6MONTH OLD HATES GOING TO SLEEP.

[GEM33]

This might turn out to be a long post. so apologies in advance. I have posted a few times about my DD sleep but just want some advice/an outsiders observations please.
SHORT VERSION IS THE LAST PARAGRAPH!!

DD is just over 6 months, first child (oh the mistakes i have already made) and breast fed and taking little bit of food (we started baby led but i now offer bit of puree/porridge each meal time with finger foods).

My DD is EXTREMELY alert. Everyone comments on how alert she is for her age and forward (trying to crawl and said mama already - held her head up since birth, sat up alone 4 months old- doesn't miss a trick -has been here before). She is still in our room in a cot attached to our bed.

My problem is that I am now starting to realise the error of my ways in not having put her down awake to sleep and always putting her on the breast to sleep. Also, boob isnt always enough to get her to sleep. Now, she is starting to wake at the end of every sleep cycle. She is still having at least 3 feeds a night although I am starting to doubt she needs these feeds now. And she constantly wakes between 5am and 530am.

She used to have a good 2-3 hour afternoon nap which is now cut down to 45 mins/an hour and the 3rd nap of the day which she needs as she is exhausted is an absolute battle to get her to sleep at all but she really needs it otherwise she is so grumpy and overtired for bed time. I only want her to have a little nap but like today, I spent from 4 til 545 trying to get her to nap which is ridiculous. in the end we had to take her in the car.

So with all these sleep issues we decided to do the sleep training thing, putting her down awake, but staying in the room with her - the first night she cried for 45 minutes but i was quite surprised she dropped off. in the night i stopped jumping to her at the slightest murmer (first time parents eh!) andi was amazed that she re settled herself a few times and at the 530 wake up after 7 minutes crying she fell back to sleep. the second night though, i couldnt keep her awake to put her down so i really messed up and so on the 3rd night she bloody screamed the house down for over an hour and sobbed in her sleep for an hour (i realise i wasnt consistant on the 2nd night which caused this)-at which point i decided i could absolutely not cope with the leaving to cry method and swore i would do whatever she wanted to get her to sleep without crying but this now seems unavoidable because as i say the boob doesnt work as often to get her to sleep.

i know she can self settle because i put her down in the morning nap and she drops off with little crying, its just the rest of the time. and ALL THE night wakings!!i think the few nights we tried the sleep training has left her feeling insecure - understandably so now there is no chance of her self settling in the night because she just cries until she gets us (has started to wriggle over to me now as well the last couple of days).

***i just want to hear from people who have older babies maybe that were similar /had problems night wakings etc and did you do sleep training, or did they just learn themselves how to settle and eventually sleep through (i think i would cut my right arm off for a whole nights sleep at this stage).
Do you think my baby just doesnt need 12 hours sleep at night (bed time try for 7 but never get there usually between8-10pm with 3-6 wakings and up at 530-7).
should i go back to the sleep training, do you think putting her in her own room and cot would help? dreading doing this, just dont want any more crying!!!

thanks for your time reading this!

Hi GEM, my 6mo is no where near a perfect sleeper but here is what I do to try and get the best out of his sleep:

He has 2 or 3 naps a day (depending on when he wakes up eg 5am or 8am!). I make sure he has 30-45 min sleep at 4ish even if this means going out for a walk in the pram or a drive in the car. Without it he is over tired and horrible at bedtime.

The bedtime routine begins at 6ish preferably before eye rubbing starts. His bed routine is the same every night - bath, massage, pjs, boob, bed. I feed him to sleep. He is then normally asleep and in his cot by 7.

He is now in his own room and this has reduced the amount of night wakings dramatically (from 4 minimum to 2 maximum). He'll tend to wake once or twice and I'll feed him and put him back down again when he's asleep.

He isn't a great napper, more often than not I feed/rock him to sleep. I was pretty worried about bad sleep habits but the wise people of MN said 6mo don't really have bad habits, besides as soon as they start teething/get ill/get older all their sleep habits will change again anyway.

I also tried sleep training (PU/PD), failed miserably and felt horrendously guilty. But it hasn't effected him in the long run at all so try not to beat yourself up about it.

I think basically, try and get her naps sorted by whatever means necessary and her bedtime earlier and maybe put her in her own room and then see what happens. But like I said my ds is by no means great at sleeping although we do seem to be having more good nights than bad recently!

good luck!

Forgot to say my ds is also very active/nosy and doesn't want to miss a thing. Someone told me that their dc starting sleeping wonderfully as soon as they started crawling....so fingers crossed there is light at the end of the tunnel!

Hmm. It isn't clear whether she hates sleeping, or just hates sleeping when you want her too tbh.

She sounds overtired hence fighting sleep.

I'd get her on to a rough routine structured around solids over a month or so. Aim for three naps a day, third nap a power nap. Give up if she's not asleep quickly. Watch for tired signs and nap quickly. By any means necessary.

Bedtime - reintroduce a consistent routine. Make bedtime early, so asleep by half 6 after a short routine. Dd is 6 months and I don't really have a long routine - bath, boob, bed. She's currently waking loads at night - but that's because she has bad wind and a growth spurt. Ds was the same and his sleep massively improved around the 6/7 month mark with no intervention from me - just made sure he got naps and early bedtime.

Alfie, thats really reassuring what you've said. I do think it is time for her own room as she is getting too big for her bed now and also I think it is too easy for her to stir a little and then think oh i'll have a suck on mum while shes there...
re naps, yeah, i think you are right, i should just give up trying when it fails sooner and just do the pram or car thing for the last nap of the day just so i can get her into bed earlier. yeah 4 ish is around the time i would like her to nap like you say depending on what time she woke up.

Iggly, yeah, I totally agree she is overtired but what i dont get is, sometimes I manage to get her to bed early when I think she is just right for bed- say 7pm and within her 2 hour awake time yet she will fight it for hours.
I will definitely try what you suggest, and be more consistent with bedtimes, they have been a bit up and down anywhere between 7 and 10pm and maybe our bedtime routine takes too long - bath, brush teeth, massage, story, boob, bed. I think the story gets her excited more than relaxed so i'll prob cut that out and reintroduce when she is older.

startlight, yep, she is def on her own agenda.

great, thanks everyone, ok, consistency with the bed times and shorter routine and get her to nap however i can.

(me and dh have been pretty worn down and bit snappy with each other and worried we were doing things wrong etc so glad you have all posted for help - thank you)

But that's my point.

I presume she had no sleep issues in the womb? Or did she get overtired there too? Did you have to spend a couple of hours settling her then?

I think that age Seems to be the tricky bit. They dont want to miss out etc!! With my dd (now 8 1/2 months) I tried the cc approach (but didn't follow it thro) and like u it seemed to cause her more upset than help. As soon as I took her in her room she would cry, like she knew what was coming broke my heart So went back to the rocking her off downstairs. When she seemed to be over it, I did the gradual retreat (but never made it out of her bedroom! So sit till she sleeps) and she normally gets herself to sleep within minutes. Now she's trying to crawl, she does have a few acrobat evenings, in which I leave her to it which I do some chores while she gets sleepy. I really don't think she needs me there to be fair. I secretly enjoy it. Best thing I ever did! Naps are a slightly different story. But were rarely home to get her take them in her cot, so think it just confuses her. Hope this helps. Xxx

I forgot to add that dd also goes thro the night most of the time too now. Not doubting she doesn't wake, but has learnt to self settle. We have hiccups with illness, and tummy pain/ problems with her milk now I have stopped bf. I'm reckoning ur 3 night feeds are more a comfort thing as she associates that with getting her to sleep. Xxx

op - what time does she usually nap & how long for at each nap? 45 min naps are often a sign of not being tired enough to sleep for more than 1 sleep cycle, & if she is resisting going down for a nap at all it can also be a sign she's not tired enough.

At around 6 months old we also found that if DS had a nap at tea-time, esp if he didn't go down til nearer 5-5.30pm, he wouldn't settle well at bedtime AND he would wake early. I never realised at the time but with hindsight it was the tea-time nap that was causing the problems.

If you post your routine we can take a look. I think if we can get her afternoon nap lengthened, it won't be such a problem if the 3rd nap is skipped.

When they're really overtired they fight sleep. Also as she's 6 months, the two hour awake rule changes and they shift towards a 2/3/4 hour awake pattern so by 9 months, on 2 naps. It's quite a tricky transition - I'm heading into it with dd. she's 6 months and wakes from her long lunch nap at 2.30/3 then has a quick 15 min nap at half 4/5 and bedtime is half 6. If I leave it to 7, she fights it.

Agree fighting sleep can also be overtiredness. 30min or 1hr naps are usually indicative of OT whereas 45mins more likely UT.

My DS dropped his 3rd nap much sooner than 9 months though - more like 6 months old. A compromise until they are ready to drop the nap completely is to keep the 3rd nap super short so it prevents OT by bedtime but doesn't intefere with night sleep, so like Iggly says, more like 15-20mins.

HTH.x

ok, yeah the nap times are usually wake about 630am (im picking on day we had last week as we all know the times vary day to day) in the morning.

back to bed about 830am. -up at 10.
sleep 1230 until - well sometimes only 45mins but usually 3pm.

then for the last 2 weeks, i have tried and tried to get her to have a quick nap at 5pm but she has resisted in her bed or even on the boob like she used to so now have resorted to car seat (i wonder if this is ok for her spine and stuff to nap in the car seat so much as she always has the long lunchtime nap in the car seat which is why i try to put her to bed for the last nap).

today, i managed to get her to nap at 430 til 530 and actually got her ready for bed at 730 but still it took ages to settle her - eventually went to sleep at 9pm!!

starlight - what you on about her being in the womb? im not catching your drift? shes not int he womb any more and life is all very exciting for her and she doesnt want to miss anything. and actually she was very active baby in the womb and made me very ill!

Ok, so in total she's getting about 4 hours daytime sleep? That sounds like too much to me. I think the absolute most my 6 m/o DD has is about 3 hours now.

Some days she only takes 2 naps if they are longish ones but usually she has three naps but in total it's about 2.5-3 hours daytime sleep.

I'd shorten the morning nap and if she's waking at 3, put her to bed at half 6. 7 is too late without a PM nap.

Agree with Iggly. I think if afternoon nap is more regularly just 45mins, I would put her down a wee bit later for the morning nap eg 8.45/9am but still wake her at 10am. Keep lunchtime nap at 12.30 & hopefully she will sleep the full 2hrs.

If she naps until 3pm she probably isn't tired enough to nap at tea-time, hence why she is resisting. On these days I would shoot for an earlier bedtime like Iggly says.

If the lunchtime nap is shorter I would still offer a catnap at tea-time but keep it short. 1hr is far too much at this age & is the reason why you couldn't get her down at bedtime yesterday, because she probably wasn't tired enough. I'd limit it to 30mins absolute max, but more like 15-20mins.

HTH.x

I will try to reduce her day time sleep, what I dont understand is why she cries before every single sleep/nap. Like today, she was up at 545, went back to sleep at 8 up at 10 (she was up early). slept 12 -130pm then 4-5 so i got her ready for bed by 7 and she just whinged and made this really awful noise not crying but like grunty whining for an hour, this was all through her feed on both sides, then winding, (- she isnt constipated her poo is always nice consistency and this noise she was making definitley wasnt poo related). then i put her down and stayed with her where she could see me but even if i put her down and she can see me no matter what mood she has been in it reduces her to tears and loads of sweating. like tonight through this whinging she was sweating (the room isnt hot, she isnt over dressed and the fan is on). Putting her down to sleep is like torture sessions every single night, thats why i am posting for advice because i feel like she really hates going to sleep. i dont think she has had too much sleep today because she looked tired and ready for bed but i dont think she was over tired going to bed because she was within a couple of hours of being awake but she was rubbing her eyes.
if i leave the room she gets hysterical and like i said about the sleep training she will cry for over an hour and sob in her sleep.
i would love to put her down in her bed and for her to be happy about it. I tend to fall asleep next to her in my bed soon after so its not like she ever feels if she falls asleep she'll wake and im not there because i always am.
i know she is teething but surely this wouldnt make her so distressed every single bed time for the last 3/4 months?

Can you cuddle her to sleep? Don't leave her, just cuddle her so she knows you're there? You said the sleep training upset her - so teach her again that it'll be fine. Are you putting her down awake? I cuddle dd and it's a lot quicker and she's happier too.

Ok she's groaning while feeding. Do you think she might have a touch of silent reflux? DD has silent reflux and is affected when I eat dairy, soya, tomatoes, onions and acidic stuff. If she's having a refluxy episode, she'll growl a lot. I have to hold her upright after a feed for 10-15 mins.

It peaks at around 3 months then they can grow out of it as they get older.

i try to cuddle her but she pulls and pushes and wriggles, i wondered if she had tummy ache but surely she wouldnt have tummy ache so often and i would have thought her back would arch with that.
she did have bad reflux about 3 months which calmed down but now you mention it she does seem to cough alot in her sleep and swallow as if stuff is coming back up. i wonder if she sleeps better in her car seat because it is upright? we have lowered one side of the bed so she isnt lying flat and her feet are lower but i could make more of an angle and put some towels under the mattress. maybe thats why she wakes so often.
i'll check my diet and see if she is worse after certain foods - i must admit i thought we were out of the woods at this age.
i try to put her down awake but she gets quite upset when i do this unless we have miracle nights on the odd occassion. since boob hasnt been enough to help her drop off rocking is the only other thing that works but she is soooooo heavy i hate doing this as i have tendonitis in my arms.
what else could i look out for regarding the reflux and is there more i could do other than keep her upsright after feeds and angling the bed?

If it's silent reflux its worth experimenting with your own diet. I gave up caffeine first and hit the jackpot, DH no longer suffers unless I have caffeine. Didn't help him nap though!

I think what starlight is suggesting is that you relax and let your baby dictate when she's tired. I am inclined to agree but have been exactly where you are with a baby who becomes inconsolable when overtired but has never been able to 'switch off' or 'wind down' on his own.

From experience I'd say it sounds like she's ready to drop the last nap. Might be worth trying for a few days?

I really need to take my own advice here but try not to stress too much, it really doesn't help. Maybe clear your diary for a couple of weeks and go with the flow without the worry of dealing with an inconsolable baby around other people (something that really stresses me out, if we've got appointments I worry even more that he hasn't/won't nap) - I agree with those saying it may well change once she's on the move. DH didn't crawl but once he started walking at 12.5 months he naturally started to nap for much longer without any kind of training

Im definitely going to experiment with the diet, im noticing more today that she does have reflux. (she fed every hour last night btw).
re relaxing and baby dictating when she is tired, yeah ive done this. its really hard to relax though when you see your child rubbing their eyes, yawning so you think, ok well sleep then, ive even left her in the comfy position she is in when she gets tired but she gets more and more tired and then cries and shouts as if to say come on mother im tired do something about it. she has been up for 5 hours between naps and totally exhausted when i just leave her to it.

Some babies are just like that

My DS was very much like that at 6mo. Waking every hour or two. Nightmare to get to sleep. Tried sleep training which didn't work and left us demoralised and DS upset.

It all got better at around 8 months. Firstly, he learned to settle himself between sleep cycles by rolling onto his tummy, so night wakings reduced to one or two a night. Secondly, for some reason he started feeding to sleep again (he hadn't done from about 3 months so we had to rock him which took ages, loads of crying etc) so I just went with it. Thirdly, he started crawling so he was more physically tired I think.

He slept right the way through for the first time at 10 months. We'd get the odd night of that but usually he'd be up for a feed once. At a year old, he was sleeping through 3-4 nights a week and waking once the rest of the time. Then regressed around 14 mo and started waking again. I'd feed him back to sleep because I was back at work almost FT and was too tired to be dicking about patting him to sleep in the muddle of the night.

He suddenly started sleeping through consistently - ie 10-11 hours pretty much every night - at 19 mo (is 20 mo now). No sleep training, still fed to sleep for naps and bedtime. Still doesn't self-settle to sleep though he does for his childminder and DH cuddles him to sleep when he has him so he can fall asleep without boob.

It's not been easy AT ALL but just wanted to tell you all this so you can see that things do sometimes sort themselves out on their own if sleep training doesn't work/you don't like it. Also that they can sleep through without self-settling. I remember at bedtime I was putting DS down awake at 6 mo (until he learned to stand up ) yet he was still waking up loads - they just do at that age.

Hope you get some sleep soon :)

Should also add DS has always been super-alert and nosy, just like your DD. I found this site about 'high-needs babies' and it was like a light bulb going off in my head. Some kids just find it really hard to wind down - it's not your fault, it's just the way she is.

Before you know it you'll have a gorgeous, bright, funny, sparky toddler on your hands. DS is still super-alert, into everything, always on the go, but he's such a sunny little dude and so much fun :)

Agreed about high needs babies, I'm convinced we have one but I've kept it to myself. I don't want to label him negatively because I think family and friends will catch onto it and make it a big deal. It helps to know there's others out there though whose babies don't just drop off!