Sleep training first night - I feel terrible!

[blackcurrants]

DS is 8 months old and hasn't ever been a good sleeper. Used to wake every 2 hours, then it went to every 3/4, then back to 2, then every 45 minutes for a few days (argh) and now is back somewhere between 2 and 3.

We've co-slept a bit, and now I have his cot set up with a single bed attached to it in 'his' room, and I start the night in our bedroom with DH, then go into DS when he wakes and either come back to our room or stay in the single bed, depending on how knackered I am. I BF him back to sleep, so sometimes drift off in the single bed.

I need him to wake less, I work and need more sleep. The plan is to send DH in to rock, shush, sing, offer dummy - frankly, anything DH thinks is best - but not me and therefore no boob.

DS went down to sleep (nursing) at 7pm. It's 8.20 and he woke up at 7.45, cried, I went in and fed him for 10 mins (it's only comfort sucking) and then crept out again. Now it's 8.20 and he's just woke again, and DH has gone in with a dummy and is rocking him and sssssshing.

DS is screaming his little head off and I feel so :(
I KNOW I could go in there and offer him a boob but I also know that at the moment he can't sleep without my help and the poor boy might get more sleep if there's no boob on offer.

Deeply conflicted about it as we've never left him to cry and don't want to. I think this approach could work - even if it means he wants a cuddle or a rock rather than boob, it would help! - but I hate, hate, hate hearing him scream.
PFB of me, probably - but argh! Someone tell me I'm not a monster!

You are not a monster. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
I have no personal experience in this domain yet but based on what I know from other people, the first night is always very tough and after the crying gradually stops.
IT WILL GET BETTER but you'll have to stick to your guns.

Your dh is with him, he isn't alone, so that is great. Seems like a good way to help improve the sleep situation.

You are far from a monster!

Yes, it's great you have a supportive dh.

Ok, ds2 is 4 months and I started sleep training 11 days ago. It has achieved what we hoped, ie he was unable to fall asleep without a boov in his mouth, unless we were out in the car..

From your post, to me it looks as if last night was a such a problem because you weren't consistent. If you really want to do this, you have to decide to NEVER allow him to fall asleep while feeding ever again. He will cry, but it will usually be because he's not getting his own way. BUT you will be there for him, and he will know that - in other words, you're not going to leave him sobbing on his own.

The method I used was shush/pat. When ds starts to seem tired (don't wait til he's grumpy), take him to his room, and put on grobag or swaddle him - whatever you normally do. Then, hold him UPRIGHT cuddled onto your shoulder, and do long calming sssssssssh noises past his ear (not into his ear), and pat him quite firmly and not too fast, in the centre of his back. Cuddle him tight, sing a song if it'll help settle him. Once his body relaxes, slowly place him into his cot, still shushing and patting. Ds2 liked being put on his side, then he'd roll onto his back when asleep. If he goes mad as soon as you put him down, keep shushing and patting to try to calm him. If it doesn't work then lift him and do the same again - on yr shoulder, shushing and patting (calmly! Try not to get tense or annoyed.). Again, as soon as he has calmed, put him gently in the cot.
The rules are -
Only lift him if he is full-on crying - shush and pat otherwise.
If he wails a few times but either pauses between wails or pauses after a few wails, he IS calming himself down, so don't ever lift him when he's doing this.
Never ever give in. He has to learn the new system quickly, so giving in is giving him mixed signals, and will result in him being more upset when you try again next time. If you know he's not hungry, don't start doubting yourself.
When you are initially calming him, and if you have to pick him up, always keep him upright. Do not cradle him as he'll think he's getting the boob, so will be upset when you don't give it to him.

Is this your first child? There will be lots and lots of times you'll have to deal with him being upset because he's not getting his own way, so you may as well get used to it now. And as I said, he's not being abandoned so don't feel bad. He's crying out of annoyance. And if you don't get this sorted soon, it'll get harder and harder to fix as he gets older. If he can't settle himself, this won't get better until you tackle it. And he won't hold it against you. He'll be full of smiles again when he wakes up.

Fwiw, ds2 has NEVER fed to sleep in the past 11 days, and goes to sleep sucking his thumb. He sometimes needs lifted once or twice but he never cries much when going to bed. He's better rested as a result. Oh, and it makes no difference if me or dh put him to bed - in fact, it was me who did it the first few days, so don't feel that it has to be your dh who does it.

There will be lots and lots of times you'll have to deal with him being upset because he's not getting his own way, so you may as well get used to it now.
well said vmcd

I don't agree with the whole 'getting is own way' thing at all! Ego isn't developed at that age fgs.

However, I totally agree that so long as the baby isn't being left alone to sob, they will be absolutely fine.

I've started sleep training with my DS today too. He's only 4 months, but after being a good sleeper has started waking every 90 mins at night. I'm doing the same as you - starting out with DH, and ending up in bed in DS's room.

My plan (which was actually formulated by our local parenting advice centre after I rang them to ask for help) is to put him down awake in his cot at the first sign of tiredness and then leave the room. When he cries, go in and pat and shush him in the cot until he's calm, then leave again. If he gets really distressed then I'll pick him up and calm him then put him back down. They advised me to limit to 4 calming downs, and if he's still not settling then just rock/feed to sleep and try again at the next sleep time. (This approach might make it take longer for him to learn, but it's less traumatic for me and him) I'm also bringing his bedtime feed forwards by 15mins so he won't fall asleep feeding.

He was fantastic for his first nap - cried for 2 mins then sucked his fingers and went to sleep. Mistimed it completely this evening and he got overtired and cried frantically for an hour, even when I abandoned sleep training and tried to feed him off to sleep.

It is hard listening to him cry but I'm there with him, and I know he's just expressing his frustration that things are different to normal.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're definitely not a monster, and that you're not alone. Hopefully both our babies will be sleeping better soon

Nethunsreject the point is, he's not crying it out and feeling abandoned. Fwiw, I can totally tell the difference between my ds when he's upset and when he's annoyed, so actually it is partly at not getting his own way - even if that's not how he might define it! He's annoyed that he's not getting what he wants.

However you look at it, he's not going to be scarred for life, so long as you or your dh is there to help him through it.

I'm not convinced about sleep training one night then feeding to sleep the next, tbh. That sounds really confusing for a baby. They won't know what the new system is if it's changed every night. Consistency is what makes it work

Sorry, the bold text went a bit wrong...

I totally agree with vmcd28 [waves]. If you are going to let them cry then at least see it through to the end. as bunnygirl so nicely demonstrates even when you abandon and go back to feeding to sleep it still takes ages once they have wound themselves up and actually by this stage the shush/pat will work just as well and take the same time IME.
The difficult time is 3am when you are wondering whether you are doing the right thing and whether it is all worth it - IT IS, DO NOT STOP.
My dd (18wo) will sleep in her cot or crib and settles easily with each nap or bedtime.
(She still wakes rather a lot but that's just her and at least I'm not having to pick her up/ rock her / feed her each time - quick stroke of the forehead and zzzzzzzzzzz)

I have to agree with VMCD28 too! nethunsreject you have not met my 5 month old dd!! She is a right monkey despite her youth. Unfortunately she has my exact character (as advised by my mother) and I'm having to be wise to it or clearly i am going to be in big trouble!

Gummymummy and Sedgiebaby [waves back and grins] have given me great advice over the past couple of weeks, and the fact that we're on day 12 without ds2 ever being fed to sleep shows it works. And I couldn't believe how easy it actually was, having dreaded tackling it for days. By day 2 I was already confident I'd manage to get him to sleep on his own without too much stress. And he's still the same happy baby he always was - he hasn't held a grudge!

Well, DH rocked and shushed until 3am, when I fed him (we agreed there'd be ONE feed a night, as he's still so hungry) and then he slept until 6.30, when we all get up.

So although DH didn't get a lot of rest, a pretty successful night. The aim of this isn't nightweaning OR DS to sleep 12 hours straight, tbh- it's just fewer night wakings, and only one feed a night. So in that regard, last night was a win!

Do people think I should stop feeding to sleep at all, then? For naps and everything? I just want him to have ANOTHER way of getting to sleep, and not need boob every time. I wasn't planning on withholding boob...

Tbh I would keep everything as consistent as possible. Feeding to sleep works but it's not achieving anything for the long-term. Your little one will eventually have to learn to sleep without relying on someone/something to do so. And if you do different things, it gives mixed messages. If you sometimes feed to sleep, then that will cause confusion and upset at the next sleep cos the routine has changed. When I started this, I did it with all sleeps, and it worked very quickly. Quicker than I expected, actually. If you can get good sleeping habits in place, then he will be well rested in the short term and have a good habit in place for the long term

gummymummy I'm well aware that the baby whisperer says you should just carry on. However, the plan I am using is from a professional organisation here in Oz that helps thousands of families each year. Their opinion is that to keep going for more than an hour with a 4mo is cruel and will only result in them becoming seriously sleep deprived. Their (and mine) opinion is that in a baby so young if they've not settled after an hour then they may be a reason - most likely hunger - so trying to feed them is actually completely appropriate.

I only posted on this thread to give blackcurrants some support, not to be held up as some sort of example of bad parenting, so I'll leave those of you who are clearly much better mothers than me to it

to be honest, bunnygirl80 I'm more of your mind - and it's something Elizabeth Pantley says in the No Cry Sleep Solution, too - gradual is okay if you're willing to be gradual, basically, and not expect instant solutions. What's interesting me about DS at the moment is that he's refusing to feed to sleep. bath - tired boy- pajamas - offered him a feed, and he's lying in his cot, exhausted, and cross if I leave him but not wanting to feed. No idea what to do, we're going in if he starts to cry and shushing and patting, but frankly, he doesn't seem to WANT to to BF to sleep.
He does want to sleep, though.

Argh, I wish I felt okay about just letting him wail, but I don't, and I have solid reasons, so I've got to feel my way towards another solution. Bloody difficult, though!

Blackcurrants, that's great if he doesn't want to feed to sleep. Have you tried putting him to bed earlier so he's not so tired? I think he sounds too wired to drop off. Try putting him down much earlier. In his room, play quiet music or white noise, and gently stroke his back or tummy til he's really relaxed and gently put him down. Keep patting/stroking. Stay with him till he falls asleep if you like in the beginning. No-one here is suggesting you leave him to wail, none of us believe in doing that either.

Ps. Remember the clocks go forward this weekend so if you have to settle him an hour earlier than you'd like, it'll only be for a few days. :)

VMCD: I think you're right, and earlier bed is a good idea. In an update, last night after his bath DS was rubbing his eyes and hungry, so I fed him with the intention of slipping away before he was asleep - and he fed for AGES then rolled away all wide eyed and ready for a game. Gah! we put him into his cot at 6.30 and he didn't fall asleep till nearly 9pm - lots of alternate crying, us going in, crying, him chewing his feet and chatting to himself, then crying....
Just when I thought I was going to go spare DH rocked him for 10 solid minutes while DS bawled and then suddenly went zOnnk asleep.

I have no blardy idea what's going on, but him not WANTING to feed to sleep any more is fine by me. As long as he still sleeps!

DH is a diamond, he really is. He's shushh-patting every time DS wakes in the night except for 2am, when be brings him to me for a feed and then takes him away again. I think we'll have reduced his night wakings by the end of the week, at least I hope so.

blackcurrants I have been doing no cry sleep solution for a few weeks, but just seemed to hit a brick wall at the transition from putting him down very drowsy to putting him down slightly awake.

I'm realising the key to all of this is putting them down at the first inkling that they're tired. Once DS is overtired he's hyper and can't settle himself no matter what.

I've just had my biggest success yet - put DS down for his nap and left the room, 5 mins later he was crying so went in calmed him, left again and 5 mins later he was fast asleep

Yeah - I couldn't get 'drowsy but awake' to work either, but (feeding to sleep) I did find the 'pull off' thing pretty good, as he does often roll over and sleep, now, rather than boob-clinging.

His naps are all over the place atm - DH had charge of him today (I had to work) and I came home to find he'd had two naps - an hour in the morning and 40 mins in the car this afternoon. Early bed tonight... so far he's stayed asleep. . . I do hate him going overtired, it's happening a lot at the moment. I wonder if it's because his tiredness signals have changed, or we're missing them, or something. I plan to watch him like a hawk tomorrow and do all in my power to make him sleeeep!

he woke 4 times last night - 10pm, midnight, 3 and 4am - that's a standard-to-bad night from when I slept in with him and bfed him back to sleep. DH got him back to sleep each time, but I did hope that without any boob he'd stop waking. I suppose it's a habit and habits take a while to break.

DH is doing SO well. I think he's knackered but I also think he's realising just how tired I've been, since I've pretty much done all nights for the last 4-5 months!

Blackcurrants, if you feel that you're missing his tired cues, try putting him down after 80 or 90 minutes, then adjust that the next time, if you feel it was too soon/late.

Make sure you're not rushing in to settle ds - don't shush him or pick him up unless he really really needs it. Ds2 often grizzles or cries for two or three wails, then calms himself down and goes back to sleep

Yes - the hovering-by-the-still-closed-door is a bit pathetic but it IS better than rushing in and waking him more than, perhaps, he's actually awake. One day I might even stay on the sofa!

Yesterday was infinitely better - naps are still a bit all over the place but he went to sleep at 6.30pm after a nice big dinner at 5, a bath, a story, a feed, and some sshhhing while I crept away from a drowsy baby. He woke at 11pm and 4am, then properly at 6.30am- which is SUCH a big improvement from 4 times a night that I am hoping and praying he keeps on this trend.

Oddly, he used be a great napper and worse at night. Since we've been working on his night time sleep his napping has been bad - tiny naps, or all -out nap refusal. I've just taken over from DH (3pm here) after a day at work and he's had 2x 45 minute naps at 9am, 11am, and then only about 25 minutes at 2.15pm... I am thinking of trying for another quick one in about an hour, its worth giving him the chance, at least!
The world is SO interesting to him at the moment, and he's trying to crawl. I think he's struggling to switch off, tbh!

Just out of interest, when he wakes from his 45 min naps, is he happy or crying? Ds2 wakes from every nap at 45 mins but has a whine and goes back to sleep. Perhaps your ds isn't actually ready to wake properly - 45 mins is the end of the first sleep cycle, so he maybe needs shushed back to sleep again? Ds2 needed this at the start of the sleep training - this is the only time I ran to him at his first whimper, to try to shush him before he even needed picked up. Shushing and some heartbeat sounds from his mobile sometimes did the trick, other times I did have to pick him up and resettle him, and others he wouldn't resettle at all. But now he sleeps up to 3hrs in the morning!

often he's crying because he wants to be asleep again. We do tend to wait rather than rush it at first murmur, but I've never seen him cry and go back to sleep - rather, he cries, and cries, and then SCREAMS until someone comes in. I think he'd like to be asleep (and on the times when we catch him early and shush and pat or feed) he goes back down for another 45 mins. But .. yeah. I've NEVER managed the whole 'let him cry and resettle himself because he just screams and screams. The only time he's been 'left to cry' was in a carseat when we couldn't pull over or get to him at all, and he screamed for 45 minutes until he fell asleep. :( It was awful.

Last night was a bad on. DH reckons he woke up every hour. One unpleasant result of this attempt at sleep training is he now WAILS on waking, because we weren't going in quickly and so now he seems to think he needs to be very loud or we won't go in. It's horrible to hear. We've been so consistent in what we are doing, but frankly he seems mixed up and miserable (and has a cough, which might be why last night was bad) and it all seems worse rather than better.

:(

And last night we did proper, pick-up, put down, shushhhpat responding to his cries, rather than DH shoving in a dummy and cuddling him as if, basically, he were breastfeeding.
At bedtime I fed him then handing him over, dozy but awake, to DH, and walked the dog for 45 mins. He cried for about 40 mins, and DH picked him up when he went ballistic, then put him down again when he was calm (upon which point he cried again AT ONCE... ohgod). :(
He woke about 4 times in the night, which is his usual sleep pattern, and each time one of us took 20-30 minutes to shush-pat him back to sleep, often picking him up and rocking him to calm down because we live in a little flat and have v. nice neighbours who can hear EVERYTHING and we don't want them to hate us. Also we hate hearing DS really scream.
It was, frankly, a horrible night. And now he's just gone down for his 11am nap (it's 11.40 and he's just stopped crying. DH has been in there the whole time, shush-patting). :(
This CANNOT go on. Please please tell me it gets better! We're giving it 3 more days and nights and then I might just give in and bf and co-not-sleep until DS goes away to college!