Don’t want to do CC – is ignoring cries of ‘Mummy’ the same thing though?

[Ktay]

DD is 21mo and since separation anxiety kicked in at 9 months I have hardly ever been able to get her off to sleep without stroking her back. I?m OK with this when it works quickly but increasingly ? particularly now she?s got the vocab ? there is lots of buggering around demanding different soft toys and extra stories before I can even get her into her cot. Then it often takes her ages to switch off and I think the stroking is actually proving a bit overstimulating. But whenever I try and stop she?ll say ?Mummy stroke!? so I have to just stand there getting a dead arm until she finally drifts off.

I?ve had a couple of half-hearted attempts at gradual withdrawal (need to buy and read the book properly though) but she still insists on the stroking. The only thing that has been vaguely successful is telling her I?m just going to get a glass of water or similar and sometimes she?ll drift off of her own accord by the time I get back. This is usually after a lot of back-stroking though.

I know she can self-settle as DH (when he?s around ? he travels a lot) and nursery can just stick her in a cot and she?ll drift off. The reason I?m particularly keen to sort the problem is that the later she goes down (and when it?s me it?s a long, drawn-out process), the more likely she is to wake during the night and to start the day at 5-something. I aim for an early bedtime whenever possible but with nursery pick-ups this isn?t always feasible.

Anyway, that is all a lot of waffle before getting to the nub of my question, which is: can I get away with ignoring the ?Mummy!? cries for a few mins and seeing what happens? CC isn?t for me but would this essentially be the same thing? I?m a bit worried that this is an attachment issue so don?t want to do anything to make that worse. I think that in trying to avoid the crying, I?ve generally always been a bit quick to respond to the slightest grizzle ? so that prob hasn?t helped matters.

Thanks for reading and for any thoughts or helpful tips.

Well done dycey, hope you had/have a similar performance tonight.

I have delegated bedtime to DH the last few nights but was keen to try out some of the new tips tonight. So I explained a few times today that there wouldn't be any stroking 'because mummy's fingers are tired' (is that one of the ones you suggested dycey??) and although she protested a bit once in the cot, she gave up after a few cries of 'mummy stroke'. I sang for ages but at least I don't have the dead arm. V. pleased.

Oh brilliant kyat! Thanks notsopukymummy! Good ideas.

Maybe these children are more adaptable than we ever fear?

Today no nap from ds - I got him to sleep but put him in bed and he awoke and was full of beans. So no chance to consolidate the not patting - he fell asleep on his milk!

I bet he wakes in the night overtired and gets up at 5am. Pessimistic me.

How did it go in the end? DD was up loads between 11 and midnight then up for the day at 5.30am. This evening went well - no stroking and not quite so much singing required.

Oh great about the no stroking - me too today! Although he asked for just a little bit so I said no no I need to read and he really didn't mind at all.

Last night one wake and up at 5am as predicted. Need to keep that nap going! Sometimes he just doesn't want it though.

Hope tonight is better

Catch you in the morning!

Hope you had a better night last night, we did - through till 5am when I heard her resettle herself, which was a turn up for the books. Only managed an extra half hour or so though (and of course I didn't get back to sleep).

Just had a shocker putting her down though, ended with both of us in tears . In fairness to DD I think she might be coming down with something as she has a bit of a cough and wasn't her usual self this morning. She was more insistent about the 'mummy stroke' although calmed down just before I was about to give in and start the strokes (it was verging on tears). But then after a few minutes she started throwing her two soft toys out of the cot (dunno whether deliberate) and then demanding 'mummy hug' and 'book!'.

I couldn't really do the no-talking thing with all this going on and I'm afraid I got a bit tetchy when explaining about no more books, which can't have helped matters. When she realised there was no negotiating about the books she started crying and it ended up in screams, which didn't improve when I picked her up and gave her a cuddle (she just said 'bed'). She went off quite quickly after that (with strokes) but I find it horrible when a cuddle doesn't calm her down (happens fairly often) and I'm not confident of a settled night after that performance. Which is a bit of a pain as DH is away and the combo of repeated early wakings and first-trimester fatigue are starting to take their toll.

Sorry to whinge on but am a bit disheartened that the apparent improvements don't seem to be sticking...

So all quite stressful and I'm not sure who was

oops sorry meant to delete that last bit obv. And I'd previewed!

Ah third nights! They test the resolve of the parent. Mine did exactly the same. Stood up and pestered me to pat or stroke. Cried a bit. I talked to him a bit to say I am right next to him but reading my book. Still waiting to see what he does.

Didn't want any books.. This never happens. But I was at work today - first day after ten days at home with him. Maybe it was that which unsettled him? Or over excitement at having both grandparents looking after him?

First harder night in this programme and ktay I am really sorry it was the same for you. Just hope if we stick to it they will settle down.

He not asleep yet so hopefully I won't be posting any more to say it went worse tonight!

He also threw teddies out of bed! He told me his sleeping bag was not comfy too - gave him benefit of the doubt and straightened it quite a few times but I dare say that was an physical attention seeking trick. Sound cynical but really am not. I would l LOVE to soothe to sleep every night but cannot manage the broken nights which follow. Part if me would love to co sleep. I slept in parents bed til 2 and a half anyway. But we didn't take that road!

Oh dear - commiserations! Onwards and upwards. Hope he's sound asleep by now and you're in for a settled night, esp if you've got work tomorrow. It is really useful being able to compare notes and share setbacks 'real time'.

Completely agree with you, if it didn't have an effect on the rest of the night I would be happy soothing to sleep - assuming that would be compatible with DC2's needs as well!

Oh yes there is dc2 too! Forgot that was one of the reasons we are doing this!

Having done cc twice I can be confident that this is better and kinder - but it is slower!

Cc was instant (after one evening) but so horrible to do. I don't think I have the guts Now.

Sleep tight.

Hope things are back on track for you dycey. Sleep training currently on hold in this household as DD has come down with some sort of lurgy - I fear it may be her second bout of hand foot & mouth. Def not having the best effect on her sleep, I only managed a broken 4.5 hours last night (was home alone) zzzz

Just thought I'd say that letting DC's settle on their own does seem to help the night and morning wakings. For mornings, try a light on a timer and say they can stay asleep until their light comes on.

I tell my DS that he will sleep in his bed and I sit outside his bedroom (with door open a little, saying it's bed time, no more talking, time for sleep - hoping to reduce interaction as time goes by) we do have some shouting / crying but it is improving.

I think it takes a couple of weeks to really see the benefit. Chart your improvements so you see the results you are getting - less settling time and less wakings.

I've seen two sleep consultants including Chireal Swallow, who I really liked, so if you've got any questions, let me know.

Thanks Misty. Have heard it can take 3 weeks or longer so like to think I'm not being overoptimistic. It's just so dispiriting when things look like they're going backwards! Charting sounds like a good idea.

O bad luck having illness throwing you off! So predictable. I have to make ds nap earlier so he is tired by bed! Yesterday he napped 1.15 til 2.45 and just was not tired at bedtime, only falling asleep after much fuss and conversation at 8.40. My poor hungry brother was waiting in the living room.

This transition to no nap is a pain! Need to get him to nap early and take afternoon exercise but sometimes it doesn't fit with life!

Hope she gets better quickly!

And now my ds is ill - up and down all night - fever and wide awake or stirring every 30 mins needing reassurance I was there.

He used to sleep better when ill because he used to fall asleep alone and didn't expect me to be there every time he became slightly awake. Definitely strengthened my resolve to withdraw.

Misty, would love to know if you think gradual withdrawal does get there? I totally agree that settling alone majes sll thr difference. My ds slept really well from 12 months to nearly 2. I was firmer then and did cc when necessary. But now I am less confident it would be right. It would be traumatic for me! II had got to yr point of sitting outside before he got ill a few months ago now.

I was not sure how to move on from that as he called out for reassurance a lot!

Oh no dycey, only just seen this. Had been thinking of you and imagining you making great progress while we were out of action. Sorry your DS has been unwell - is he over it now? DD has had a few similar bouts of stirring again just as I've been getting back off to sleep.

DD is over her hand foot and mouth now so last night we started the gentle sleep training again. She went off with me singing next to her bed and slept through till gone 6am, which is great by her standards. The previous night was awful (see above) so she had a big lunchtime nap to recover. Maybe this is a sign that she still needs to hang on to a longish nap so she's not overtired? Who knows.

Based on previous experience I am hopeful we might have one more evening of straightforward settling and then I'm braced for another crap day 3. Let's see...

Oh glad she's better. Mine had hand foot and mouth twice too. Horrendous illness. No, ds has had scarlet fever this time. Honestly!!!!

Sleep has been tough of course. Back to patting!

Oh no - sounds like you've had more than your fair share of illnesses. Hope he makes a speedy recovery from here on in.

Had shocker getting DD off last night but then she slept through till gone 6 again (heard her squawk then settle self back to sleep a couple of times). Felt so bad about last night that I resumed the stroking again tonight. Let's see whether she's up again in the night as a result...

Oh good luck. I feel the patting thing is cumulative. My ds always gets into waking up for comfort gradually after getting used to whatever comfort it is. As though he has to learn to expect it. One night is never a disaster.

Ds is better in some ways but So grumpy and unlike himself that u am not bothering to start the withdrawal until he has finished his antibiotics.

At least I don't have cc on the horizon. Hope very much that ktay you can tell me you have succeeded before I start again!!!

How the hell do people cope with more than one child when one is ill?

Glad your DS is getting better. Think you're wise to hold off for now although I'm afraid I'm not optimistic that I will have many encouraging tales for you by the time you start again.

This is v. off-topic (sorry) but the context is relevant - found out on Sun I've had a missed miscarriage . So unless DD seems up for settling easily with a few songs, I'm going with the easy stroking option until all this is over as I don't think the stress of sleep training (on nights where she's not up for it) is going to help my general demeanour over the next couple of weeks.

That said, even stroking doesn't seem to be the 'easy' option any more as I had a shocker this evening just stroking her (took 1h 15 to get her off to sleep with loads of beggaring around requesting books, water, songs etc) so looks like things are going from bad to worse!

Sorry to put a bit of a downer on the thread but wanted you to know why there might be a bit of a hiatus in the sleep training on our side. (I am OK in myself so far but it hasn't really sunk in yet - I'm sure it will when I have my scan to confirm on Mon). So now the boot's on the other foot and I'm hoping you will have a great success story for me in a few weeks' time!

O poor you ktay - my utmost sympathies and a virtual hug. So sorry to hear that. Are you far along?

Definitely take the path of least resistance - maybe make sure she is well and truly tired before bed? There is nothing more depressing and annoying than sitting for ages with little ones while they don't go to sleep. It always really annoys me.

Will check back to see you if revive the thread every now and then.

So sorry to hear your news. Be easy on yourself!

Thanks dycey - scan today confirmed no progress in the last 8 days. So I should have been around 10.5w today but the pregnancy only got as far as 5w or so. I am feeling pretty philosophical about it (pregnancy was planned but virtually an immaculate conception based on dates - so some pretty ropey old sperm was probably involved) but a bit apprehensive about the next steps (probably an ERPC next week if things don't happen naturally before then). And when I finally get some sort of 'conclusion' I'm sure it will all seem much more real.

But back to the topic: like I say, I'm still testing the gradual withdrawal but only when she seems up for it. She's got an ear infection now (which prob hasn't helped the sleep) so we're on the ABs in this household too. Do keep the thread going if you feel like it as will be keen to see some encouraging stories of your progress!

DD said 'Mummy fingers tired, lie down' when I tried to stroke her at naptime. And she's just said 'Mummy go' and sent me downstairs to get a glass of water (one of my usual ruses to leave the room while she's still awake)! This is after a week of not really trying the sleep training in the interests of having an easy life. I'm sure this will be a one-off but let's see...

Hope all going well your end dycey

PS and she's slept till 6.30am the last two days (did have a night waking both nights though).

This is most welcome given the other crap I've been contending with of late.

Ah ktay well that's really good news! I started theno stroke gradual withdrawal a while ago and in a not regimented way am edging myself out of the room.

His room is tiny but I am now on night 2 of the last viable bit. He always asks to he stroked - always - but accepts that I won't.

My current thing is that he checks I am there constantly verbally and my verbal reassurance is a replacement for the patting.

My plan is to stay in eye shot for a while but verbally withdraw over a few days. Then tackle leaving the room and respond infrequently from outside it. What a palava but better than trauma of cc for me!

Wonder if popping in and out is the thing?

I did try getting him to nap in bed but it backfired so I have given up!