
Quite take your point re formula. Do think about the expressing then. It will give you more confidence that he has filled his tanks. And feed like a maniac, as much as you possibly can during the day. Wake him for feeds. Try to feed him at least every 3 hrs in the day.
You can still feed him in your bed if he's sleeping in another room. Grab, feed, return.

bakedpotato, he has no daytime routine yet. it entirely depends on what we're up to. Usually he has lots of powernaps of 10 - 45 mins. Sometimes he has a big 2 hour sleep during the day, though I won't let this happen too late or I wake him. I have absolutely no idea of how long he will sleep for, though am usually surprised if he goes longer than 45 minutes.

He gets cranky around 1hr15 mins after waking. He falls asleep only by two means: main one is in sling when whingey and then put down into pram when asleep; second one is being rocked gently in pram for a few minutes when he's tired and crying. Occasionally he falls asleep in his vibrating bouncer by himself. I haven't ever put him into his moses basket for a daytime sleep, and he isn't swaddled durint the day either. I don't let him go longer than 3.5 hours between feeds so wake him then if needed.

I would love to express to give a bottle but I really have no time and no spare milk I think, as he feeds every 2hours for 40 minutes during the day from both sides! I can't feed him any more I think.

Tonight's plan - ds fed at 7.30pm, bed at 8.30pm. I will feed him again at 9.30 dreamfeed as I'm too knackered to stay awake any later. Will go to bed soon and report tomorrow

Hi. Haven't had time to read all the messages,but wanted to add my bit. I would say don't get too hung up on what people, including yourself, EXPECT a baby's sleep pattern to be. Obviously it would be superb if your DS slept 12 hours through the night...God only knows how much we've all wished for this but when it doesn't happen it makes it so much harder to deal with when it is against expectations of what babies are supposed to do. Does that make sense?
My DD2 was a huge shock to the system. After having 2 babies who slept through 7 - 7 every night froma few weeks old I assumed this one would be the same. Was I in for a shock! She woke up in the night anything up to 20 times on the worst nights...good nights would be 6 times. I cried and I ranted at DH until I realised there wasn't a lot I could do to force her to sleep. SO...I took her into bed with me and fed her as and when she wanted and that way we both managed to get more sleep. I stopped telling people she didn't sleep, or if I did I made a joke of it. I stopped trying to be superwoman as I couldn't do all the housework AND study AND cope with sleepless nights. Basically I just took a stepback and allowed nature to take it's course. Now, at 18 months (and only just) she sleeps through the night...8ish to 5.30am and then quick bf and then until 7.30.
I'mnot sure if this is helping at all,but changing my attitude to it all really helped me cope. It doesn't last forever. Just go with the flow for your own sanity!

Hi
Haven't done this b4 so bear with me. Have pretty much read all the messages although fell asleep half way through, on second wind now!!
Really feel for you as I know how hard it is to function on lack of sleep. Crazy woman why am I still up!! Fortunately mine sleeps through pretty much (6mths old)
Just a thought but it sounds as though little one doesn't really settle in the moses basket?
I also did a massage course with the local clinic with my DD, maybe this would help?
Would defo agree with the bedtime routine. If there is one thing I have learnt with my DS1 it is that children are creatures of habit and like their routine!
I wish you luck and keep your chin up, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.
xx

Forgot to mention, you could try 'dream feeding' him. Saw this on a telly programme and no of some people who this works for. Work out when he usually wakes yup for his first night feed and go and feed him before he wakes up for it. This should mean that he'll sleep longer as he won't wake up from hunger so soon. If he's used to getting expressed milk through a bottle, you could maybe get your other half to go and do it so you get a nice long sleep streach!

Celandine, I really feel for you! I had similar experiences with my dd who is now 24 weeks old. In the end I gave up bf for my own sake when she was 15 weeks. She cluster fed non-stop from 4pm to anytime up to 2am every night. She didn't sleep during the day unless she fell asleep feeding. I spoke to a bf counsellor who explained about expressing to gather hindmilk which has high levels of oxytocin (makes baby sleepy). Tried expressing during the day to top her up at night, but was knackered with either constant feeding or expressing. Introduced a formula feed in the evening at 3 weeks (didn't affect milk supply at all) and this definately helped.

Eventually it got to the stage where she couldn't fall asleep on her own and she would jerk awake as soon as she was put in her crib. I tried co-sleeping which dd loved, but I didn't sleep as was contorted into uncomfortable positions, also it was no good for her daytime naps.

HV suggested controlled crying which we tried and it was absolutely awful - I cried as much as she did. In the end I made the decision to go fully over to formula, it was not an easy decision and I know you mentioned ezcema/asthma in your family... But it was getting to the stage where I couldn't function and dd was definately picking up on my unhappiness, I was hating motherhood and I thought that was such a shame for all of us. I won't say it solved all the problems, we still had some work to do teaching her to go to sleep on her own but it's made such a big difference.

I found reading the books (baby whisperer etc) made me feel like a totally inadequate mum, like I'd done everything wrong. We also tried cranio-sacral therapy (similar to cranio osteopathy) and it didn't seem to make anything better.

Unfortunately every baby and mum are different, you have to find what works for you! I would say try anything you think might work. Hope it gets easier soon.

Celandine, I'm not an expert but just an experience to report: I had a ridiculously overflowing milk supply, far too much (in fact the leaking was a nightmare but that's another story), and never once have I swapped breasts mid-feed or had an empty breast. DS (coincidentally or not) has always been a good sleeper. My friend who had a baby at the same time had less milk and had a situation very like yours. The formula dreamfeed at 11pm-ish worked for her DS. He just wasn't getting quite enough milk from her and that's why he was always wanting more through the night. It may not be this, but I think it's worth a try - of course you want to BF and you're right to, but if I was as tired as you I'd have done it. And if it doesn't work you'll know it's not that and can go back to all-BF.

I don't know about the effects as regards interfering with your milk production - maybe you could start the dreamfeed with BF and top up with formula? (Correct me anyone if that's a terrible idea )

I don't know if any of the following helps but we used a bear that makes the noise of the womb with our DD2 after having a nightmare sleeper 1st time (I think we did everything your warned not to). DD2 is now 5 months old and has responded well to routine (bath, massage, cuddle) , bed by 7, dream feed of formula at 10ish (has coped really well with mixed feeding), the noise from the bear to signal sleep. I haven't co slept as DD1 is 7 and still arrives in our bed at night. DD2 did try to wake every hour to feed for a while once hit 3 months but found sorting day sleeps and patting her tummy to help her back to sleep to the rhythm of the bear if waking before feed due has settled thing back to 2 brief night feeds. I think when tiredness takes over rope friends and family in to give you a bit of peace. They are probably all desperate for a chance to help by taking your children out for a walk even if it just your older child. I really hope things settle down soon for you.

Just a thought about the formula, if you do decide to give 1 formula feed - you can get formula goat milk (think it is called nanny goat or sthg like that) I think it is meant to be better for allergies. You could then express at the same time to keep up your supply?

Another thought was if you have loads of milk, you could also try expressing and giving an extra few ounces with the last b/f when you put dd down. My hv advised this but my dd will not take bottle or cup despite trying every single one on the market. Thinking if starting a bottle and teat museum!

If you can bear to do it, try and give up the pushing and rocking now if you can, as once they get used to getting to sleep that way its very difficult to get them off it. I have switched one crutch for another (dummy) but seems to be working so far, will worry about weaning her off that later

Hiya,

I havn't had time to read all the replies, so apologies if i am repeating something, but I do think that you should allow your dh to help. I had similar probs with my dd. Only sharing the load got me through it.
I ended up bottle feeding. (yes, I can hear all the gasps!) I got sleep at the weekend. yes, I did hear baby crying but as I realised my dh was more than competent the knots in my tummy unwound and I did get a break.
My dd thrived and my dh was delighted to be involved. They had a great relationship right from the start.

Why does everyone expect new mums to be martyrs?

Good luck xxx

Dear Celandine,
I know it's hard and others have said it and it's true - it will get easier and won't last forever.

Anyway, here's my experience with my DS who is 4 mnths now. He has never slept well and does not sleep much in the day but is healthy happy baby. Up until 3 mnths he was exclusively BF. I have recently started supplementing with a bottle of formula in the evenings and since then he sleeps much better - from 8pm until 6am waking only once around 3am.

I still BF early evening (6 or 7ish) and then give the bottle. I dream feed him at 11pm and BF once during the night if he wakes up.

I was also worried about starting him on formula but it has been great for us. I am still BF as well and just give the bottle in addition. It means I have some time to sleep and relax as well.
hope this helps

thanks again for lots of great replies. I've put ds down to bed now, which is the earliest he's ever gone. It's nice to have evenings back though I'd love to be in bed now really, but am feeding him later.

Saturday night I dreamfed at 9.45 and he woke at 2.30 and 5.15 which is amazing. However, this was tainted with the usual problem of him not settling back down again, so I was up until 4am, then he came into bed with me after his 5.15 feed as again he wouldn't settle, then he snacked til morning. Last night I did the same routine and he woke at 1.15, fed for almost an hour because at the end he was squirming and really grinding away at my breast as if he just wanted more and mor and his eyes popped open wide so then I had to rock him for 20 mins to get him drowsy enough to put down. So again, awake for almost 2 hours with a waking for food not long after. 4/5am til morning is ALWAYS unsettled stll so he comes into bed with me but I get little sleep here as he wants to suck on me and it takes ages for him to go to sleep for more than 5 minutes and also tricky to get him to stay on the nipple cos of the awkward angle. The past 2 nights I've had 4-5 hours sleep again and am very tired.

Some great suggestions and supportive messages. Snowleapard, I think like your friend I have a minimal supply. Every feed takes ages and he needs both sides and still wants feeding every 2 hours.

Anyway, I've made a decicion to try a top-up of formula tonight. This is based on the premise that my milk supply is not high enough to satisfy ds to knock him out back to sleep. Even if he still doesn't settle back well after bf during the night at least I will be able to get more sleep if dh does the late feed (though I'll try it tonight) I;m very worried that he'll not take a bottle but I'll soon find out...

I'd much rather give expressed milk but i tried and hardly got any out and I simply do not have the time to create a whole extra bottle of milk each day.

Will report back tomorrow....

Louly, he does sleep ok in his moses basket for the first night stretch so I'm sure it's ok for him.

As you may know, if you do have problems getting him to take a bottle, a lot of people recommend the NUK teat which most babies seem to like even if they refuse others.

Good luck!