'Sleep training' - not working!

[fifitot]

Apologise in advance if anyone sick of my moaning as am on tons of sleep threads. However am very desperate.

DS is nearly 7m and I return to work in 12 days time! He sleeps in his cot in our room and currently wakes every 3 hours and wants a feed. Not sure if this is comfort or hunger but at his age I suspect the former as he is currently weaning slowly onto food and also BFs during day.

Naps well during day - 3 naps, put into cot without a feed and sleeps well, the longest is about 1.5 hours. Has a good bedtime routine of bath, BF and put into cot usually half awake at 7. However from 10 that is when all goes to pot. Wakes every 2-3 hours but the worst of it is, doesn't settle well after a feed and thrashes around crying and I have to settle him in his cot by holding his arms down! (Wish I'd swaddled him - too late now.)

I have not had a good night's sleep for the whole of his life so far and am on my knees. The thought of returning to work like this terrifies me.

Have tried pat/shush and also cc to some extent but the improvements don't stick iyswim. He goes off to sleep after a bit but at the next waking does it all again - crying up to 2 hours. Have kept this up for a few days but there is no long term change.

Not sure what to do? Can he really be hungry and need a full BF at 10, 1, 4 and 6? Can I reasonably cut one or two out or will I have to just cut all out in case he gets confused.

Please please post anything useful. Thanks.

We cut out all night feed when my DS turned 7 months and when I was happy with the amount of solids he took in during the day. He had gotten himself into a habit of waking for a breastfeed at 11 and at 4, and even introducing solids did not change that. We cut out all night feeds at once for the sake of consistency. DH had to take over and cuddled, rocked and shush patted DS back to sleep. The first night was very difficult as it took DH over 1.5 hours to get DS back to sleep and I nearly gave in. DS then slept until the morning at 6:30 without a feed, so obviously there was no real need for the feed! Did the same the next couple of nights and after a few days he no longer woke up until between 5 and 7. We have had several 11-12 hour stretches since (he is now 8.5 months) and this was only interrupted by illness, teething and moving house. I would advise to cut out the first feed and see how long he sleeps then. Cutting out the first one is the easiest, and he might skip the next one - like my DS.

Also, look at how much your DS naps during the day and how the naps are structured. We found that our DS napped too much to make up for what he missed during the night. He also would have a very long morning nap, often 1.5 hours. Apparently long morning naps are often the cause for early morning waking, so watch out for this too. Best to have the long nap in the middle of the day (but maybe your DS is already doing that).

Hope this helps a bit.

Thankyou so much for replying.
He isn't really established on solids yet so could still be hunger.

He will be starting nursery soon and moving into own room and don't know if it is best to stop now or wait until the changes and he's settled a bit.

He naps every 2-3hours in the day, 9ish, 12ish and a short 45m one at around 4. Does this seem too many. Longest one after lunch.

45 minutes at 4 does sound a bit long. You could always try and cut it down to 20 minutes to take the edge off to get him through to bedtime. But 2-3 hours in total sounds pretty normal for that age. IIRC Gina Ford recommends 45 minutes in the morning and 2 hours over lunch and a mini nap around 4 in case the lunch time nap was less than 2 hours.
Not sure when to make changes to your son's routine. Maybe wait until he is in own room? I am not so experienced myself but I have to say we stopped the feeding in the night just after xmas and moved house in mid January. Not ideal but the work was not in vain either.

Thanks - food for thought. In some ways it might be better to do all the changes at once so at least there are no more suprises for him on the horizon!

Lots and lots of changes are going to happen in his life in quick succession here. This could all take a while, try to phase things in so not too much happens at once?

What vez said about night feeds. From around 6 months when she was having some solids, we decided the milk bar would be closed from 10.30 pm til 6.30/7.00. It took about a week for DD2 to work this out. If she cried for long than about a minute in the night, DH got up and offered her water/pat/putting back into bed etc. We also checked that her sleep environment was nice and secure, well ventilated etc. We did find she was waking up a bit dehydrated, so made sure she was getting enough to eat and drink during the day, and was busy enough that she was knackered by the time 7pm came round. It was hard work for that week but worth it. Waking up in the night became quite boring and unrewarding for her..

Good luck. I feel your pain..

Thankyou! Moving into own room by weekend but will keep up the nightfeeds for a while as starting nursery soon and bound to be a bit unsettled I guess, especially since he won't be able to BF during the day!

I've found that as we've gradually weaned her off the boob, it helped to identify which one was her 'favourite' feed (it happens to be the morning one.) And we still do that one now. The rest of the time she has bottles, though of course she eats solids to go with this.

Good luck! It does all get better. I remember quite a few months when I just felt like I was walking through toffee during the day, I felt so tired. We've all been there. Just remember when you're up in the night, many other mothers around the country are up at the same time as you, doing the same thing. This too will pass.

Thanks. Wading through toffee is a good analogy as to how currently feel!

we found the ferber reduced timing of feeds worked a treat- so time how long baby feeds and reduce by 1 min each time. feels a bit less brutal than trying to cut a whole feed in one go. we combined this with sleep training to get babies to self settle (so not requiring rocking, patting yada yada) and in fact they ended up cutting out the feeds by themselves (I guess there came a point where waking up for a 3 min feed wasnt worth it!) my memory is this happened by about day 3-5 (have done it 3 times so they all mush into one a bit- number four just slept through by herself glory be)- first time we of course woke up to complete silence at 6.30 am and instantly thought DS must have died in the night!!!!!
good luck anyway- good thing to remember is how crucial it is for babies to learn to sleep through the night- all the adults i know who were habitual night wakers now suffer from shocking insomnia/night waking and so on....

Hi Fifi, I remember you from another thread about sleep a while ago.

I spoke to my HV about my DD waking every 2-3 hours. DD was just over 7 months (she's now 8 months). The HV said that DD didn't need feeding during the night at all! She suggested controlled crying. That night, DD woke at 10 like normal, but then instead of going to sleep when I put her in her cot, she cried every time I put her down. So I kept on picking her up and feeding her. After about an hour, I went to bed and DH did the controlled crying. I'm sure you know this already, but he went in after 5 mins, then 10, then every 15. It took over an hour for her to go to sleep and then she woke every couple of hours for the rest of the night. I fed her every time and she went back to sleep.

The next night, she didn't wake up until 5.30! I couldn't believe it! Apart from one night when she woke about 3 and a couple of times when she's done a poo, she usually sleeps until about 5.

I guess we were lucky that she got the message really quickly. The HV said not to pick DD up, that it would work better if DH did it and if the cot is in DD's room.

Someone else said that it's not enough that they don't fall asleep on the boob when you put them to bed, that's it's best to leave 5-10 minutes so they fully settle themselves. So I've started reading a story! DD looked at me as if I was mad to start off with, and cried all the way through it a couple of nights, but now I think she likes it!

It is horrible hearing them cry, but she needed to learn how to go back to sleep by herself.

Thanks for your replies all.

Liloo - am not sure I understand. You did CC and still fed to sleep? Can you clarify please as it might be a way forward!

Houseof7 - not sure I could reduce the feeds when BFing? Did you manage it just by stopping and prising them off the nipple?

I agree though - I need to help DS sleep and am not feeling bad about trying to find a way to do this. I think our whole household will improve when DS sleeps better!

Fifi - I found that we all slept better once DD was in her own room. We went from 5 feeds a night to 2 5/6 minutes feeds. I think she could see and smell me so wanted me when she woke. Once she moved rooms I used to lie in bed and count slowly to 50 and if she was still crying then I would go in and feed her. More often than not I never got to 20 as she stirred, grizzled and went back to sleep.

Hello Fifi.

I remember you from the previous thread about our awful 6mnth olds.

I'm afraid I have nothing to offer except sympathy. I have tried various methods and nothing seems to be sticking. I have now accepted defeat and she is co-sleeping half the night.

Let me know if you find a cure!

My son is nine months and im on my knees with his night waking wanting feeding . He is on formula now though. But reached my limit this week, its got to the stage of him screaming or its gonna be me! But anyway once I decided enough is enough I felt better and only wished I had done it before. I shh patted him for hour and a half, didnt Speak at all and no lights at all and it worked the first night! He woke again at half five but I left him to it and he self settled. And the next day too I left him to it after he woke after forty min nap which I strung out until after lunch and he slept for another forty minutes. Absolutely unheard of! Three nights in a row now. Its taking me a while to adjust to as im pm used to waking ! Really suggest sticking it out. Also I cut his milk back to just three bottles a day and his food intake immediately doubled. Less soggy nappies at night too!

Around this age they also start teething & often can wake up crying for this reason - haven't read the whole thread but you could try offering boiled water. In the end with ds1 I went cold turkey but he was a terrible teether & didn't really sleep till he was 3 - sorry probably not what you want to hear but some babies just don't sleep. Ds2 though was never any trouble & cut his teeth without a murmur (compared to ds1).

We did controlled crying when DD wouldn't go back to sleep after being fed, but then I fed her for the rest of the night. We were planning on doing controlled crying a few nights later (at the weekend) but didn't need to because she worked it out by herself.

Thinking about it though, I'm not sure what we did would help you. It might give your LO mixed messages. I think I would put your DS in his own room and see what happens. I'd also wait a few minutes when he wakes just to see if he would go back to sleep by himself.

hello fifi

my dd is now 7.5 mths and I went back to work a month ago. This is what I did.

I decided on what part of the night was the most important to me to sleep and chose midnight to 6am. I then fed loads before bedtime, at bedtime ( supplemented the bedtime breast feed with bottle) and also introduced a dream feed - initally she was waking for it and when she stopped waking, I still gave it.

I put her in her own room and did not feed her at all between those hours. I reassured her every now and again but most of the time she just moaned rather than cried. In a few days she learnt not to wake for these hrs. Then I brought the dream feed back to 11pm and then 10pm. Then I substituted it for the bottle and she refused it so i knew she wasn't hungry.

She now sleeps 7 til 7 and loves her sleep. She also does 3 hrs total in day. This is quite normal.

The most important thing is - decide what yuo want to do and stick to it. YOU are the one in control and you can choose how your baby behaves. ( I learnt this 3rd time round!)

Hi all, I have a similar problem and am getting desperate too. My 8 month old will only sleep after breast-feeding whilst snuggled up in bed with me. This is for naps and bedtime. He wakes about 15 times per night. I start work next month and I am worried. I also don't want to do controlled crying if possible (not judging, just don't want to do it).I wanted to ask Missalien if she did controlled crying for an hour and a half or if she stayed with him while he cried. Any other suggestions would be appreciated....

Hi pickles his cot is next to my bed. I stood there the whole time until he eventually settled . I patted him gently and said shh when he cried cut he was never screaming or going nuts bless him. I put the v pillow on top of the cot as it was hard going! So worth it though its been great his sleep pattern has adjusted immediately

Thanks for ideas and replies. Something has to give. Still waking at 10, 12 and 4 for feeds and am also on my knees. Can't tell if he's hungry or just comfort that's the trouble.

Tried cc and he just cried loudly on and off for 2 hours last night until I gave in.......

I might just offer a bottle at the 10pm feed and then see what happens. Just really confused about what to do next.

God I'm soooooooooooo tired.

Hi fifi. Just 2 suggestions. Is your LO rolling yet and does he want to sleep on his front? Have you tried rocking the cot to get him to sleep (that's what we do with dc3,7m)?

Thanks Loo - no not rolling yet so don't really want to try him on front. Has just started to sit up so maybe that's an issue.

Am going to try a bottle at his 10pm feed to feed him up or maybe do that as his usual BF and then do next feed as bottle.......

Maybe get DH to do pat/shush next to him tonight.

I would get a sleep consultant in if I could afford it as have lost sight of the wood for the trees iyswim!

get your husband to do it. Part of the problem is that YOU are a walking food supply. he sees you and expects your boob, because that's what you have always done at night. Your husband hasn't ever fed him, so when he sees your husband she should more easily accept that the boob isn't coming.

Thanks - walking food supply pretty much sums up how I feel! I am a bit miserable with it all too tbh and yes will get DH to go in to him tonight. At least it's the weekend and we can take it easy next day.

I did similar to Liloo - DD was waking hourly on a bad night and often I'd feed her, put her down and then have to go back in again multiple times (i.e every 10 minutes).

Reached rock bottom when she was 9 months and did controlled crying - as in, I went in to feed her but if she cried within the next hour I left her for approx. 20 mins at a time (going in to reassure if she sounded really distraught). Most importantly (I think) I stopped taking her in my bed. She had to spend all night in her cot.

A month on from this, she is sleeping through the odd night and even the worst nights I only have to go in twice which is A LOT better.

Her daytime naps have improved hugely as well although I've not done any sleep training for them.