Awful nights with 6 mth old - need creative ideas on how to survive this!

[kayjayel]

I desperately need some ideas to improve DS2's sleep. He is nearly 6 mths. After some reasonable-ish newborn sleep (once 5 hrs in a chunk) up to about 12 weeks, he then dropped that for a more common 2 hrly snack feed.

I was being very relaxed about the frequent wakes/feeds - cosleeping safely, feeding whenever, assuming it would sort itself out at some point. But his wakings have increased and for the past month it has become constant feeding. Often with a poo in the night due to so much milk.

The problem for at least the past week or so is that he will only 'sleep' while feeding, and if I detach him he wakes within 10-30 mins (sometimes I get a magic 45 mins). At least twice a night he does a weird thing where he latches on and off, as if he's gone off me, but if I take the option of feeding away (e.g. cuddle or rock him) he screams. A typical night is:

8pm fed to sleep
8.45pm wake, only feeding will get him back to sleep (rocking/cuddling, someone else etc/ bottle = screaming A LOT)
Sometimes 1 hr sleep after re-settling
Then I come to bed and he feeds on and off throughout the night. I rarely check the time (as it makes me feel worse), but had to last night and I saw every hour. Any attempt to detach from me leads to broken heart screaming.
Wakes happy and lovely for the day around 7am.

Tonight we had the added bonus of a 3am massive poo.

I don't know if its connected but for the last 2 months almost all his poos have been fairly green. Some more green than others, but very very rare to have a yellow one. He also flinches and jerks a bit in his sleep as if in discomfort - could this be all the milk? But if I don't offer milk he screams.

He is of course teething, but having calpol makes no difference to the sleep, and he is very happy and lovely in the day. In the morning he usually has a long nap (in a rocking chair) of 2-3 hrs. This doesn't work at night.

So please anyone can you give me some ideas of what to do. I have some support next week from DP to regain some naps for me, and recover, but I need things to improve a bit (my very modest goal would be to get 2 hour chunks of sleep again!), as I have to manage two other DC, and back to work.

I won't do CC or CIO.
I did have No Cry Sleep Solution (for other two horrendous sleepers!), and I've been doing the pull off technique with no effect - I can get him off me using it, but he just roots around about 5-10mins later. This is obviously very annoying if I've just dropped off.
Does anyone have any creative ideas about what may be the problem, and what I could do to slightly improve things? My expectations of sleep with a baby were very low, I thought by cosleeping and going with his needs I would be able to cope, and I am doing fine with frequent feeds, but the constant feeding and on-off latching, and pooing at night is not sleep!

You are his dummy by the sounds of it. I was told Green poo is too much or too little milk. In your case I would say too much. You wouldn't stand over a bottle fed babies cot with a bottle hanging out their mouth all night, why should you let your boob do that? He need to distinguish what's comfort and what's food, so do you! I exclusively BF both ds till 1yr and co slept I have also fallen to sleep feeding at 1 and woken at 7 baby still attached, neither of us had moved. I know how hard the waking before putting them down bit is. You really need to ask yourself if you want to fix this as you have put a lot of restraints on the advice you want. Personally I would do an evening feed keep waking him to make sure he is feeding. Wrap him up tight and give him a dummy. He's obviously a sucky baby. If he cries wait 1 min go back in don't pick him up, stroke his back say sh give him dummy again, if he cries wait 2 mins, same again, then 4, 5, 10, 20 etc. This worked for me and is far easier than leaving them to cry it out. Work out how many feeds you think he needs in the night and stick to it. Babies are very clever and quickly work out what's going on, I always think of it as if you were playing a new game of cards, you want to know the rules but if one day you are told ace is high then the next day its low it gets confusing, so you want the rules up front then everyone sticking to them and getting on with the game. He needs the game rules setting up then sticking to. Good luck.

Yep you are being used as a dummy. It will only stop when you say so. You will be suprised how quickly your baby will get used to you saying no. So he cries when he doesn't get your boob in his mouth? Well so what? Let him cry a couple of times, it's only a protest, you know he's not hungry. You can of course give him a hug or whatever but only offer the boob at certain times in the night.

I know how hard it is to start something new like this when you are already shattered, but it's not going to change (will prob get worse) until you do something.

Thanks for replying. I know I'm annoyingly asking for magical solutions, but making him scream for hours isn't going to work for us. I'll try some different dummies again, though, thanks for the prompt. He's just started taking nuk bottles sometimes, so their dummies may work too.
Any other ways to cope - I also need ideas on what might help me - if I can change the nights I need some ways of feeling okay with it?

You'll feel ok with it when you are not so shattered, frazzled, tired and exhausted!!!! They pull on your heart strings. Decide your plan stick with it give yourself 7 days bet its sorted by day 3. You are not saying no milk to a starving child, I presume he's on solids too. It's a short journey from saying no to a baby and no to a steaming toddler who wants a crap piece if plastic on the front if a £3.50 magazine!!! No is no the sooner they learn it the happier you will both be. This time next week you could be getting 4 hour chunks. Arrrr just think a solid 4 hours ;)

Agree with others that unless you change what you're doing, your baby won't change either. It's probably going to get worse as he gets older and you're trying to wean him as I can't imagine he's that hungry during the day.

Would you try pick up, put down? This will involve crying but you never leave the room.

I had this and had hourly wakings after starting co sleeping - I just started to rock her in her cot instead and the longest she cried was 10 minutes but it really improve things fast.... Quickly she let me delatch her and put her down... I did have to rock a cot every hour for one night but only for a minute or two. She now wakes a lot but not like before. I feed her 3 or 4 hourly. Cosleeping kind of backfired for me too!

Find another way to soothe - rock ? It will work.

How much help can your DP give next week? My second child used me as a dummy to sleep and instead we started to get my partner to do the sleep routine stuff. He seemed to understand that he wasn't going to get food from him, and so didn't ask and so started to go to sleep much easier. If I get involved then he instantly wants feeding. It's not cry free (the baby that is, not the partner), but as he's snuggled up with his daddy I'm not concerned about the crying (i.e. he's not being left alone in a room)

I had a thread under my old name dycey - and it was at 6 months too tht I changed it with honestly hardly any real trouble or rather no heartache...

Maybe you could use a pram for a few nights to break the nipple addiction? My dd loves the pram which is why I decided to rock the Cot, it's not so different. I have a cheap ikea one tht I can lift up and down easily.

Similar here but with a 4 month old. Will sleep often 7-11 but then wont sleep without nipple in mouth. I have turned into a zombie the last few days and dreaming of when it was "only" every 2 hours.

Husband works away so cant plan anything around him. Tonight he was home and tried to cuddle her to sleep but after an hour I had had enough of the crying and fed her again - she was asleep within 5mins.

Hi again Kay, I just wanted to say I wasn't suggesting you let him cry for hours. I realise with other kids in the house etc you just can't do that, even if you had the heart for it. It would wake everyone up and then no one would get any sleep. I just think it really wouldn't come to that, that he'd probably only cry for 10 mins and settle down. A lot of the time they pick up on your attitude. If you are determined not to give in they kind of sense it I think.

I'm not unsympathetic at all, my first ds was a dreadful sleeper and totally relied on me feeding him to sleep for well over a year. It was the hardest year of my life! So with my others there was just no way I was going to let them be the same. I co slept with them all. Ds2 would be quite demanding, if he was being persistent wanting the boob I'd turn my back to him sometimes.

As for tips for you, I reckon you need to give yourself a complete from the baby everyday if you can. Get out of the house if you can. Go for a walk or drive or whatever, just to have some non mummy time. Obviously catch up on your sleep whenever you can too. And just keep telling yourself, 'it will get better soon'.

My DD was the same from when we got home at two weeks old. She got worse, and worse and worse, we pushed on through it but looking back I wish I had tackled it at at 20months she still wakes 3-4 times a night and I am exhausted. I think some of it is normal six month growth spurt but I wish I had got my husband to offer DD water or some distraction other than my nipples. Calpol never touched DD teething, a little nurofen with a meal was much better.

I sympathise. NCSS seems to be a reasonable alternative. And although I cannot stand GF I have found DD is much much happier in a firm routine. Why not go away for a week, alternate in shifts on the sleeping catchup and get DH to deal with wake ups, just feed at set times? But i would give a reasonable amount of pain relief, oh and Sucking reduces the pain to the gums apparently.

Hi kayjayel
You have just described our situation 7 months ago. I was determined not to let our DS cry. He got into waking hourly and would only be soothed with boob in the night. He went through spells of taking comfort from his dad but it was nearly always short-lived. If he woke fully and didn't get me, he'd be up for 2-3 hours in the night. He hated bottles and dummies.

I felt like I was going to die. Lost lots of weight, struggling to function on not only little, but broken sleep. I tried SO HARD to make a plan, reading Pantley and believing there was something I could do to make him change. I was a human dummy all night. He would scream for hours when I was certain he wasn't hungry, wet, in pain etc. He needed me so much. That's what I believe.

Good news is, he's now 13 months and most nights wakes once or twice and usually settles himself. But it was NOT easy and in fact we have only made serious progress in the last month by simply saying 'enough is enough' and putting him down awake but sleepy. Yes he cried, but not for hours. And leapt to 5 hour stretches within the first two nights. This was at 12 months.

But I wasn't ready/able/willing to do this at 6 months. I couldn't bear the protests. In a way, looking back I wish I had been stronger with him but was exhausted.

What I'm saying is I FEEL YOUR PAIN!

Some suggestions that made a positive difference earlier on were:

1. Make a sidecar cot so you can push him away when he's asleep. Obviously if he's mobile you'll need to contain him when you're not in bed and keep the monitor on!

1. I actually night-weaned from the boob completely (later than 6 months admittedly) and gave a bottle of formula (in Nuby bottle) in the night. He was very cross that I wouldn't let him nurse at first but I was resolute. I just wrapped the duvet round me, but stayed put in the bed. This was a huge leap forward sleep-wise in the end and didn't affect BF in the day.

1. Get him onto a dummy if you think this will help. When he's chilled out (TV time, bath time, naps, pram wherever) at first. Then only in bed. Gets easier when they can find it and put it in themselves.

1. On those times when he pops off of his own accord let him lie there and mess about in bed. He just might fall asleep alone. I wouldn't have believed it possible either, but it did happen on occasion.

You know when people say 'it will pass'? It will, but in my experience it only passed because I finally had the strength and confidence to say no to being a human dummy! And only when I was absolutely sure he knew I was there for him.

I'm still BFing, and when he's ill and I let him nurse at night/very frequently he slips right back into being a little suck-monster.

Stay strong!

I'm right here with you. DS is 7mo and hasn't slept more than 3 hours (and mostly no more than 1-2 hours) since he was tiny. I'm shattered. My skin's appalling, my memory crap, my nerves shot to pieces. I have awful migraines and get very easily irritated at him, which upsets me terribly.

We live in a 1-bed flat. DS is next to me every night. Tonight we are doing an experiment. I'm fretting sleeping on the sofa next door and DH is on settling duty. It's very hard for me emotionally. I've sat here through one bout of crying I'd have usually nursed through. DH will come to me if DS is genuinely hungry, but we think it has got to the point that I was there, so boob was there. He's not 'using me as a dummy' of course, he's using me as his mummy, having no concept of what a dummy is (rejected them entirely). Babies suck - no pun intended, dummies are the substitute, not us. Sadly I can't carry on as nature may have intended.

Have done a lot of cosleeping and I'm afraid I'm not one of the lucky people who get more sleep that way. I'm just hoping that a few nights of me being not within arm's reach might reassure him that he's ok to sleep without my boob in his mouth. Fingers crossed, cos it's hurting my heart right now!

Sorry to hijack your thread! Just wanted to show I empathise.

I had same problem as you mumbo, in a 1 bed room flat. I Hung up a curtain between us and the cot as ds would stand and shout mama when he could see me, it was better. I faffed about with ds 1 even when he was in his own room he would get our bed every night, when he was 3 I finally cracked, cracked up from 3 years of broken sleep with him and now ds2, I silently got up and returned him to bed well over 100 times, I couldn't bear to carry on counting past 100, it was a battle of wills. By the end of the week he realised he was getting no where and finally stopped. That's why with ds2 I was having no messing and was a lot stronger with the sleeping, they are 20 months apart and ds 2 slept a whole night before ds1.
Make your changes before they can stand up and shout mama, before they crawl of the bed. Do it today OP and any mum reading this it will change your life. sleep deprivation is mental torture.

Op you are describing my dc4, who after 3 brilliant sleepers was awake every hour up til 7 months. The most important thing is that they are at least a little awake when they go to bed. Preferably without a dummy. I would wake ds2 after his feed enough for him to recognise he was in his cot and if need be Shoosh him to sleep. Every time he woke I repeated scenario of feeding then rousing him and Shooshing if he woke within 2 hours I shooshed him to sleep without feeding. Shooshing involved holding his blanket over him and in the pitch black standing Shooshing. This was not a quick fix but it meant I was getting two hours very quickly and 4 hours not long after. He is now 17 months and goes down from awake after a couple of minutes grumbling at 7:30and sleeps til 6:30 -7 am. I could not have imagined it possible and I truly believe it wouldn't have happened without making sure he was in the cot awake.

Get yourself onto the High Need Baby Support thread OP. We're up to our third thread & I know it can be intimidating joining something like that, but jump in & say hi & I guaranteed you'll get a warm welcome and find lots of mums who empathise.

FWIW, DS used to do this (& still would/does given the chance to). I also will not leave him to cry. However, I've learnt I can leave him to whinge. He's in his own room now & if he wakes I listen very carefully. Full on cry means he's rolled onto his tummy & needs cuddling straight away (otherwise he'll soon be wide awake & impossible to settle). Slight whinge either means he's hungry, lonely or just wants to go back to sleep. If he just wants sleep, he'll manage it on his own within 6 minutes (I know this as I've timed it, lots! 6 mins used to feel like forever, but now I know he can do it it feels ok) If he's hungry or lonely (& lonely to me is still a need that needs to be met) then he'll either still be whinging in 6 mins time or he'll have escalated it to a full on cry. Either way, he gets my full attention.

What I'm saying is, if you haven't already tried it then don't rush to him straight away. Just wait. Probably one minute the first time (it'll feel like forever so watch a clock!) two minutes the second time... Can I clarify though, I'm not suggesting leaving him to cry, but just to take the time to listen to him & try to work out what those cries mean.

It might work. It might not. But to misquote someone from the other thread, this too will pass, until it is replaced with another equally frustrating phase

Oh, and I'm no expert, but I'm sure I read that green poo = too much foremilk, which would make sense if he's feeing little but often.

Hi OP, I just wanted you to know that you have my sympathies too! I'm in exactly the same boat with DS, only he's 13 months now. We have the odd phase where things get slightly better and we get a lovely 4 hour stint, but these are very rare. We cosleep too, and I'm not sure whether it's helped or hindered. A bit of both I think. Sometimes having me next to him keeps him asleep, but sometimes I disturb him if I move. Often he's latched on for a lot of the night.
We did try refusing him milk in the night, and DP picked him up and rocked him, but he screamed for 1.5 hours and then was sick. This is all while being held! He's a wilful boy that's for sure. We've given up after that and are just waiting for him to get older and hopefully better. Lots of sympathy to you...

Just to add, our DS did scream for hours on end when we tried getting OH to do night time soothing. We had an horrendous Christmas/New Year as we thought we'd use his holiday time as the opportunity to make some changes. Fact is, dad was frazzled and felt out of his depth. Baby was desperate for mum. Mum was in other room crying. Nightmare. We only saw progress once I dealt with the issue with full determination and confidence that I wasn't hurting him by letting him be cross for changing things up and sticking to it.

Much sympathy x

Sorry I disappeared, we were away, so just got back to see all these sympathetic messages. I can't believe so many people have this, yet in real life most people seem to expect him to be sleeping 6 hour stretches by now. My first two were awful too, and I don't really expect to be getting a full night til they are 2 yrs old, but I would like a few hours 'off' in the night!

Fevrier - thanks for replying - I had seen your thread and spent a while trying to rock him to sleep - he screamed for up to 25 mins, but it improved to 15 mins, then suddenly he seemed to react much more strongly and wouldn't settle atall without feeding (teething??!). Your story gave me faith though! I'll look up your thread again.

flagnogbagnog - I have tried resisting him, and I can cope with a bit of crying, but its clear when he moves from protest, that can reduce, to full on panic screams, and the latter seems to happen at night! Your everyday me-time is a winner though, I do prioritise it more than before, as I can't afford to lose my cool at night, but sometimes it gets lost in the day, and even 10 mins helps me feel I've had some space from him.

Tancub - thanks for your empathy/sympathy! I may have to recruit DP more for some of the night, and maybe go out for an hour or so in the evening and see if DS2 will settle without me. I have got a sidecare arrangement, he did used to sleep in it! Now it stores the toys that are supposed to soothe him!

Mombojumbo - hope the experiment sees some success for you. Bet01 - poor you! that scenario is what I fear for DS2. So far any similar attempts have resulted in extreme screaming, once up to 45 mins as I was out, so I'm sure he could go longer.

ATruth - I've been looking at the High need thread since he was little - at first he felt like a high need baby, but he's improved loads in the day from about 3 mths and now loves the buggy and can cope in the car seat, so I feel fraudulent as he's only high need at nighttime! But he does live in the sling and has constant entertainment from the DC, so maybe if I was attempting to put him down he would be more challenging! I love your quote - it describes my parenting experiences so far. I also realised that 'just a phase, it will pass' can equally apply to good phases as well as difficult ones!

Thank you everyone for replying. I actually looked up my old threads for previous DC and sleep all very similar, and I wish I'd kept a record of how things improved, as I have no memory of how the DC got from the very frequent waking to the 1 or 2 times a night stage, and for DC2 I can't remember at all how we got her to sleep through!

I'll spend some time working out how we change something, even if its just more time out or regular naps for me. I'd rather avoid crying or working on it, as I know I survived it last time, and I'm generally coping much better than with the previous two. Thanks for all the sympathy and ideas .

Why suggest he's a 'high need baby'? He doesn't sound like one. Just one who's been given a boob to suck on every night so wants to continue doing it. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Babies who behave like this generally do it because they are 'encouraged' to do it from birth through co-sleeping and feeding to sleep. I appreciate it's hard, but why start off that way assuming you can keep it up long-term? If you can great, as it's probably the most natural way to raise a baby, but it's unrealistic to expect anyone to survive on broken sleep for months on end. It breaks my heart to read about so many babies who are then put through controlled crying to break this cycle which is has been set up by parents.

I'm sure I'll be totally flamed for my comments, I just wish the concept of routine from early on wasn't seen by so many as anti-nature. My daughter has never needed to be sleep trained because she wasn't given sleeping associations early on.

He was not fed to sleep, and slept separately in a sidecar cot for the first few months, plus he even slept 5 hr stretches in the early months. I put him down awake and sleepy, etc. with no luck. We have a routine that developed from his needs and our family needs. Its not fair to assume that he has always been fed to sleep, in the early months he would only feed to sleep about 50% of the time, the rest he'd either be soothed with a pat or be rocked, and in the first month he would go to sleep being gently held. You can't assume that frequent wakers and babies who prefer to be held/interacted with for the vast majority of time are like that because they are made that way.

I actually said he probably wasn't high need - just high need at night. I say that because I know my first was high need, a very difficult challenge for my first, night and day. And my second baby was very easy, though a frequent waker. They had the same mother, with lazy feeding and sleeping habits, and probably no routine .

How do you do naps? I think my dd accepted rocking because that was always how I did naps.

Might sound mad but could you use the car for a few evenings to get baby to accept not regular breast?

I think no cry solution works but v v slowly. Do you have the book?

My dd is 8 months and starting to understand more. I think that must be what gets us there in the end but I too can't imagine how I will get her sleeping thru at this point!

Lastly, until people have had more than one baby they can't believe how different babies are. I didn't.

I agree good an bad phases really are just phases.

Hi Fevrier, at a push we could try car in the evening, or buggy. The real need is if I'm out (I have hopes of this!), and then DP can't go out at other two are in bed. But it would be an option for a months time when we have a date booked, and grandparents are currently dreading the babysit attempt!

For naps, in the morning if we're home he goes in a rocking chair, and 9/10 will sleep for 2-3 hours in it. If not in that usually its a 45 min nap, or if disturbed a 20 minute nap (even if in the sling). I have to be out and about a lot for school run etc, and can't do much on a nap routine, but maybe when he drops to 1 nap I could work one in.

I have NCSS, hidden in a box somewhere, I'll dig it out again.

Last night was quite funny. I was determined that he'd had a feed at 7.30pm, and seemed not that keen for the milk, but it was a big feed, then he'd gone in the side-cot ok, but asleep. He woke as usual after 45 mins, very awake, and I tried to be 'firm' and rocked him, wrapped him up, cuddled him, tried to pat him lying down. He was furious and did a massive dirty nappy within 15 mins. So then had a nappy change, was very awake and didn't go back to sleep til 10pm!

Oh I really feel for you. Been there. Sleeps still not great here but better than it was. There are degrees of bad nights aren't there.

I ended up at 5am sleeping on the floor with my dd as she went to bed at 6pm so 11 hours later she wasn't tired enough to sleep in her cot after her 5am feed. But the encouraging thing is that she agreed to just lie down and cuddle and sleep (for 15 minutes). Now this is bad too (cosleeping and all that and i have been up since 5am with 2 other night feeds and my toddler woke at some point too) but at least she can now go to sleep (in the right conditions) without sucking or motion.

What I am trying to say is that 2 months ago it had to always be sucking or motion but she is slowly learning and getting older all the time. My DH (who is of the CIO school of thought) says she will grow up and that will sort her out! I am hoping stopping b feeding at 12 months will help too.

If your DH could drive your baby around for hours (!) or push a pram, then he might break the constant expectation of nipple in mouth? What are your evenings like? I found I was going back to her every hour to settle her and once I stopped picking her up (but rocked her in the cot with LOUD White noise) she got the hang of it v quickly.