Advice on sleeping longer at night

[bunnyrabbit]

Need some advice.
DS is 7 wks and since I've had to formula feed I've been loosely following GF for sleep and feed times, but about 30 minutes later, so my dh can enjoy bathtime. DS has always been good at going straight to sleep after a night feed and will lay in his cot in the mornings quite happily gurgling to himself, as long as his isn't hungry. But we have a worrying trend.

I feed him at 10.30/11pm and he used to wake up at 3ish and happily take only 3oz (normally give 5oz in a day feed) and go back to sleep till 6.30/7 ish. He has now started waking up at 1.30/2 and crying after his feed. He then wakes again at 5 ish.

Last night I gave him another 2 oz after the 2 o'clock feed and he still cried for another 30 mins befor ehe settled at 3.15. He then woke at 5.15!! I left him talking to himself until 6, fed him 4 oz and then had to lay with him on my chest for 30 mins to get him to sleep. Haven't done this since he was 3 weeks old. He threw up twice and eventually nodded off. He has reflux, so it's not unusual for him to be sick, and he is on gaviscom and his cot is raised, but I'm not sure it's the reflux causing the problem.

I fed him 3oz at 8 so we could get back to our normal routine, and now he seems fine.

The change in times to two night feeds instead of one has been going on for a week now, although the crying after a feed onlty started last night.

GF reccomends not upping the 10.30pm feed until all other feeds have been increased, but DS is already taking 30oz in a day, which is more than reccomended for a 10 1/2 lb baby. Also I iknow I should be cutting down the numer and amount of nightfeeds, not increasing them.

I don't understand why he is happy to go 4 hours between feeds during the day, but only 3 or less after the 10.30pm feed.

One night, after feeding at 6.30, I decided to leave him and see how long he'd sleep. He went to 11.30 so I know he can go 5 hours.

Yours concerned
BR
PS sorry about the long post.

What suggestions do you all have for training a baby to learn to sleep by itself withou using CC ???? Since I now gather that it is not such a great idea at such a tender age ? Is it normal for one so youn g (2 mths ) to wake ageter 20-30 mins ? at each nap ?

Cords, I don't know your child but what I do with many babies is to put them to sleep 2 hours after they woke (maybe 2h30 after yours woke as he is older) - when they are STILL awake. I do this in a very calm, matter of fact manner. Sometimes (esepcially at the begining) they cry but I pick them up, cuddle them, sing softly and put them down again. No baby goes on to cry for more than 30 secs. BUT I may wait 30 secs - as sometimes it's only a 10 sec. cry.
My DS was a VERY difficult baby when he was born but at 2 weeks old I decided to do this and within 5 days he was really good. DD was even better !
Both my kids always did 3 naps a day (at least 2 hours at lunchtime). I find that babies who don't sleep well during the day, sleep poorly at night. It is worth (IMO) making an effort for 3 or 4 days to tackle this.... and it is BEST achieved if you make this your main task not with 101 things to do as well.... otherwise you loose your patience very quickly and that is guaranteed not to work.

cords & bunnyrabbit - another thing I found useful was to put a piece of muslin that I had been sitting on under dd's head when I put her down (when she was sleepy this is) - I think the cold sheets in the cot can be what wakes them up.

mmm interesting. DS does actually sleep well during the day and only in the past few days has he had trouble staying asleep for his two hour lunch time nap, but we're persevering.

I suppose I have two problems at the mo

1. DS not wanting to go down at night. He is tired and has been awake more than two hours and we do have a musical mobile. He has tantrems and cries. Doesn't make a lot of difference when you hold him, but we do anyway.

Not sure I understand what you mean about crying for 30 secs? DS cries for a lot longer than this. He eventuallty falls asleep in DHs arms when he's worn himself out and then we put him down, usually about 8.30. This isn't really a big problem ... 8.30 is pretty good, but it's so distressing that he gets himself in such a state. Problem is that he doesn't always stay down and then it's a battle to get him back to sleep. He always (cross fingers) goes back down after the 10.30/11 feed.

2. Not knowing how to get him to sleep longer... Have been feeding him at 11 and he now wakes up at 4 for a feed, which is good but when I try to feed him less at the 4am feed, he has a fit!!

BR

br - 7 weeks is still very young: you probably shouldn't be starting to cut down on the 4am feed just yet (we started that at about 12 weeks).

As for the bedtime shenanigans - is it possible he is too tired by then? Have you tried putting him down half an hour earlier?

He will settle down eventually!

BR - I mean when I put a baby down and he cries for 30 secs I pick him up, calm him down and put him back down.... if he cries again, I wait 20 to 30 secs, pick him up and put him down again... at that game you can be busy for 1 hour BUT it does work.... it means : Baby you need to sleep, I am not abandoning you but we're not doing anything else.... you need to sleep !

Lucy123... have tried earlier, makes no difference.... he just keeps the little tantrems going until 8/8.30. Want to cut down on the 4am feed cos he isn't that interested in his 7/7.30 feed, unless you have any other suggestions of how to start encouraging him to sleep through.

Pupuce - sounds promising. I'll try this tomorrow night and see how we go. He's 9 weeks now so I suppose that 2 1/2 hours after he last slept should be a good time. How long do you keep it up for? Until he goes to sleep? What if he just doesn't calm down? There's no way I'm putting him in his cot if he's crying..... (I'm afraid I'm a bit of a softy really)

BR

Pupuce ... I hve tried the comfort thing at regular intervals to no avail ..

Could it be that now at 2 months, she has become too stubborn to train ??? I will try today for her morning nap to do as you say ... and if it fails I will have to do the old rocking constantly method or carry in baby sling so I can get a coffee ! If she does not nap, she does get very very upset and it ruins the rest of the day.

Do you all find that having a really dark room helps ?

BR ... I am so happy for you that yr DS wakes once at 4am for the feed ! My DD is so erratic ... She def doesn't need two feeds but it is the only way to get her to resettle after waking up the second time or first time at 1:30ish-2am ... she will not take a dummy , otherwise I wld gladly give it to her

Cords - Have you tried the ticking clock to settle her?

jampot ... not tried clock yet ... I somehow do not think that will work though if all the more aggressive techniques like rocking have not worked !

This morning , she started to get tired, so I placed her in her cot and patted her .. she cried and I let her as it was not yet fierce ...however, she did not relent and so i placed in bouncy chair, rocked patted ect ect ... after 30 mins I gave in , packed her in the baby sling and went out ...

BR , how do u manage to get your DS to sleep 4 hrs during the day ! Mine slept just 1.5 hrs yest !

Sorry, haven't been able to read the whole thread. Have you had a look at this one ? We found the hair dryer cd a godsend! When ds cries it goes on and he settles immediately (along with a bit of shhing and sleepy-byes). The track turns itself off after 10mins. I use it for day and night-time sleep.

Cords and BR - a baby who sleeps well during the day is happy/content and sleeps well at night tolo (even if he still waked to feed).
I keep it up until he stops crying and is going to sleep (NOT in my arms) but in bed. I have dealt with 8 newborns now (+ my 2) and I have to say that it does work but it does take perseverance. And YES it is in their cot to have a proper sleep in a DARK room. As i've said I am not a believer in letting babies cry - it doesn't work (and they are not too stuborn to learn at 2 months) and perseverance and consistency are well worth the effort.... unfortuantely a lot of mums can't (for many reasons) do that.

Cords, he sticks quite closely to what GF says. He's always tired by about 9ish and sleeps for 45 mins. Then sleeps from about 12 to 2 and then about 30 mins between 4 and 5. He would sleep longer and at other times if I let him, but then he's not tired in the evenings. I do play with him quite a bit to but also try to leave him in his bouncy chair or on the play Gym so he gets used to amusing himself. I also try and make sure that if I am going out, it's when he needs a nap as I know he'll fall asleep in the car.

Pupuce, my DH is trying the 'crying for 30 secs now'... unfortunately picking him up does not always soothe him as he has tantrums so I'm not sure if he'll actually get to put him back down in his cot until he's actually asleep in his arms.

BR

BR... during the day , does he fall asleep by himself ???

If only DD wld sleep that long during the day, even if I helped her to settle. the pm one is usually in pushchair. do u hve a darkened room ?

Pupuce ... I ghve tried sooo many times to do what u describe . IN fact for her morning nap (well out of GF schedue, at 8:15am but she woke at 6:15 ) I caught her 1st signs , put in cot and patted her and shhhhd hard and loud and it has worked ..so far 15 mins !!! she opened her eyes just now and I shhhd her back to sleep , but at least no rocking .... So , when you settle to sleep, do u just place in cot or do u shhh and pat then leave ect ???

Ah ha .. the half an hour cycle again ..she is now screaming !

Hi Cords,
Morning nap he generally falls asleep but I've been trying to catch him just before so I can put him down awake. Lunch time nap is the one I've been having problems with as we tend to be out and he's been waking after 45 mins and not going back to sleep. Stayed in yesterday and today to try and sort this.

Yesterday when he woke up I went in to see him and talked to him and calmed him down. We have a musical mobile so I wound it up and kept stroking his cheek, then I left him. He whinged for awhile but didn't actually cry, and then went back to sleep. Today he didn't even wake properly, just started talking to himself and whinging after about 45 mins, then he went off without me doing anything. He's still asleep now.

I do have black-out lining for his curtains, because his room is east facing, but haven't put them up yet. It doesn't seem to make much difference. I'm afraid I disagree with GF on this one. I don't like the idea that he has to have complete darkness to fall asleep. Babies prove time and again that when they want to sleep, there's not a lot that will keep them awake. (eg. 60 people in the same room as him!!)

Pupuce, thank you so much for your advice. Took DH 15 mins to get DS asleep. He woke after 10 mins and it took only a few minutes to get him back down. DH said as soon as he picked him up he calmed down and as he laid him in his cot he fell asleep. He had surrendered (you know, when their in deep sleep with both hands up either side of their head) by 7.50.

Here's hoping it goes as well tonight as I'm on my own....

BR

pupace.... you laugh but have never heard of gf!!... what am i missing what does she do....?

What can I say, Pupuce you are a genius. 20 mins tonight and he was out like a light. Went down at 7.15 and hasn't woken since. Hurrah!!!

BR

Tonight DH put him to bed and he stayed there!!! No crying, no fuss, just a bit of wingeing. Scarey and far to good to be true.

But then he did have a screaming fit at lunchtime and only slept for 45 mins so it's not all roses....

BR

Glad to hear you are finding my ideas useful
Keep at it though !

Cords - to your questiion "when you settle to sleep, do u just place in cot or do u shhh and pat then leave ect ??? " - do what ever feels right to YOU - but remain calm and confident - babies feel that.

Spod.... How ling have YOU been on Mumsnet.... and you don't know GF???? hmmmm (please read this with a HUGE smile on my face - not at all an attack but a tease )

Went down again tonight at 6.55!!!

However, I know have problems with the lunchtime sleep. Ho hum. If it's not one thing it's another....

Spod, there is much controversy concerning Gina Ford's Contented Little Baby book. Some people swear by her, others swear at her. I, like with most things, take the bits I find useful and ignore the rest. It's defnitely worth a flick through for sleep and feed schedule if nothing else.

BR

Hi BR/Pupuce, we tried the 30seconds etc. last night but with not alot of success, so I'm hoping you can help. When DH picks up DS he doesn't calm so he was going back into his cot still crying. This went on for 30mins before we resorted to our usual way, put on hair-dryer cd and say soothing words for a few mins. We've found we're now doing this every 2hrs throughout the night (cd etc), so we'd rather he settled himself if poss.

Just to clarify the technique:
-Put ds to bed after tired signs already in sleeping bag
-After 30s crying pick up, soothe, put back in cot [how long should the soothing last - 20s, 1min,10min? Must he be calm?]
-Walk away from cot [?], go back after 20-30s and repeat.

*What happens if ds doesn't soothe in dh's arms and he's there for 10mins?
*We tuck a light sheet over his sleeping bag to keeps his legs secure - should I 'tuck him in' each time I put him back in the cot?
*BR - did it really only take 15min the first time you tried this? Let me know your secret!

Please help!

Hi Karen
Here is my reply
Just to clarify the technique:
-Put ds to bed after tired signs already in sleeping bag - preferably early on of signs not when look knackered.... small babies it's about 1h30 after they woke, older ones (2 to 3 onths old) it's more like 2 hours...

-After 30s crying pick up, soothe, put back in cot [how long should the soothing last - 20s, 1min,10min? Must he be calm?]

Until he is calm... it may be 20 secs or 1 ins or longer

-Walk away from cot [?], go back after 20-30s and repeat.

yes

*What happens if ds doesn't soothe in dh's arms and he's there for 10mins?
Then he is ! - You want a comforted baby who doens't feel abandoned

*We tuck a light sheet over his sleeping bag to keeps his legs secure - should I 'tuck him in' each time I put him back in the cot?
Yes

*BR - did it really only take 15min the first time you tried this? Let me know your secret!

It may take you 45 or longer the first one or 2 days but it does get better.

Again.... CONFIDENCE/RELAX/HAPPY helps !

Thanks Pupuce. We'll give it another go tonight and over the weekend! Have a good one yourself.

Hi all
BR, glad to hear things are on the way to being sorted re bedtime.
The method Pupuce advises is similar to Tracy Hogg's advice in 'Sectrets of the baby whisperer', I've got this book and decided to give it a go for 10 week old ds2 last week. He was feeding well and sleeping well all day, bath and bed at 7 and a top-up feed at 10.30pm, but was waking every night at about 4.30am for a feed, and either not taking more than 1oz before settling back to sleep, or taking a full feed but then not wanting any milk all morning once he got up for the day about 7.30.
So the next night I got up when he started to cry at 4.30, picked him up till he was settled, then put him back down again. This carried on for a good couple of hours, although he did settle for about 10-15 minutes at a time before crying again. I was determined not to feed him as all the signs were there that he didn't need that feed (he weighs 14lbs 3oz by the way, from 8lbs 5ozs at birth.)He finally settled, and then fed really well all day, same again next night, then on the 3rd night he slept till 8.10am!!!!
I've also been putting him in his cot for his daytime sleeps as soon as he starts getting sleepy, using the same method to help him settle. I felt like this consistency was helping him at nights as well. He now goes down for these without much fuss too, previously I had to go and put his dummy in countless times before he finally gave in.

So I would also really recommend this method, it takes perserverance and confidence that you are doing the right thing. It also worked with ds1 from about the same age, who is 20 months old now and has always been a brilliant sleeper from then on.

Good luck

elena2,
Hadn't thought to try this method for getting rid of the 3-4ish feed. DS will take 5oz at this feed, although I've cut this down to 4 now and was going to keep cutting it down. Do you think I should keep cutting it down or try the 30 second settle method? DS is 10 weeks old on Sunday.

BR