Don’t want to do CC – is ignoring cries of ‘Mummy’ the same thing though?

[Ktay]

DD is 21mo and since separation anxiety kicked in at 9 months I have hardly ever been able to get her off to sleep without stroking her back. I?m OK with this when it works quickly but increasingly ? particularly now she?s got the vocab ? there is lots of buggering around demanding different soft toys and extra stories before I can even get her into her cot. Then it often takes her ages to switch off and I think the stroking is actually proving a bit overstimulating. But whenever I try and stop she?ll say ?Mummy stroke!? so I have to just stand there getting a dead arm until she finally drifts off.

I?ve had a couple of half-hearted attempts at gradual withdrawal (need to buy and read the book properly though) but she still insists on the stroking. The only thing that has been vaguely successful is telling her I?m just going to get a glass of water or similar and sometimes she?ll drift off of her own accord by the time I get back. This is usually after a lot of back-stroking though.

I know she can self-settle as DH (when he?s around ? he travels a lot) and nursery can just stick her in a cot and she?ll drift off. The reason I?m particularly keen to sort the problem is that the later she goes down (and when it?s me it?s a long, drawn-out process), the more likely she is to wake during the night and to start the day at 5-something. I aim for an early bedtime whenever possible but with nursery pick-ups this isn?t always feasible.

Anyway, that is all a lot of waffle before getting to the nub of my question, which is: can I get away with ignoring the ?Mummy!? cries for a few mins and seeing what happens? CC isn?t for me but would this essentially be the same thing? I?m a bit worried that this is an attachment issue so don?t want to do anything to make that worse. I think that in trying to avoid the crying, I?ve generally always been a bit quick to respond to the slightest grizzle ? so that prob hasn?t helped matters.

Thanks for reading and for any thoughts or helpful tips.

gah sorry dodgy formatting from c&p - was sure it was ok when I previewed. Maybe it's the sleep deprivation!

So glad you wrote this as am experiencing the same thing! Back to chat when ds (24 months) let's me.

I have a few ideas but need someone to share these with - maybe we can help eachother????

Mummy stroke is what I hear every bedtime and from early hours.

Sorry you're having the same problems but it's good to know there's someone else going through similar! Look forward to chatting more later. Am 'working' today so will check back in intermittently.

I would try ignoring the mummy cries and see what happens.
I too thought CC was cruel but did it with DD (11.5 months) last week and it only took one night. What I did was let her cry for one minute, went in and soothed her, left it 2 mins the next time then 3 mins and so on. We never got to 7 mins and she's self settled for the past 6 nights thereafter. She was rocked to sleep from birth and getting up sometimes 6 times a night for feeds and rocking to sleep but now she sleeps 12 hours straight.
You could do much the same thing, ignore her crying mummy and go in after a min just to let her know you are there but gradually leave it a bit longer each time so you are not jumping to her demands and she has to work harder to get you in the room so eventually she won't bother.
The other main thing is not to engage in conversation when you do go into the room after the first time just reassure her with touch or say "shhh" but don't talk to her.
CC doesn't have to mean letting them scream their lungs out until they fall asleep, I think that is unfair and distressing for both patents and children.

Thanks Catwhiskers, you must feel like a different person now the sleep has improved! I could give something like that a try provided it doesn't result in crying - still not sure I'm ready to handle that. I def need to start taking a firmer line with various elements of the whole bedtime routine though, some of it is getting a bit out of hand.

We did a sort of very gradual withdrawal at bedtimes when we wanted to stop it taking ages getting our DS to sleep & I found the most important aspect was communicating the process to him. I don't know if you are doing this already but will put some of it down anyway in case of some help.

If you are not doing it already then I would suggest gradually starting to talk about the bedtime process & what will be happening, being very simple but quite explicit, starting from bathtime or whatever begins the wind-down to bed & don't forget to include the end, maybe something like you will stroke her for 5 mins or for three songs or whatever (good to have something definite to time it). Then at the end do something physically different to signify the end of the stroking, like a little rub or pat & make your exit. If/when there is protesting say you will be gone to do something specific or for 5 minutes, give a reason, but will come back (if you are ok with that approach) & do another 5 mins of stroking then you can repeat, leave a longer time or possibly end up staying until she has got used to you not being there so much.

I found it was very hard to make myself leave if DS was protesting - despite finding staying very frustrating - so I used to say very firmly (to myself as much as anything!), that is what Mummy is doing & that is what is going to happen! That seemed to give me a boost to follow it through. Good luck!

Some good tips here elvisgirl, thank you. I think you're right that a certain degree of determination to make it work is key to success, whatever the methods used. I like to think I'm pretty consistent but if I'm honest there is probably room for improvement.

So back with a minute! Our background is that this is a recent thing post Christmas and illnesses - I am pregnant and tired anyway so not sorting it out with much enthusiasm!

I have done cc in past for breaking a) falling asleep on bottle habit and b) rocking to sleep post illness but totally Hated It and think once they can communicate then it is pretty harsh anyway.

The idea to communicate is great. I want to formulate a gentle plan where it is explained to him - maybe make a book with photos? Then withdraw slowly - either moving away from bed or going in and out or both - withdrawing to door and then going in and out.

My current BIG problem is my ds is dropping the nap so I really don't know where I am with bedtimes or whether to give nap, wake from nap or let nap. If he does nap then it seems he isn't that tired at bedtime! Oh dear. No wish to hijack thread though.

I would say (advice I can't take myself) stRt to withdraw having explained - as suggested. Do it slowly but stand firm. And decide your allowed words such as "go to sleep shush".

Can we tell them where we are in the room? I had withdrawn out of the room before this last illness! But he talked a lot to me to check I was there!

The reason I need to get him to settle alone is that from 4.30 he wakes and needs a pat and my presence to sleep for another hour or so - I find it hard to get back to sleep. So I am often awake from then onwards even if he dozes a bit more.

Have you read the no cry toddler sleep book? Ideas in there. I really want a gentle sleep consultant to tell me exactly what to do!!! Trouble us I know I will be back here in a month after yet another illness. They always ruin good habits.

Thanks Dycey - hadn't appreciated she'd done a toddler-specific book, have ordered it. According to Amazon she helps you distinguish between genuine cries and protest cries, which I think I'll find a real help.

I know exactly what you mean about the sleep consultant (short-term effects) which is why I've always stopped short of it. If I had gone for it though, I'd have tried Andrea Grace or Millpond - both have 'gentle' options. (Also looked at Chireal Shallow although she was on a C4 programme where the methods got mixed reviews.)

Will try and be a bit more detailed tonight in talking about the different steps that are involved at bedtime, that sounds like a good place to start.

Hijack away re nap issues as I'm in the same quandary too. I am finding it harder to get DD down for a nap and invariably end up taking her out in the buggy. (DH and nursery manage it though.) Have experimented with cutting it to an hour just so she'll be tired for an early bedtime - I figure if she's going to wake up at 5.30am regardless she might as well have had a longer stretch, and I think as she's gradually become less overtired that's helped a bit with the dawn wakings - but it's hard to tell really.

I'm pregnant too - not due till autumn but keen to make some progress before then so she doesn't associate this with the 'interloper'. It's tempting to take path of least resistance but in some ways the first-trimester fatigue is the incentive I need to sort things out finally.

Well that was encouraging, although I've learnt from bitter experience not to get too excited about apparent improvements. I told DD ad nauseam about what was lined up from bathtime onwards - emphasising that it would just be the three books tonight; let her choose the three books and hid any others out of sight; and was careful not to engage in any conversation once she was in the cot.

It was all a lot calmer although she insisted on me singing throughout (got it down to humming in the end) and I didn't dare try and stop the stroking. But I am cautiously optimistic that if I keep these three things in mind, we can start to work on other improvements eventually. Thanks everyone for the ideas and fresh pairs of eyes!

I ended up patting til he was well away. He ate absolutely no supper and seemed v v v tired so not sure what's up. Definitely going to be a thing to not sit and pat - when he is well.

What excuse can I give? I need to knit? Read? Rest my arms?

I am sure it's worth them learning or relearning to fall asleep alone. It was this that got my ds sleeping through a year ago - putting him in the cot awake every time. I can't believe I am thinking about it all a year later. But it feels like a totally different situation with a toddler - plus I am always inclined towards no resistance path!

Oh and tho it's hard to see a pattern I think my ds can cope for a day or two with no nap but after that his night sleep goes to pot.

I have to use the pushchair to get him to sleep. He just got used to it for many reasons!

Yes, it's harder in some ways with a toddler but at least being able to communicate helps a bit. I gave DD lots of praise on Monday morning for having a 'lie-in' (6.15 pffft) and she has been going on about her 'long sleep' ever since. (Unfortunately the last few days I've had to say 'No DD, you didn't have a long sleep last night...')

Last night wasn't great, she woke up 4 times although was quick to settle back each time fortunately (did it herself once actually).

DD can fall asleep alone when it's not me putting her down so you'd think she'd remember what to do in the middle of the night. Unfortunately it turns out that shouting 'mummy stroke!' is preferable.

Glad I'm not alone in using the pushchair for naps. Think I'll just have to suck it up now the weather's improving rather than battling with her to sleep in her cot.

I also have this with DD aged 2.6. "Mummy massage" or "Mummy scratchy" are demanded at bed time.

IME, the nights she manages to get to sleep without my rubbing/scratching her back are the nights she sleeps better and doesn't wake up until morning. Best of all are the nights she lets me leave her bedside whilst she's still quite awake.

If I've helped her to get to sleep by rubbing her back, she will sometimes call for me in the night to do the same again. I try to wait a minute or two to see if she'll go back to sleep by herself. It's about 50/50 whether she does or not.

It also depends on how tired I am and how much patience I have with her that day, to be honest, as I'm pregnant with DC2 and sometimes just want to go to bed myself!

DD def also sleeps better if she's gone off without help. The 3 nights this week where DH has put her down, she's slept through. The nights where I've had to do it because she's been away, there's been all the stroking to get her off to sleep then at least one night waking thereafter.

Apparently my NCSS has been dispatched so will read that with interest over the weekend for more tips!

Similar problem here, my 19mo will only go to sleep lying on my lap, and then i transfer him to the cot. Lap rapidly disappearing (5mths pg) and he now finds it hard to get comfy on there. But attempts to put him in the cot are met with wails of 'Knee! Knee! Knee!' Really need to get him falling asleep by himself before next baby arrives. Have also ordered the Pantley book for toddlers now. Am thinking about getting DH to put him to bed for a while, but I know that will cause frantic wails of 'Mummeeeeeeee' and distraught crying - esp since he'll know i'm just in the room next door, putting DS1 to bed (a much quicker process). I don't think I can just leave him screaming in the cot, would feel too cruel, and he's not one to give up easily!

Is there any way you can contrive some excuse to leave the house in the evening and get DH to put them both to bed? DD used to kick off if she knew I was around so last weekend we went through the charade of me going out to the shops for a few evenings (I'd then sneak back once she was in the bath). Last night I just sat quietly in the living room and she was fine.

Good idea ktay.

Once you get more confident, what I do is just make up some excuse why I have to go downstairs (the cat is crying, I'm not feeling well, I need to do xyz) and if she's in the right frame of mind DD will let me go before she's asleep.

(And this is without my DH around to settle her.)

Hello all, I used a gradual withdral type approach with my DD1 when she was 18 months ish which worked really well albeit slowly!
I was having to sit and cuddle her to sleep and then put her into bed (well, inch her in carefully, carefully if you know what I mean!)

I told her that tonight I would sit by her cot and pat her back (which is the stage I think you are at OP?) Did this stage for a few nights - know what you mean about the dead arm!

Then told her I would sit with her but not pat her. Did this for a few nights. In reality for a bit I had to pat her a bit every now and then.

Next stage I moved a bit away from bed and just sat with her while she fell asleep.

Then I sat by door, I did this stage for Waaaaay too long as I was too scared to try going out the door in case she cried and I ended up with a CC situation. Anyway, I braced myself, told my DD I would wait oout side but would come in and check on her if she was lying quietly trying to get to sleep.

I started off by literally waiting about ten seconds before going in, quick pat, "good girl, have a lovely sleep, mummy be back in a minute to check on you"

The waited a little longer etc etc.

Reality - she did shout out a bit for a few nigths. Not crying just shouting out. I would still wait a bit and then go and do the same patting and checking.

It worked really well and stopped her night wakings too. Even now at 3 and a half, I still go back in after 5 mins or so to check on he. Most of the time she is fast asleep but she likes to know she will be checked on.

Anyway, big long, rambly message from me. Not too boring I hope.

No not boring at all bubbles, thanks for taking the time to set out all the steps. Encouraging to hear of such a positive outcome!

Ah great posts since I checked. Ds is well tonight so have bitten the bullet and in the bath told him that I am going to sit on the floor and read and won't be patting him any more. He looked surprised so I said that ds is not ill and mummy needs to read a book. We told his Pa together and he was absolutely fine about it. Went to sleep with no demands and me iphoning on his floor. Just waiting til he is totally asleep now. Very encouraged indeed! Think he will be ok if I explain what to expect at evey step.

Wonder how slowly I should move out of his room. It is about 3 steps big! Should I inch or be brave?

There is bound to be a lot of stepping in and out and reassuring from outside. For now I am delighted with progress!

Hope that encourages some?

And he slept all night. Bubbles that is a really helpful post, thank you from me. I was wondering about the final step as before I withdrew to outside his room but he constantly called to check I was there. I will try popping in and out a bit. And might buy one of Rhodes small reading lights and start reading again! So long since have had the energy to read!

Fab news dycey well done!

I bought one of those combined torch/night light things for DD and if I sit on the floor I can use it to read.

Or get the Kindle app for your iPhone!

Like this: www.amazon.co.uk/Thomas-Friends-Glow-Light-2009/dp/B002CZQ1I6/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1298795242&sr=8-6