Such awful awful nights

[celandine]

DS2 is 8 weeks, bf and is very unsettled at night leaving me knackered each day and in tears with him each night.

Last night he fed at 9pm, 11.30-1am, stayed awake til 2am, fed at 3.30 - 4.30, 5.30, 6 and 7am. He often does a good stretch between 9pm and 1am but then it all goes downhill and I can't seem to settle him after his feeds. He will feed both sides, and then his eyes pop open and he will root for more. He won't take a dummy. We both end up crying and I feel at a loss of what to do to get him back to sleep after his feeds. He ends up in bed with me but it doesn't make him go to sleep any more.

I just cannot go on like this as am averaging 5 hours a night with a 2.7 year old to look after too.

Any advice?

oh - just another thought - again I'm sure you've already thought of this - maybe worth thinking re your diet as you are breastfeeding. A friend of mine had inordinate probs with her baby not sleeping and it turned out was allegic to dairy in the mum's diet - other things which can aggravate are caffeine - and chocolate. My DS gets in v bad mood & will not sleep when I have chocolate - it contains something which is v like caffeine. (theobromide/ine - something like that...)

Hi there

My baby (now nearly 6 months) is a very alert baby and simply didn't sleep at all, a friend recommended the "baby whisperer" book, I was dead against all of these strict regimes but this approach is different. She recommends observing your baby for 3 days straight - write everything down so that you can look at it objectively and you may find the answer - write down, feed times, awake times, sleep times, nappies - everything.
The book also has a whole chapter on sleep training - the kind way, no leaving them to cry - you will need lots of patience, it could be that he's wanting comfort rather than milk at night and you need to teach him to self soothe.
Finally - what really clicked everything into place for us, was that if he is waking in the night due to hunger, get more food into him during the day - offer him feeds every 2 1/2 to 3 hours, even if he's asleep- wake him up!

Also DS is now on the EASY routine where they follow a cycle of Eat, Activity (awake time), Sleep, Y stands for You time!follow this cycle all through the day - that way you are seperating hunger and tiredness times so that when he cries you can eliminate either one.
Babies can only stay awake for approx 2 hours during the day and then need a nap, so I spent a week of after every awake period of two hours, swaddling, sitting and putting down for a nap. If hes well rested during the day and has the right balance of awake and sleep times he should be ready for a good nightime stretch.
I know this structure may seem a little overwhelming, but IT WORKS. Good luck and hope this helps

wongy x

I'm sure most of us can symapthise with the lack of sleep...dd was a nightmare to start with, I was bf but got infections and gave up, not my first choice bt I was not getting any better and trying to feed whilst shivering uncontrollably all night was no fun at all. Everyone kept saying it's oly the first 12 weeks, but that doesn't help much in the middle of the night. DDs sleep didn't improve after moving to formula, she wouldn't sleep at all at night unless she could sleep on top of one of us so I moved to spare room so DH could get some sleep before going to work (the worst night had to be constant crying from 9 - 4am and DS (5)waking up as he was getting disturbed.

We tried the 5s's after my midwife recommended it and I can't tell you what a miracle it was...it's swaddling plus and is amazing. I waited to start it until a night when DH was away for work so there was no disaster if it didn't work and she went from 10-3 and then 4-7 in her own cot on her back instantly! It's all explained in the book Baby Bliss or The happiest Baby on the block by Harvey Karp (it's the same book but has been republished a different name), it's great and makes lots of sense. I was like you and didn't think that strict routine was something I wanted or would work with DS as well, but this is about routine its more about how to settle when you need it. DD is now 6 weeks and sleeps through every other night and at worse goes from 10-4, it makes such a difference and I never thought that we would get there at all, and certainly not this soon...

Good luck

sparkle hes been weaned he is already on solids its just one of those things that i will have to put up with but i no it will get better

I completely agree with Wongy. I wrote everything down for a week and was able to spot my ds own mini routine. It helped me organise my own 3 hourly feeding pattern.

Also cluster feeding at night is a great way of tanking them up for the night.

I would really recommend Tracy Hoggs 'The baby whisperer'. Great advice especially for mums who have other children as she is a huge believer in a baby fitting into the family's own routine. Def worth a read.

Is he long enough on the 1st breast to get hind milk??? My DS was like this and I found putting him back on the same breast if feeding within 2 hrs helped.
A bottle of formula at 10 didn't work for us but I know some who swear by it.
How about trying to express during the day to up yr supply ???
If he is gaining weight well then you may not need to feed him every hr when he wakes-get dp to try and walk him/pat him down instead-even if he needs to take a day off work or two just so you get some rest and strength bbac to carry on BF. Also good diet very important -houmous saved my life when Ididnt have time for a proper meal. Is there anyone who could give you a break in the day by taking the baby for a walk???? Remember yr supply is helped by proper rest and nourishment so call for all the help you can get -hope it gets better...

We had similar issues with our DS, our solution was SwaddleMes, worked a charm. He was obviously well fed, just needed comforting, the swaddlemes made him feel safe and secure, although he hated having his arms tucked in when we put it on him.

Then I would rock him to sleep while sitting on his moses basket mattress (to warm it up) before putting both him and mattress into the basket. He would then sleep from around 10-11p.m. until 7 or 8 in the morning.

If he was being fractious I'd hold him on his Moses basket mattress while rocking him to sleep before putting him down.

We also moved to last feed being Formula at about 10 weeks, which I'd give him late, so that Mum could go to bed earlier...

Now he's teething (quite badly) so we are back to waking in the night to put gel on - bit of a culture shock - though he is going down at 7-8 p.m. now, and in his own room (7 months old now)....

BTW I'm Daddy, so apologies for butting in....

Hi
Celadine, I know how you feel. My dd is 28 weeks old. She has never slept well. During the day she power-naps having 2 or 3 20 mins each time. At bedtime she has a routine (bath, feed, story) and I leave her in her cot to get herself to sleep. Sometimes she does this straight away sometimes it takes her around 15 mins but she eventually does it. But I know that from then on it is downhill all the way. A good night for me is if she can sleep through till 11pm. Most nights she'll be asleep by 7:30pm then will wake at 8:45pm. It will take me anything from 30 to 90 mins to get her back to sleep. Then she only sleeps for one hour and it is the same 'routine' every night. I have seen the dr, HV, and now a cranial osteopath. DD hasn't improved much but seems a bit more willing to stay in her cot awake during the night before bawling her head off!!! next week will be our third visit and I am really pinning all my hopes on this. I weaned dd early as she is a hungry baby (I bf her). I have tried all sorts of things -lavender oil, propping her cot up at one end, gro-bag, classical music... she just will not stay asleep. I returned to work after mat. leave at the end of January but am now off for a few weeks with exhaustion.

I would certainly recommend trying cranial osteopathy.

Celandine,

I completely understand what you are going through as my DD was very hard to settle in those early weeks. I agree with FrannieandZooey, cosleeping worked really well for us too because it meant that I didn't need to move DD at all, I manoevred myself to the right position & she would feed without waking properly. I didn't dare pick her up to wind her as that would've defeated the purpose. As a result I got much more rest & even managed to doze a bit during some of the feeds! I tried it upon my health visitor's recommendation & the situation improved very quickly. By the time my DD reached 14 wks she was sleeping so much better that we moved her into her cot, still waking up for night feedings of course, but she was settling so much better afterwards thankfully. Might be worth trying it with your DS?

Don't feel bad about giving him some formula as it's difficult to express enough milk when you're having to feed him so regularly & so exhausted with it. I'm sure you have enough to do with a 2 yr old to look after too!

Get your DH to help out a lot more at the weekends, it'll make such a difference to you (& he'll catch up on his sleep during the week when he's sleeping downstairs).

As everyone says it will pass & you have to keep saying that to yourself to get through this difficult time and I know it's hard as you're so exhausted but it will get better.

I hope that it gets better for you very soon. Good luck

Hi Celandine

I know exactly how you feel and went through exactly the same thing with my lo.

There were several things that I did that turned everything around and made him sleep better through the night. Some of the things, are frowned apon in books but it worked for me and I never looked back afterwards.

I know that every baby and mum is different and that not everything that worked for me will work for somebody else but it may be worth a try.

1. Get him into a bedtime routine before putting him down, I found that bath, massage and then bottle helped him to settle and I am sure that as soon as this routine started he knew it was time to wind down.

2. Swaddle him, this is fantastic for getting small babies to sleep as they unfortunatly wake themselves up with their jerky movements. I also slept with the sheet the night before so that it had my smell on it, and so he felt like I was giving him big cuddles.

3. This is the bit that not everybody agrees with but control crying. I'm not talking about letting your lo scream for hours on end, but going in every 10 minutes. I did not pick my lo up but just laid my hand on his chest and spoke softly to him to reasure that he knew I was there. This took 2 nights and only 1 hour each time to get him used to falling asleep on his own without me rocking him to sleep.

I really hope that eveything settles down soon for you. Maybe you could leave your lo for just a couple of hours and go and get a well deserved facial or massage!!

Good luck

Hi

I am so sorry to hear that you are having these troubles, I had very similar with my 1st, she never slept more than 2 hours day or night till she was 2 years old! When she did fall asleep I would put her down and she would wake straight back up! In the evenings she would feed from 6 pm till 1am!

The best thing that I did was to just accept her sleep pattern or lack of it and I brought her into our bed at about 7 weeks, taking the proper co-sleeping precautions. It was a godsend. It saved my sanity and stopped the whole family from going crazy. Once I accepted the fact that she was in our bed, we all slept a lot more and life became a lot more pleasant.

If you are worried about not being able to get your little one out of bed when the time comes I didnt have a problem and have done the same thing twice now. Each time my children have asked to go into their own beds when they have felt that the time was right for them and they have never come back.

Co-sleeping really can be the saving of everyones sanity especially if you have a "high needs" baby ie a baby who wants lots of physical contact and closeness. You might be interested in looking at:-

www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T071000.asp

www.askdrsears.com/html/7/T070900.asp

These are written by an american pediatrician and his wife, a midwife. They had 8 children of their own and to me that makes them experts! They have some fantastic advice about co-sleeping and high needs babies.

I hope that you find these articles of use, they helped me no end.

Best wishes and I hope that things get better soon.

Elvina

hi just to add to Elvina's message the couple she mentioned bought out a good book called the no cry sleep solution by Elizabeth Pantley and William Sears. I too have had 'sleep problems' and have to say that I am trying to just go with my instincts. I've had advice of all types on how to achieve a good nights sleep, and we've tried too many to mention. My son wakes up automatically after about 15 minutes and panics if he hasn't got any contact with me or my partner, and a way of working with this has been to attach a bedside cot to our bed. I settle him down with a bath and a feed we put on some classical music (although he also liked jazz!) and his night light and he's found it very soothing. We tried massage but he wasn't too keen, and then I get a good book and settle down within view so that when he gets a night terror he sees me and is reassured he's not alone and will go back to sleep. I tried sneaking off to watch tv one night and heard a dreadful thump as he crawled off the bed in an automatic pilot mode to find mummy. if I do that again I'll put cushions down... one vital thing I've found is fresh air during the day and some proper exercise. It helps to reset their internal clock. Just remember whatever anyone says if it works for you it's the right thing. Just breath in and out and tell yourself that everything will be fine and one day it will be. with best wishes
kitchimama

This thread has helped me so much today. I also have 8 week old ds, luckily he is generally a good sleeper at night. Usually just waking twice for feeds and dropping back off. Last night though he was awake and distressed til 1.30am. I was in tears and dreading how I would get up to get my other 2 to school.
I am desperately tired today and can only imagine how tough it is to handle this on a night to night basis. There are so many great tips on here, think I've forgotten everything from my last baby

Do you or could you sleep in the daytime? Only way to get through this phase IMO.

Hi, firstly let me offer my sympathies, my 2nd and 3rd babies (3rd one so far... he's 7mths) were great but my 1st used to wake a lot in the night and your posting certainly brought some memories back!

I definitely agree with mollymilkmaid's 3rd point in particular - this which worked for me too - the combination of your smell and being taught that "it's ok - mummy isn't far and will come but unfortunately not everytime you cry..."

I made sure that whenever I put DS down for a sleep - he was sleeping either near or on something which had my smell, even if it was my nursing bra or nightshirt. The fact that it smelt as if I was next to him comforted him.

I used to slip my nightshirt over the top of his mattress and lay him on that, or I'd hand express some breast milk onto a sheet and let it dry first. Then when he was either swaddled or (bit older) in his grobag he was a lot happier.

If you do decide to give a bottle, it's best to make sure it is only the one and at the same feed each night, this way it won't have much effect on your milk supply.

If you start giving bottles at different times it may 1) confuse baby and baby might prefer the bottle (happened with my 2nd) and 2) before you know it, you will soon be bottle feeding your baby not breastfeeding.

My 3rd DS used to cluster feed for 15 mins per time at 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 11pm then he'd go until 5am then wake at 7.30am and the daytime routine would start. At 9pm he'd go from breast1 to breast2 back onto breast1 and then back to breast2 and STILL be rooting. If I put him down after the 4th feed and leave him crying (it didn't hurt him) after 1/2 hour (down to 10 mins after 1 week) he'd be asleep.

I also believe in "when baby sleeps, you sleep" NIGHT OR DAY - but it doesn't help when you need to do the school run does it? or if you've got an active toddler (which I have aswell).

Please try and speak to a b/f counsellor such as La Leche or NCT, they might take some getting through to but I wouldn't be b/f my 3rd still if it wasn't for a lovely lady called Annie who came to do a home visit for me.

Take care - hope I might have been some help...

Kerry (Leicester, UK) xxx

I don't know any of the jargon so I'll have to use plain English - sorry. Just one bit of advice. Buy a book. It's called Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child by Dr Marc Weissbluth. I bought it 18 mths ago to help with my daughter who wasn't at all happy because I didn't understand about sleep. I don't think many of us do, we just assume babies will do it. I have read it frequently to help with my daughter and my son who is 7 mths. He used to sleep 19 hrs out of 24 at 4 months old. Not through luck but being able to recognise his signals and help him. He's a totally different sleeper from my daughter. He goes to bed for the night at 4.30pm wakes for a feed at 5am and wakes to start the day at around 6.45am. People think he's unusual but I think many babies would share the sleep pattern if we understood more about sleep and if we didn't consider their sleeping patterns inconvenient.
Buy the book. It has changed my life, and my childrens, to everyone's benefit.
There is no quick fix solution, and it will take you a long long time to understand enough about sleep to help your baby. THe book is complicated but don't give up.

Thanks so much for all these great replies. So many great suggestions.

Last night was a bit different. Started out great - he slept from 9-2am! Then a 40 min feed but then wouldn't settle so was awake from 2-5, trying to get him to sleep sucking on my finger (won't take his dummy) then feeding again at 4am (i didn't want to feed him before that for fear of creating a snack 'n' snooze night) then feeding again at 6-7. The thing is he's also sometimes quite happy at these awake times, not seemingly hungry OR tired.

I simply can't seem to feed him to sleep after his night feeds. I do sometimes feed him lying down but he still doesn' go to sleep unless it's when he's been awake 2 hours. I also find it tricky to latch him on lying down and we both frequently end up frustatedand he might suck/feed/pull on and off/cry for more for an hour or so. Also have to feed my right boob lying on my left side which is pretty awkward so can't sleep while he feeds on my side. I certainly couldn't do it all without being awake!

I know the EASY routine and he usually is tired by 1.5hrs after daily sleeps anyway. Never feed him to sleep during the day. Can't enfore nap schedule and fussy rocking/shhshinhg etc on him as have to attend to DS1 so DS2 is simply put in sling when he gets tired and cranky.

Happiest Baby on the Block sounds good, though i already have Gina an BabyWhisperer and they haven't worked Wongy, good idea to write everyting down for 3 days - i will do this though will probs just conclude he likes to be awake from 1-5am!

Daytimes are fine, though demanding with two. If someone took baby for a walk I'd still have DS1 to deal with so bit pointless.

Cranial Osteopathy...i will find some more threads on that. He's ok in the evenings though, happy on DH's lap at the moment, just the blinkin' nighttimes, so maybe he's generally ok. i'll look into it.

bedtime ROUTINE? Yep, we do need it and I should probably do him an earlier bedtime too, though would this really impact the later night unsettledness?

Tonights plan at 1/2am feed is to feed him one side, then reswaddle and feed him second side in rocking chair with him on cover (good idea about moses basket cover Argon0). Start rocking as he nears end of breast and then continue for 5 minutes until I'm sure he's really sound asleep, then transfer both baby and cover to moses basket verrrry gently. If no success there, tomorrow i will just put him to bed next to me tonight and try to co-sleep all night so feed him as soon as he whimpers to see if it will stop him waking properly.

I'm a bit worried by those of you who've said they've experienced similar and their children didnt' sleep better until 2 years old

right, going to feed him now. I will let you all know how tonight goes. thanks again, i feel more positive and determined to sort it out now

celandine, it sounds a bit like he has his days and nights mixed up, which is still quite reasonable at 8 weeks. (Had to read back through the thread, for some reason thought he was 8 MONTHS like my ds, def not reasonable!).

Ds had this for quite a long time, woke at 4 a.m. like "hey, it's playtime!" - whether it works or not I could not say, but I would definitely recommend getting outside in the afternoon, whether a walk or just ds2 out in the garden for a nap. This is meant to be the best thing for helping them to set their internal clocks.

Incidentally, was ds2 born at night? My mum has a theory that babies born at night find it harder to get their clocks in order because of that. (My ds was born at 0157)

hi,
im a nanny and thought you might apreciate another view. have you looked at the way you feed him, often if he is laying too flat he will swallow more air and find it harder to bring it up. try raising your leg on the side he is feeding so the air naturally comes up. you cuold also try suplimenting the 11/12 pm feed with a bottle of formula to try and fill him up more and get him to sleep longer. these may help to settle him more and hopefully will have a knock on effect on the rest of the night.
i hope this helps,
siobhan

Hi there and sorry to hear you're having a hard time of it. DS is 10 months now and has been as bad as that at times. Read lots of books and spoken to lots of people and this is the best advice I can give, sorry if you've heard it all before or already tried it.

Try and put him down sleepy but not fully asleep, if he crys pick him up settle him and try again and do it gradually. The idea is he gets used to falling asleep aware of his surroundings and doesn't freak out when he wakes up next wondering where he is.

Try and fill him tummy up as much as possible in the day.

When my DS was that age he would always falll asleep on the nipple and I broke that habit by breaking him when he wasn't properly feeding. If he routed I'd give it to him again, count to 20 and do it again and so on. That worked wonders.

Try to give him regular naps in the day. Watch for sleepy signs and maybe give him a nap routine.

Establish a bedtime routine at roughlt the same time every evening and after that time don't take him downstairs or let him get to over-stimlated. Maybe play some nice sleepy music when he is calm and settled and so he assocates that music with sleep.

I'm a bit anti-baby books now but the one book I did read and thought was brilliant was the 'no-cry sleep solution' by Pantley. It is a warm-heated, non-bossy book that has soom good ideas a reassurance.

Good luck and you are by no means alone! It's nothing you've done wrong, some babies are just a nightmare at night time!

Poor you. I am struggling with a 5 months night waker, and its just me dd and my dh, I cant imagine coping with a toddler too. The last days have improved a little but I would say I have set myself up for it really as from very early days we used to either feed her cuddle her or rock her if she cried, day or night. Shes just used to it now, and breaking the habit is awful, she wakes a lot more now and is only just learning how to settle herself. I am not up for co-sleeping, as I find I can't sleep properly and also want to keep our bed as 'our' bed.(I must say though my sister has done so very happily with her 2 kids - not sure how keen her dh is though!) 8 weeks is still very young, but I would say try and get him in to a sleep routine as soon as you can, as I think the longer you leave it, the harder it is. Also, she would not initially take a dummy but something clicked recently and it is a godsend. I was totally against them before, but I must stress I only use it for sleep, I think a lot of the time, they just want a cuddle and to suck on something.
With the feeding, I swear by porridge and drinking lots of water to keep up your milk supply. It is hard to remember or get a chance to drink with little uns around but it makes a huuuge difference for me. If you want to give him formula and he will take it, dont feel guilty. A happy mummy is a happy baby, most of my formula feeding chums have sleepy (but chubby )babies
Good luck

Hi Celandine
hope your feeling better today - just remembered that DS took really well to the MAM soothers- can get them in boots, they're curved so stay in place really well, also found some boots dummies that are curved so hug the face - keep trying them.. although ds did get totally addicted to the dummy but once he was going through the night we weaned him off.
Good luck xx

I have not read all the messages on this thread so I hope I am not repeating anything that has been said already. I have a 6 week old baby who was born 5 weeks prematurely so she has needed pretty constant feeding since getting breastfeeding established. She is my fifth baby. I have found that I need to eat a big bowl of cereal and maybe something else at night in order to be able to produce plenty of milk at night. I think tiredness and an empty tummy (and I'm talking about Mum not baby!) make for inadequte supply and the baby is harder to satisfy. It made a difference for me. She still needs fed about every 3 hours but sleeps in between.

Celandine, I so empathise - the first 18 months of my DS's life were a blur of sleep deprivation -he woke up several times every night. I recently found some "sleep diaries" from when he was five months old and it makes my hair curl to remember how little sleep we were getting at that time. However, he is now 23 months and sleeps a solid 12/13 hours every night, so be reassured that things will get easier.
I thoroughly endorse Mandini's recommendation to buy Weissbluth's book - as she says, it's complicated but it I found that it really helped me to understand what is going on with a small baby's sleeping patterns. Because DS fed so much at night, we ended up co-sleeping (although it hadn't been my intention) and I did figure out how to feed from either breast without having to swap him from side to side - you have to roll over a little further to get the opposite boob to the baby (does that make sense?). A breastfeeding cousellor might well be able to help you with positioning and also to reassure you that you are doing everything right, because you almost certainly are.
I personally would avoid giving a bottle of formula - even one a day will mess with the demand-supply mechanism - but I know plenty of people who went down that route and were happy with it. As for expressing, I found that an electric pump was a fantastic investment and made producing a decent amount of milk a quick and painless process.
Keep your spirits up, get as much company and as much help with your little one as you can, and do remember that things will improve.

Agree with bedtime routine approach, also is being tired affecting your milk supply?

If you want to continue bf do so but you might want to have some formula around just in case - also GF's idea for increasing yield might be appropriate - you can freeze any extra you have to keep your yield up whilst formula feeding (if you see what I mean) just because you start giving formula doesn't mean you have to continue but it might give you some energy if your little one sleeps longer and so do you.