what is wrong with my DC? Why won't they sleep!! Very long, sorry :(

[25goingon95]

We have had 5 years now of rubbish sleep. DH and i agreed last night that there is no point in us going to bed. From the second we get in bed, our DC take it in turns to cry for no sodding reason. If we watch a film in the evening DH and i have to take turns to go upstairs and re-settle one or both of them 4 times in the space of 2 hours. We go up to bed and it continues. 14MO dc starts crying so im up to put her dummy back in. I get back in bed, she starts again. I do same thing over and over until i get into bed and it is silent. Usually an hour or 2 after i first got into bed.

A bit later (but not long enough for me to fall asleep), 5yo DC starts. She screams and cries really loud, nothing i say or do will stop her crying, just cry cry cry. Then when she comes round a bit she settles back down. I go back to bed. 2 Mins later she starts again. I go back in, re-settle her and go back to my bed. Maybe do this 2 more times. By this time usually 3 or 4 hours have passed since DH and i went to bed and we have not yet slept.

Then after about an hour of sleep for DH and I, 14mo DC starts again, appears to be wide awake. Usually lasts an hour or so. The more i try to settle her, the louder she screams at me. If we ignore her she screams louder. Then 5yo starts crying as she has been disturbed so DH goes in there and i battle with the baby trying to get her to lie down. End up giving her a 9oz bottle of milk some nights. All finally goes quiet around 4am but baby wakes crying a further 3 or 4 times, settles quickly then wakes for the day around 7am.

DH and i get around 3 hours of unbroken sleep a night, if we are lucky. DH works 12 hour days and i can't function in the day on so little sleep. Im ratty and exhausted. It is killing us, we feel ill. DD1 once went to stay at my mums but cried for me so came back at 1am. Thats it. We haven't had a night off for 5 years. DD1 was worse that DD2 as a baby though, she was up ALL night. I suffered terrible PND and anxiety at that time.

What on earth can we do?? Honestly, we dread night time and it upsets me so much to think that DH might dread coming home to us as he is just beyond exhausted :(

They both have a solid routine, both eat well, drink lots, they are very happy children. 14MO has one nap a day after the school run in the morning, lasts around 2 hours. They both go to sleep by themselves no problem at 7pm.

The problem is as soon as they cry we jump to them. So it is our fault isn't it. But we have left them, and they have both cried and screamed until they were sick. No fun at all changing a cot and a bed at 3am. Plus not good for them to get so worked up.

What can we do? Any advice? :(

I would seek some specilaist advice from your HV or local sleep clinic. Sounds like you are going to have to instigate a CC routine al la super nanny. It does work though and you will all feel alot better for it. The proffesional should be help you sort it.

I have done CC before with DD when she was a baby but can't remember what age, she was abe to stand up in her cot so possibly a bit older that DD2. Is it ok to do CC at 14mo? Im thinking of getting her cot downstairs tonight for a week and sorting this out.

Thanks for your reply. I know the sleep clinic/HV is the next step for us :(

Poor you and your dh. You're right that something needs to change. I second clarkey46's suggestion that you seek specialist help. I have read good things about sleep clinics on here (Millpond is one I think?). If you can cobble together a couple of hundred quid it could be the best money you have ever spent.

Short of that, I can only offer advice re the baby as I only have a one-year-old. Something that has worked really well for us is a version of PUPD (from Baby Whisperer) for older babies. You stand by their cot- actually I stand by the door so I can make my escape more easily!- and repeat key words eg "lie down, sleepy time, night night" each time they stand up, and just lie them down again.

You may have tried this already of course. For us we had to stick with it for a few nights (hard when you are so knackered and have another dc. Could you each take responsbility for one child maybe?). Her wake-ups got shorter and shorter. Now generally we can leave her for two minutes when she wakes, she complains a little then self-settles back to sleep. If we do need to go into her we just repeat the "lie down" routine. We'd pick her up if she got really upset, and put her straight back down- but tbh this rarely if ever happens.

I believe that at over a year old they are old enough to understand when you explain it's sleepytime. But on the other hand, young enough to experience separation anxiety, so I would not want to leave my dd to cry. For me this is a happy medium.

With any kind of sleep training I have found that consistency is vital. Try one thing and stick to it for a few nights at least, and don't resort to an anything-goes approach in the wee small hours. If nothing else, it will become so boring to your baby that she'll not bother to fuss!

Hopefully others will have advice re your 5 year old. My instinct would be that you need to get a bit tough.

Thanks shushbaby.
Thanks for the info about PUPD. Will show DH this when he gets home.

We do need to get tough. Im up for it, i may take charge of baby downstairs and try to get this sorted using the method you describe.

Im dreading tonight. I feel ill and panicky today. Im exhausted.

I wouldnt necessarily get the cot downstairs. I think it is best to have bedroom as a place of safety and routine. 14m should be fine for CC. LIke Shushbaby says consitancy is vital. Kids know more than we give them credit for and are aware that you will jump when you cry. You could try sitting in the doorway until she goes to sleep and slowly withdraw as time goes on. This worked for a friend of mine. I dont think you should have to pay for a sleep clinic. there should be one available via your HV. Recognition that you can do something about it is 1/2 the battle

Poor you, I'm a first time mum so little advice except to second PUPD because my SIL used to great effect with their 14/15 month old. I've used a version of it for my 5 month old. Not sure for the older children, getting specialist help and support is what I would lean to I think.

Yes your right, best to keep DD in her bedroom. Was just trying to minimise the noise upstairs for DD1 and DH.

I will try the PUPD tonight. See how we get on. We are off to baby clinic next week for weighing so will see if HV can help.

Good luck. I know you will be happy once it is done. You must be shattered

Good luck. Don't put on a brave face for the HV at all, tell her how desperate you are and that you need help.

Thanks clarkey :)

Im afraid i will cry all over the HV if i don't keep a brave face She'll have me carted away im sure!

I know what you mean, i will tell her how it is. Thanks x

CC crying has very quick results usually. I did it with my DD at 14 months and within 3 nights she was sleeping through. I was dreading doing it but got the confidence from a book called 'teach your baby to sleep through' or something like that!I also bought the Millpond book which was useful.
I have recently done CC again with my DS who is 9 months and had great results again.
Not sure if this works with a 5yo but worth looking into.
Once you have made a decision to tackle this you will feel much better.
Good luck.

Oh my godness, you could be me...i was coming on to contemplate posting something similar. We are both starting to get ill through sleep deprivation. my next step is to try my GP;I did aak the HV for help but she never got back to me . our situaiton is slightly different; DC1 is a bit younger and is often not awake when shouting and getting upset, DC2 tends to wake because of the noise of DC1.

I will watch your thread with interset and be right back if I have any breakthroughs...
good luck.

Olivo, DD1 age 5 is often not awake when she is screaming and shouting either!! She is definately not doing it for attention or playing up, she doesn't know she has been awake half the night. She says sorry when i tell her she has cried most of the night :( Poor thing. It is really tricky, we have no idea what to do about her. Sorry you are having these problems too!

Mumcah, we had very fast results when we used CC with DD1 as a baby!! 4 nights after we started she was sleeping much better (still cried sometimes but we didn't have to go to her as often) I do feel better now i have a plan of action! Thanks :)

We put both DDs down at 8pm tonight instead of 7pm. Baby DD sat up and threw her dummy out of the cot straight away so we are in for another brilliant night im sure. I wish we never gave her a dummy

Thanks for all your support! Will let you know how we get on!

DD1 is crying already....sigh.

25goingon95 - I'm sorry you are having such an awful time of it, it sounds terrible. Not surprised you and DH are exhausted.

I have a 6yo and a 16mo so hopefully can offer a few suggestions for both your DC....

Re the toddler - I would agree with whoever posted about the PU/PD thing. Definitely a more softly-softly version of sleep training - it might take a bit longer, but it will work, providing you are consistent. I had sleep difficulties with DS1 around this age (though to be fair he had been a brilliant sleeper before this age, so I had nothing like what you have to contend with in terms of cumulative exhaustion) and PU/PD really sorted him out.

The other thing I would say is ditch the dummy. I know that might be the last thing you want to hear but from what you write I wonder whether many of your night disturbances from your toddler are triggered by dummy falling out etc...

Re your 5yo...Again, DS1 has gone through various periods of being unsettled for various reasons and we have had some success with the following (apologies if you have tried any or all of these already!)

nightlight - either dimmer switch or glo-plug can work well if fear of the dark etc is an issue

bribery - might DD respond to some kind of star chart, treat in the morning if no screaming in the night? Or a special toy to keep her company so no need to cry out for mummy?

diet check - I know this sounds a bit mad but what does she eat in the late afternoon/early evening? Is there anything that might be hyping her up/unsettling her in terms of sleep? We definitely discovered a link between DS eating cheese at suppertime and night wakings, for example.

try to avoid overtiredness - this is a tough one for you because I would imagine your DD is also chronically exhausted through cumulative lack of good quality sleep - the toddler can catch up a bit with the daytime nap, she can't. I do wonder from what you write {"when she comes round a bit she settles back down") whether she might be susceptible to nightmares or night terrors for example? Does she always remember her nightwakings or is she sometimes unaware of them the following day? If she doesn't remember, it's possible that some of the wakings are night-terror related, and these are often linked to overtiredness. DS1 is very prone to night terrors and they definitely got worse around age 5, when he started school. An earlier bedtime can help; might be worth trying to bring her bedtime forward by half an hour or so, see if this makes any difference?

The only other suggestions I have just relate to how you deal with her when you have to go in to her in the night - best thing I've found is to be as consistent as possible, and to say the same thing every time (this would apply to them both to be honest) and keep things very brief i.e. mummy's here, mummy loves you, it's night time, go to sleep, and say this and only this no matter what she comes back with...

I am sure some others will be along with additional advice shortly - I hope you also get some help from your HV/GP. If none of the above is any use (or even if it is) I think seeking advice from a specialist sleep clinic would probably be a sensible thing to do; you can't go on like this. Good luck.

sorry cross posted - just seen your post re her not being aware of them. I would say from that that she is almost certainly having some kind of night terror...if earlier bedtime etc don't help then definitely seek some specialist advice on it. If she's not aware of it, then suggestions re bribery etc won't help!

Oh gosh - it sounds truly dreadful - so sorry you are going through this. Have you looked up 'night terrors'? It sounds like this is what your DD1 is having if she isn't awake and has no memory of waking up.
Would either of them sleep any better in bed with you or in the same room?

cross posts - sorry!

It sounds very much like night terrors, especially with DD1. The fact you can't comfort her and she can't remember the episodes are a big clue. DD2 may be getting the same, or may be disturbed by the noise. And neither of them getting proper sleep is making things worse - poor you.

Olivo - yours may be the same too.

My DS1 had a few, we used to hold him (tight!) by an open window and look at the view and he would come round and go back to sleep. We discovered the hard way, but changes of temperature and location are some of the official suggestions. Another is to break the sleep pattern by waking the child briefly 15 minutes before an episode usually starts.

If your HV and other sleep techniques don't work, go and see your GP. No-one should be suffering so badly for so long.
Good luck

oops - mega crosspost. Wandered off in the middle of typing mine.

dietcoke thanks for your post. Yes i think DD is having night terrors. I just went up to her as she is crying already and found her stood in the middle of her room crying, eyes open and staring, arms outstretched and grabbing iykwim!!! She was screaming and crying...she hasn't been asleep long!! I managed to get her back into bed and she went straight back to sleep. Wierd. We find her in all sorts of positions crying and shouting. She is always talking in her sleep too. We could try bringing bedtime forward...she has always been an early riser (between 5 and 6am) and i worry she will be up at 4am if she goes to bed earlier! Then she would be tired for school. Hmm, will probably give it a go anyway incase she is over tired. She always looks tired.

RE: The dummy. I know. We haven't got the energy to get rid of it at the moment evern though we know it could be what is causing this! We will get rid, it is the only way forward.

I'd speak to the GP about your DD1 - definitely sounds like night terrors as they commonly occur in the first few hours of sleep.

DD2 sounds like an averagely bad sleeper! We sorted the dummy thing by getting a lot and attaching them to various clips and muslins so that DD could find them easily when she woke up. She is still very attached to her dummies now though at nearly 2 (although only has them for sleeping) so you might want to save yourself future hassle by getting rid now.

Thanks autumnwitch and mrsjuan. I took ages typing mine and missed your two!

Baby DD is still in with us because we can't use her bedroom at the moment.

Thanks for that about changing location and temperature, i could open the window in DD's room and see if that will stop her screaming.

I have lots of good tips here thanks everyone! I feel much better about the situation now. I just hope some of these work for us!!

I can never tell when these terrors will start so struggle with waking her 15 mins before. They don't follow a pattern with DD, although it is usually around midnight come to think of it. But sometimes not. May have to keep a note of them i think.

I think you have 2 different and separate problems.

I think baby dd is probably waking due to overtiredness, losing dummy, maybe tummyache or other external factors.

DD sounds very overtired. My dd sleepwalks/talks, but ONLY if very overtired.

Early nights with about an hour of winding down time made a big difference to dd. Also - aromatherapy massage with lavender inthe evenings really helped, as did soothing music/story CDs once in bed. A night light can help.

A sleep clinic is your best hope IMO.

Good luck.