Overtired of under tired? 11mo naps..

[jaffa19]

My ds is becoming tricky to put down after lunch and the last 2 day's I've fed/cuddled him to sleep, something I've never really done.

He wakes at 630, sleeps approx 930-10, and then I usually try to put him down 2.5 hrs after that, after a good lunch.

Last few days he's just gone into his cot and had a bit of a party with his few soft toys, got himself into a random position he can't get out of in his sleeping bag, then or upset and screamed the place down until I go in Nd comfort him with a cuddle or a bf. once we get to this point he WILL NOT be put down until he's deeply asleep in my arms.

And then we have te problem of the 30minute nap which is a whole other story and I've kind of given up on lengthening it.

So am I putting him down to early and he's just not ready for a sleep? We have a short nap routine that usually winds him down quite well.

Thanks all

Good luck!

It might be something as simple as wind (ds used to get wind even when older and he'd wake upset) - I used to try and wind him but tricky on e fast asleep!

Iggly, I think you're right. Wind. Either that or teething. He has woken up already at 645, and only just went back down again.

He was screaming, totally and utterly inconsolable, had a bit more of a feed, carried on crying, started pulling his knees up, did a few almighty farts, had another bf and then fed to sleep again.

What do you do about wind at this age? I heard gripe water is hard to come by these days! I had thought it might be a return of his reflux and was thinking of trying gaviscon, but it does seem to be more like wind.

Having said all of that, the fact that he's woken pretty much exactly 30 mins after going down for the last few nights would still point to overtiredness (30 mins being the lenght of his naps?)

thanks so much for all of your help so far. I love mumsnet.

Ah - DS had reflux and still now at 2.6 gets bouts of wind.

I used to give a teaspoon of fennel tea after tea and it really helps get wind out. When he was having a really bad spell, I'd mix a teaspoon in his beaker of water and give that in the night.and I was convinced it was worse when he was teething but never sure.

Also had to be careful what food I gave at tea time. Green veg especially peas were a no (think of veg that gives you wind). In fact tea was always dull - rice/pasta with meat. No dairy either.

Also he'll wake after 30 mins because he's cycled into a light sleep and the wind will then wake him.

Looks like we might have found our answer then! Poor little man had such a bad tummy for the first 6 months and once on solids it really seemed to improve. But he has eaten a lot of peas over the last few days (they're his favourite) and also falafel and broccoli.

He has had fennel and cammomile tea before and gulped it down, so I'll try that, thanks Iggly!

Hun I agree with Iggly he is looking overtired with the later lunchtime nap. If it is shortening from 1.5hrs to 1hr to 30mins then this is very definitely overtired.

I suppose at least a bit of trial & error has shown us that he does not need a later lunchtime nap. TBH at the same age my LO would nap at 12.30 but it was your comments that the nap used to be longer but has shortened over time that made me wonder about UT. So.....how about doing as Iggly suggests & pulling it back to 12.30pm for the next few days coupled with EBT & see what happens. If he is still waking early & short napping then we'll look at what else you can try.

Poor thing! We had to be careful with diet until he was about 2 the he outgrew the worst of it. He's still windy now but doesn't trouble his sleep (although he refuses a lot of veg which could be why!)

I'm going crazy.

Today so far:
Awake 615
Nap 920-950
Nap 1235-115

I've left him in his cot as I'm in too much of a state to go up and get him! Why why why won't he nap or longer! I'd just cleared up after his hectic morning and put the kettle on, and then he woke up.

Do some kids just not need much sleep? Is it worth trying or should I just accept that he doesn't need it?

Just a quick question to you both! I know I need to stick at these timings for a few days before seeing a change, but when he does this do I really push him to bedtime again like yesterday? Surely after a couple of days like that the overtiredness will turn him into a grumpy, miserable little boy?!

His morning nap looks too late... Sorry! Go for a nap which is two hours after he wakes. Lunch time nap is fixed. Flexing the morning nap will let him catch up from lost sleep. Aim to have lights out about ten mins before the two hours are up. Make sure room is blacked out etc.

Also does he need help resettling for a longer nap? I used to have to go in and rock ds back to sleep after 45 mins until his body got used to sleeping longer. Then by 12 months he was doing it himself.

If he's really tired, give a little power nap in the pm but keep up trying to nap him. As he sleeps longer in the morning, he'll get better.

Basically you're aiming for a 2-3-4 pattern. The numbers represent the awake times between naps. So wake up, nap after 2 hours, wake, nap after 3 hours then bed after 4 hours. That's where the fixed times come in.

Aargh this is hideous. Had such a crap evening, I am so rubbish at this.

So he fell asleep in the car between 415-430. Hardly ate any dinner. Then bath at 6. Pjs as normal. Feed 615 - which he point blank refused, turned into a hyper active monster and started bouncing up and down on the bed like a duracell bunny. I let him bounce for a few mins, still he refused to feed so I plonked him in his cot. Of course he screamed so I got him out, then he fed but finished wide awake ( I'd got used to the ease if him feeding to sleep the last few weeks!) soci true to put him down but he then had a full on tantrum - pushing me away, head flung back, the works. Properly fighting sleep. Eventually he fell asleep in my arms at 7pm. He definitely shouldn't have had the catnap!

So not only has his sleep routine gone up the spout, he has well and truly lost the art of self settling!

So, iggly, its a complete routine overhaul then? I'd been keeping him up religiously in the morning til 930 because I read on here that prevents early rising. So I'll start by putting him down 2 hrs after he wakes a but what about breakfast? He usually has bf on waking then proper breakfast about 8-830. Say he wakes at 630, I'd usually leave him in his cot till 7, but if he needed to then go down again at 830 would you give his breakfast after that nap then? I don't think he'd be ready for it just an hour after a big bf.

And then fixed lunch nap at 1230? Followed by a 6pm bedtime until the lunch nap lengthens to 2 hours. Fingers crossed.

As for night wakings we're contemplating cc. We are both at our wits end and we never wanted to resort to that but I have PND, my husband is ob the way there and the stress and anxiety that DS's sleep causes is just too much. We are exhausted and I need to fix it. Problem is i don't think i can go through with it...Do you know if cc at night will help with his naps?

Thanks so much. X

. I wouldn't worry about a big breakfast too much - you're aim is to get him sleeping properly. Once that starts, you can worry about moving the nap a bit later.

So nap at 8.30. I'd give him a feed when he wakes, then breakfast at 7.30 then nap at half 8. snack or BF mid morning.

Yep then lunch nap at half 12, bed at 6/6.30 as he gets better. Your aim is to get him used to sleeping in the day. Sleep in his room while he naps and resettle if you can if he wakes after 45 mins (sleeping in his room makes you rest too - I used to do this - and means you can catch him more quickly).

I don't think cc at night would sort the naps out TBH. A routine should help you there. Don't forget the wind issue though - try a really plain diet and give fennel tea too so he's not in discomfort at night.

Thanks iggly.

I've just put him on his cot at 830 (he woke at 640 this morning) and he's screaming the house down for the first time at morning nap in months! I guess he is used to being up a bit longer :(

I am going to stick at this for a few days though and hopefully he'll get used to the new routine!

Total, total disaster.

He would not entertain the idea of an 830 nap. Screamed and shouted til I got him up again. Played happily and laughed til 910. Went through normal nap routine again but by this point he knew what was coming and fought with me until falling asleep on me at his usual 930. Woke every time I tried to put him down, til eventually went in cot at 945.

I know we were trying to tackle his over tiredness but I really don't think he's tired much before 915.

Actually lots of babies coming up to one year start to drop their am nap? I don't for a second thik ds is ready for that, but surely his nap would be getting later naturally by now anyway?

If it doesn't work then go for 915?

I think it's more common to drop the morning nap closer to 18 months. Ds dropped his over a couple of months and was tricky! He'd fight it some days (if he'd slept in) but crash other days.

With lunch time, stick with half 12 every day.

It takes a while to get into a routine but once you've got the lunch time nap sorted (can you resettle him for a longer nap?) it's easy to move it about.

How was his night?

His night wasn't too bad. Woke once at 1130 for a 3 min bf then up at 640.

I'm trying to cut down the night feeds by 30secs each night then try an settle without. This worked last time and he ended up sleeping through.

Am definitely going to stick to 1230 nap. I' e tried lengthening it in the past but only really works when he's in the buggy. I'll definitely give it another go today though.

Good luck! He might lengthen them himself as he gets used to it.

Well he slept for an hour, followed by a 15 min sleep-feed. I tried to extend by rocking (both before and after bf) but he just wouldn't go off. I think I ciuld've got there sooner so I'll try again tommorrow.

jaffa - I have to say the 2-3-4 routine works great for babies 6-8 months, but IMHO keeping him up just 2hrs is too little for an 11 month old - I think your DS proved that today too! My DS was doing at least 3hrs at that age. And I am one of the believers that having too early an AM nap leads to early waking so I was one of those who kept my DS up til 9.30 for his morning nap at this age.

Some babies do cut out the morning nap as early as 12 months, but the majority are between 15-18 months. Mine started doing 1 nap days at 12-13 months, but couldn't handle it every single day until he was 15 months.

So...interesting that the earlier lunchtime nap was short at 40mins again eh? Keep trying with it & see how he fares this week. If they are short all week, I think he is showing you he really isn't tired enough to sleep for longer. We already know he can't manage to stay awake 3hrs before his lunchtime nap without getting overtired, so my other suggestions to you would be:

1. gradually shorten the AM nap more, by 5 mins every 3 days so its 9.35-10am for 3 days then 9.40-10am for 3 days & so on & keep lunchtime nap at 12.30. See if it lengthens. You might need to cut the morning nap back to just 15mins from 9.45-10 but I wouldn't suggest cutting it completely

OR

2. gradually push the morning nap later by 5 mins every 3 days, but keep it capped at 30mins. Do this until it starts at 10am. At the same time, the lunctime nap will shift back by 5mins every 3 days until it starts at 1pm. You might find that by giving him the extra 30mins awake in the morning, this will tire him enough by his lunchtime nap that he takes a better (& longer) nap. Pushing both naps later means you aren't stretching him to stay awake for a longer amount of time after a short nap, AND it means that his lunchtime nap is that wee bit closer to bedtime, so he should find it easier to manage without his late afternoon nap (which BTW really needs to go!)

HTH.x

Hi again, back with an update.

I think I agree with you omama, he can easily go 3 hours in the morning before his nap. I am sticking to the plan for a week and then I think i will try option 2, sounds more appealing.

So the last few days have been interesting! His lunch time nap on wednesday was an hour followed by 10-15 min sleep feed. Yesterday it was an hour and 10mins, followed by 10-15 min sleep feed. So hopefully today he'll sleep for an hour and a half! I've been putting him down 2hrs45 after waking from the morning nap.

Our current problem is night waking and the wind problem. Last 3 nights we have had long, painful nightwakings of 2hrs plus - last night he went down at 6pm, and woke at half past six. we couldn't get him back down til 9pm. It was hideous. Screaming and screaming. We tried fennel tea, gripe water, calpol, teething powders, bf after bf after bf... he would fall asleep feeding and then as soon as he slipped off he'd wake screaming again. Eventually we got him up properly, took him into a bright room to calm down, then did bedtime routine all over again! Then he woke again at 330, and up for the day at 6am. So despite his daytime naps improving (slowly!) he's currently 3 hours behind on sleep from last night!

I think he's poorly - but he always seems to be coming down with something! argh!

anyway, we're waiting til he gets better, but what are your thoughts on cc? I'm worried about it affecting the bf relationship - I sill want to bf during the day, but am at breaking point with regards to sleep...

You can't do cc without tackling his wind. He won't settle if he's in pain. Could it be reflux related? Does he eat tomatoes, wheat, citrus..? Dairy? These are all triggers... Also try fennel with his meal. Peppermint is another option and give him a bit more?

Yep he eats all of the above, but has never been affected by any of it until the last week. Always wolfed down yoghurt, spag Bol, toast. Less I the citrus thoUgh.

I'm going to try gaviscon tonight, it worked very well when he was tiny. And he's sipping fennel tea as I write. I also he dinner half an hour earlier today to give him more time to digest it.

Will let you know how it goes!